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View Poll Results: Would you prefer the KTo frames in steel, aluminum, or either one
Steel 85 45.70%
Aluminum 59 31.72%
Either one is fine 42 22.58%
Voters: 186. You may not vote on this poll

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  #121  
Old 04-23-2012, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 762shooter View Post
Anyone know if the frame submitted by KTO is a 9mm or a 40 S&W? The 40 S&W version makes it much easier to change calibers.
The frame is the same, whether you have a 9mm, .40, or .357SIG upper. You're probably thinking SIG P228 vs. P229, in which case, once again, the 80% frame dimensions are still the same. Whether it'll hold under .40 recoil is another question, but some people (including one poster here) made .40 SIGs on it, and they worked. I'm planning to make a .40 one, as well, give it a few months. Most of the frame parts are also interchangeable between SIG P228 and 9mm SIG P229, some frame parts aren't interchangeable between SIG P229 9mm and SIG P229 .40, chief among them is the locking block.
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Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


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Last edited by nick; 04-23-2012 at 10:22 AM..
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  #122  
Old 04-23-2012, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueSniper View Post
My biggest unknown is the cost of the parts for the frame. There are A LOT of parts!
To get the idea for the highest cost of the parts, check out Top Gun Supply or Numrich (and despair ). For much lower priced parts, or better yet, parts kits (yes, they occasionally show up, and I don't mean Dlask ones, either. There's a guy on Gunbroker out of Florida who sells parts kits from the guns where receivers were destroyed by the PDs he buys parts from. I bought a complete SIG P228 parts kit from him without the barrel for $180 or so, and the barrel for $120), check out Gunbroker and Ebay on a regular basis. You can then buy whatever you're still missing from Top Gun Supply or Numrich.

For the upper, you can buy one of the caliber conversion kits, they're available in .22, 9mm, .357SIG, and .40, and they go for $250-350. The good part is that they're still manufactured.

It's not as clearcut as buying 1911 or AR parts, which everyone and his grandmother makes, but it's doable. I spent about 3 months accumulating parts for 3 SIGs, and I now have 3 complete sets (1 SIG P228, 1 9mm SIG P229, and 1 .40 SIG P229) with extras. While I was looking for the best deals, I missed more of those than I scored, and there're many not-so-good deals (but still better than Numrich or TGS) out there.
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  #123  
Old 04-25-2012, 11:52 AM
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Default Count me in

I will happily go on the list for 1, possibly 2.
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  #124  
Old 04-25-2012, 8:14 PM
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How many more frame commitments do we need to be good to go?
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  #125  
Old 04-25-2012, 9:03 PM
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I'm in for at least 1 with a rail. Possibly 2 if i can pull together some more cash. Don't care what material as long as it holds up.
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  #126  
Old 04-26-2012, 8:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmacpolo View Post
How many more frame commitments do we need to be good to go?
umm ive been trying to keep the list somewhat standardized, but you can interpret this however you like.

Interested before recent update
Intimid8tor +1
ptoguy2002 +1
njineermike +2
cmartin72 +1 possible 2
Lostsheep +2
Intimid8tor interested 1, possible 2
askrobert +1
sprat possible 1
Frogskins +5-6, prefer railed

Post recent update
bmacpolo +1 prefer railed
goober +2 prefer railed
cmartin72 prefer 6061, prefer railed
jingerale +2, interested in either 6061 or 7075
Cannon-Arms +2, prefer railed
phyta_rx +2, possible 3, prefer railed
MountainShooter +2, possible 2, prefer 7075, railed
Japedo interested
Musashi +1, possible 3
762shooter +4, prefer railed
savs2k interested, prefer railed
peterabbits +2 prefer 7075
bigcalidave +1 prefer railed
ElectronWrangler +1, prefer rail
RogueSniper +1 prefer rail
Dakine_surf +1 prefer rail
rubber duckie +1 needs rail
LedStew +1 possible 2
misin4mati0n +1 possible 2 prefer railed
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  #127  
Old 04-26-2012, 9:30 AM
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+2 prefer 7075 railed
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  #128  
Old 04-26-2012, 10:27 AM
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looks like 45 maybe, give or take. almost halfway there.

(incidentally, i was "in" for 1 or 2 as of post #19 in this thread.... well before the "recent update")
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Last edited by goober; 04-26-2012 at 10:32 AM..
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  #129  
Old 04-26-2012, 10:57 AM
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I'll take two!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sent you PM.
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  #130  
Old 04-27-2012, 1:31 PM
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Ok

I will again be happy to answer more questions

1st when i said I was done building I meant all building!!! ak's, ar's (did one 0% DSA with hand tools) Fn fal ( I did a cast receiver with hand tools) I am just got too many builds and extra kits, plus I am married now so I am done with building 80% frames but I may get one of these as I have a spare sig factory parts kit

if the guy in florida has PD destoryed guns that is the route to go down and get the small parts from other suppliers or post wants on varies websites you may get a hit, for a while CDNN had sig 228 uppers for sale I bought a few of those they were nice
buying P-226 parts is ok except you can't use the locking block , barrel & slide, grips

40 cal, 40 cal, 40cal, keep reading about doing a 40 cal
if you have not done a 9mm, you are putting too much pressure on yourself. do a 9mm first, once you have done one build the rest are easier remember these are range guns for plinking, you do not want to use one for self defense.
also I used a steel 80% frame for my 40 cal build, I like my fingers and eyes, so go real slow on this one

the original 80% frames by KT were two halves brazed together

KT has e-mailed me for my old info I will dig it out for him tonight, plus all the old plans to sent along to be posted here.

I did not post here to brag, but to help out a new group getting started, one of you will raise above the rest and show others how this is done

things you will need will be good drill bits titanium, hand files of different sizes, widths and cutting surfaces, round ones may come in handy, I used a dremel for cutting the rails so get the drum sanders, small round sanders( these you will want to glue together to cut the rails for the slide), sand paper of different textures, metal grinders small thin ones, small hammers, hockey puck
oh the other thing I vaguely remember was that the grip screws need to be reamed and taped they will need to be ordered

the finished product will need to be anodized, in the first go around it was still legal to sent these out to be done with out having them booked in with a FFL, now either you do it yourself or do a anodizing party or book it

sprat
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  #131  
Old 04-27-2012, 1:35 PM
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ah yes! THAT Capt Jack!
once again, thanks for helping us all out here, sprat!
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  #132  
Old 04-27-2012, 2:03 PM
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Exclamation YET ANOTHER NEW DESIGN DEVELOPMENT

Ok folks, I spoke at length with Rick on the phone today. There are some new design developments and a bunch of new info to think about:

We're back to a brazed 2-piece design again. Rick wants to make these frames so that they can be built into 226, 228, or 229 (which is what it sounds like most folks here want), and the 1-piece EDM magwell design that was being considered would have been limited to a single model.
This means 7075 is out because he can't braze it. So our choices are steel or 6061-T6.
Rick has assured me that the brazed joint (in either case) is not a weakness or an issue. It runs the entire length of the gun, and the forces acting on the frame are balanced with respect to where the seam is. There is no reason to suspect it would fail. It's good up until 2100F in steel, and while it won't blue perfectly, other treatments will work fine (this applies to the KT1911 frame as well). The 6061 frame will anodize fine, and while it should not be heated above 450F or it will lose its T6 temper, most other coatings or treatments one would apply to an aluminum frame don't require that much heat. In any event I believe Sig makes frames from aluminum castings, and billet is probably going to be stronger that that.

So anyway. Steel or 6061. It will be possible to make a 226, 228, or 229 from it. Accessory rail will be included unless we say no.

The difference in finishing these to end up with the various models is primarily in the position of the trigger and takedown pin holes, length of the dustcover, trigger slot, and mag well. The frame as received will be ready to turn into a P226 with just the cutting of the slide rails, drilling of the takedown & trigger pin holes, and the hammer strut hole. Making a P228 or P229 will require additional ops.

Rick is going to offer a combo 1911/Sig jig to help in finishing these. Its his basic 1911 jig with holes for the Sig on the other side. For anyone that has a KTO 1911 jig already that wants the Sig stuff added to it, he will do that for shipping + a small fee.

That's all for now.
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  #133  
Old 04-27-2012, 7:44 PM
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Cautiously in for two, prefer steel over aluminum. prefer railed.

I might even be looking to acquire a combo 1911/Sig jig if the price is right. I'm thinking about some 1911 frames in the future.

I will admit, the brazed two piece frames leave me with paused caution. I'd really love to hear from someone with a previous long term build with brazed frames. How will/do they hold up over a lifetime?

Would it be possible to TIG the frame in several spots, then clean welded area to beef them up? Is this necessary? Am I being a idiot about this?
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  #134  
Old 04-27-2012, 8:08 PM
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regarding the brazed frame-
KTO has been producing 80% handgun frames this way for 10 years or more.
the original Sig frames he sold in the 100's in the early years of this decade were built into functional arms by a multitude of builders.
i invite anyone to search and discover any threads on the various gunsmithing/ arms building forums (and many build threads exist) that document failures or issues with this design. i don't know of any.
for me its a non-issue. show me some evidence of a problem and i may change my tune.
likewise with steel vs. 6061. all of the original KTO Sig frames were aluminum. commercial Sig frames are aluminum. i'm willing to be convinced why steel is needed, but until them i like the lower cost and ease of machining of 6061.
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  #135  
Old 04-27-2012, 8:19 PM
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Goober you are right on the braze. I did make some steel 228's, but only 200 because people did not like the heavy frame. We beat a 1911 and a 228 (alum) with a 24 oz framing hammer and not one part of the braze joint failed. The base metal failed, the braze joint was stronger than the base metal.
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  #136  
Old 04-27-2012, 8:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTO View Post
Goober you are right on the braze. I did make some steel 228's, but only 200 because people did not like the heavy frame. We beat a 1911 and a 228 (alum) with a 24 oz framing hammer and not one part of the braze joint failed. The base metal failed, the braze joint was stronger than the base metal.
Hey! It's the man himself!
Welcome to CalGuns, KTO!

There you have it folks, straight from the source.

(i stand corrected on my "all" statement above... i guess there were some steel Sig 80's made after all...)
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  #137  
Old 04-27-2012, 8:41 PM
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I may be interested. Another Sig never hurts
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  #138  
Old 04-27-2012, 9:20 PM
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Thanks Goober. Do they let Montana's on this site?
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  #139  
Old 04-27-2012, 10:06 PM
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Thanks KTO and goober.

Please understand, I certainly am not trying to sow seeds of discontent, quite the opposite. Like I said in another thread, I'm doing this as much for my own enjoyment as well as for family heirlooms for my children.

OK, enough of that...my plans still stand.

I'm in for 2 frames, 6061 or steel is fine, want railed. and still looking to get 1911/sig jig also.
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  #140  
Old 04-27-2012, 10:11 PM
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Sorry, guys, I've been neglecting this thread, with work and all. I'll tally the current totals from this and other forums on Sunday. It looks like we're about halfway there.
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Some people are so open minded, their brains have fallen out.


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  #141  
Old 04-27-2012, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon-Arms View Post
...

Please understand, I certainly am not trying to sow seeds of discontent, quite the opposite. ...
no worries... several folks in this and the KT 1911 GB voiced concerns about the brazed frame with respect to both durability and limitations it might impose on surface treatment options... i was just trying to speak to those concerns in general, not singling out your post in particular.

but anyway welcome aboard! glad to have you on team KTO Sig 2012!
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  #142  
Old 04-28-2012, 12:23 AM
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Educate me here (the only Sig I own is an old P5), the p229 9mm, 40S&W, and 357 Sig are all aluminum frames with a steel slides, right?

With brazing, how would the 6061-T6 look after hard anodizing?
The brazing won't anodize will it?

Still mulling over 1 or 2 frames...
I gotta finish a few projects first...
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  #143  
Old 04-28-2012, 5:57 AM
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As to the braze, it will take all finishes.
You will not see the braze line with anodizing with the acceptation of surface finish i.e. sand it smooth.

We use this method in manufacturing for all types of parts and all are anodized.

Fear not brother smithers, all will be well with your Sig.
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  #144  
Old 04-28-2012, 9:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-V View Post
Educate me here (the only Sig I own is an old P5), the p229 9mm, 40S&W, and 357 Sig are all aluminum frames with a steel slides, right?

With brazing, how would the 6061-T6 look after hard anodizing?
The brazing won't anodize will it?

Still mulling over 1 or 2 frames...
I gotta finish a few projects first...
Yes you are correct about the P229.

As KTO explained to me, the braze on the 6061-T6 frames is also aluminum (unlike on the steel frames where the braze involves the use of metals different from that of the frame itself).
As such there will be a faint seam that will need to be feathered/smoothed out, but since it is all aluminum it will anodize or take any kind of finish exactly the same as the rest of the frame.
Just don't heat it above 450F or it will lose its temper, like anything made of 6061-T6.
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  #145  
Old 04-28-2012, 11:12 AM
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A light/accessory rail has nothing to do with the function of the gun. KT offers his KT1911 with integral light rail as well.

I would be in for 1-3 in 6061 or steel. *Corrected regarding aluminum and neccesity of HA* Al is GTG plain or coated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by njineermike View Post
The question is; Does a railed frame still qualifyas an 80% unit?

Last edited by d-r; 05-01-2012 at 11:45 AM..
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  #146  
Old 04-28-2012, 3:33 PM
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d-r, hard anodized is surly a nice touch, but not need. H/A is a battleship gray, Sig's (or other Alum guns) are not H/A, they are black and now some of the other colors (pink, red, purple, etc). I have been using an unfinished alum frame for years (2002) just to see how it holds up. If you oil it (and clean it) after your day at the range it will last your life time.

Hope that helps.
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  #147  
Old 04-29-2012, 10:03 AM
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I had no idea. I guess I was laboring under outdated concepts. I am absolutely amazed that you have been using an *unfinished* AL frame for a decade(!!!!) I guess that changes things. What sorts of finishes are durable and decent looking? I have never painted a gun, but have heard of various things like Duracoat, Cerakote, Alumahyde, etc. Guess I am still a greenhorn in a lot of ways. Thanks for the response, can't wait to see your updated handiwork Rick.
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  #148  
Old 04-30-2012, 6:05 AM
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d-r, most of my guns are Rustolum. It is easy to change for the environment.
It is all what you like.
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  #149  
Old 04-30-2012, 7:45 AM
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Are these frames spec'ed from the US lower or German?
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  #150  
Old 04-30-2012, 1:05 PM
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I found some blueprints online for the P228 on flickr.com. I haven't had a chance to go over them.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77356801@N00/page10/

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  #151  
Old 04-30-2012, 7:08 PM
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all sig alum frames are anodized its part of the factory process

a unanodized frame can be left outoors for a few years and with naturally harden

sprat
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  #152  
Old 04-30-2012, 11:33 PM
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Put me in for two, steel with rail!
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  #153  
Old 05-03-2012, 9:37 PM
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RogueSniper RogueSniper is offline
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I just bought a P228 slide ... I'm halfway there! hahahaha! Let's get this going!
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Toys I'm looking for (PPT/used): Thompson Contender receiver and barrels
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WTS P80 Spectre, Crimson Trace (P228/P229) Formica Sample Case
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  #154  
Old 05-04-2012, 10:08 AM
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htfan htfan is offline
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Can't commit yet.

I'm very interested in either metal with rail. (I need to be able to finish the frame with hand power tools.)

Also: Build party plans?
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Last edited by htfan; 05-16-2012 at 10:47 PM..
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  #155  
Old 05-04-2012, 2:48 PM
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RogueSniper RogueSniper is offline
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Alright! Who was bidding against me for the SIG 228 parts on GB?!!!
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"You know the real difference between you and me?"
"Yeah. Denial."

Toys I'm looking for (PPT/used): Thompson Contender receiver and barrels
Cashback sites:
Huntin Obessesion / Active Junky / Dvor / Ebates
Stuff for sale:
WTS P80 Spectre, Crimson Trace (P228/P229) Formica Sample Case
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  #156  
Old 05-04-2012, 4:26 PM
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htfan htfan is offline
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Some more thoughts....

Do you think one of our forum vendors would be interested in putting together a parts kit for us??? ... for 100+ potential calgunners,...

Asked earlier but, didn't see answer: would the Sig X-Change conversion slide kits work with this frame?

Any mention of a jig for this to help with alignment of required holes?
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  #157  
Old 05-05-2012, 9:02 AM
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Again, the light/accessory rail will not make it easier or harder to complete. You will still have to:

cut the slide rails
drill the holes for takedown pin, hammer pin, and trigger pin
cut to length if making a 228/229

The frame rails WILL NOT BE CUT. You will need a drillpress, a mill, or similar to cut them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htfan View Post
+1

I'm very interested in either metal with rail. (I need to be able to finish the frame with hand power tools.)

Also: Build party plans?
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  #158  
Old 05-05-2012, 9:04 AM
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The Caliber X-Change kits will work. The timing on them is great, as otherwise you would have to buy the slide, barrel, and recoil system separately, for much more. The frame parts will be a bit more difficult to come by, but should still be available easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htfan View Post
Some more thoughts....

Do you think one of our forum vendors would be interested in putting together a parts kit for us??? ... for 100+ potential calgunners,...

Asked earlier but, didn't see answer: would the Sig X-Change conversion slide kits work with this frame?

Any mention of a jig for this to help with alignment of required holes?
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  #159  
Old 05-05-2012, 3:56 PM
jingerale jingerale is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htfan View Post
Some more thoughts....

Do you think one of our forum vendors would be interested in putting together a parts kit for us??? ... for 100+ potential calgunners,...

Asked earlier but, didn't see answer: would the Sig X-Change conversion slide kits work with this frame?

Any mention of a jig for this to help with alignment of required holes?
post #133, there will be a 1911/sig combo jig.
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  #160  
Old 05-05-2012, 4:43 PM
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darthnugget darthnugget is offline
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If these are spec'ed from the German frame, I will take 2x 6061 with rail and 1x 1911/sig jig.
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