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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 03-31-2012, 9:00 PM
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Question Rossi Circuit Judge 45LC/ .410 legal?

Ok, so I know this has been debated here but I still can't seem to get a straight answer. I called a few CA shops and some say legal, some say felony... So what's the straight answer?

We have a customer that want's the 45LC/.410 version, but he got the same answer as us calling around. What's the real deal? How are the FFL's running it in DROS? Are people buying these around CA with no issues?

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Old 03-31-2012, 9:07 PM
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They're for sale in my local gun shop. It's a .410 rifle whats the problem?
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  #3  
Old 03-31-2012, 9:20 PM
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Legal.

6-grooved barrel, so not a shotgun.

Quote:
17190.
As used in Sections 16530, 16640, 16870, and 17180, Sections 17720 to 17730, inclusive, Section 17740, subdivision (f) of Section 27555, Section 30215, and Article 1 (commencing with Section 33210) of Chapter 8 of Division 10 of Title 4,
“shotgun” means
a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.
A revolving-cylinder shotgun would be an 'assault weapon', but this Rossi avoids that.

A shotgun with a barrel less than 18" would be a SBS, but again, not a shotgun, and the barrel is 18.5".

OAL is 35.6"

See also http://www.handgunclub.com/hca/?p=2491, which has CD Michel's analysis of the Taurus and Rossi 'Judge' line.
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Old 03-31-2012, 9:21 PM
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http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...+Circuit+Judge
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  #5  
Old 03-31-2012, 10:17 PM
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hmm so if they made a street sweeper clone with a rifled barrel it would be ok?

its a good explanation as to why its legal

but i am baffled how they can possibly jel logically

if a short barrel shotgun is any thing with a barrel less than 18 that fires a shotgun shell

then would anything that fires a shotgun shell that has a barrel greater than 18 inches equal a long barrel shotgun?

but that is where i make my mistake trying to look at laws logically
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Old 03-31-2012, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
hmm so if they made a street sweeper clone with a rifled barrel it would be ok?

its a good explanation as to why its legal

but i am baffled how they can possibly jel logically

if a short barrel shotgun is any thing with a barrel less than 18 that fires a shotgun shell

then would anything that fires a shotgun shell that has a barrel greater than 18 inches equal a long barrel shotgun?

but that is where i make my mistake trying to look at laws logically
Street Sweepers are DDs on a federal level which has nothing to do with Ca.'s AW laws.
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Old 03-31-2012, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Street Sweepers are DDs on a federal level which has nothing to do with Ca.'s AW laws.
yes but if they were renamed and redisigned they would be off list sweepers

i understand that the atf has a rule about any rifled bores over 50 caliber but their inaction with other 12ga shotguns with rifled bores how can some be ok and others not be? with a clear legal argument
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Old 04-01-2012, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by bohoki View Post
i understand that the atf has a rule about any rifled bores over 50 caliber but their inaction with other 12ga shotguns with rifled bores how can some be ok and others not be? with a clear legal argument
Because, Federal laws [18 USC 921(a)(4)(B)] says a 12gauge or larger shotgun is automatically a DD, unless the US Attorney General says it's not.



18 USC 921
(a) As used in this chapter—
(4) The term “destructive device” means—
(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter;
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Old 04-01-2012, 4:11 AM
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Originally Posted by BLFD1 View Post
Ok, so I know this has been debated here but I still can't seem to get a straight answer. I called a few CA shops and some say legal, some say felony... So what's the straight answer?

We have a customer that want's the 45LC/.410 version, but he got the same answer as us calling around. What's the real deal? How are the FFL's running it in DROS? Are people buying these around CA with no issues?

It better be legal. I purchased the stainless version a month ago in a gun shop in So. California. They told me that sometime in 2011 a court ruling made it legal in Cal. Prior to that Cal DOJ prohibited it. I think someone above has the technical reason. Something about a shotgun vs. a rifle blah, blah, blah. Yes, it's legal.

Kind of a cool rifle. Haven't had the privilege of shooting it yet due to a temp restraining order by a former employee a week ago, but I'm looking forward to it when that ends... I hope. BTW, I have the 45LC/.410 version... well I guess my local PD has it actually.

Ralph
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Old 04-01-2012, 5:13 PM
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There were examples for sale at the Vallejo gun show today, for what it's worth.
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Old 04-01-2012, 7:33 PM
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The confusion stems from the Byzantine CA gun laws.

For rifles a shotgun is defined as smooth bore and firing a shotgun shell. For pistols the definition doesn't include a smooth bore. Therefore a rifle which shoots shot shells is considered a rifle but any pistol which shoots shotgun shells (as opposed to rat shot or snake shot) is considered a shotgun and will thus be considered an SBS.

It is an easy distinction to confuse but the circuit judge is completely legal but the pistol versions are all illegal in CA.
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Old 04-01-2012, 7:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
The confusion stems from the Byzantine CA gun laws.

For rifles a shotgun is defined as smooth bore and firing a shotgun shell. For pistols the definition doesn't include a smooth bore. Therefore a rifle which shoots shot shells is considered a rifle but any pistol which shoots shotgun shells (as opposed to rat shot or snake shot) is considered a shotgun and will thus be considered an SBS.

It is an easy distinction to confuse but the circuit judge is completely legal but the pistol versions are all illegal in CA.
They are legal with an NFA trust. I will have one by the end of May.
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Old 04-01-2012, 7:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
The confusion stems from the Byzantine CA gun laws.

For rifles a shotgun is defined as smooth bore and firing a shotgun shell. For pistols the definition doesn't include a smooth bore. Therefore a rifle which shoots shot shells is considered a rifle but any pistol which shoots shotgun shells (as opposed to rat shot or snake shot) is considered a shotgun and will thus be considered an SBS.

It is an easy distinction to confuse but the circuit judge is completely legal but the pistol versions are all illegal in CA.
i hate the contrary side effect to this rule

the fact that now rifled 12 ga shotguns must be declared "a rifle greater than 60 caliber" so be careful out there
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Old 04-01-2012, 8:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyscraper View Post
They are legal with an NFA trust. I will have one by the end of May.
Not "as issued" from the factory they aren't, IIRC. Need to put a VFG or something on it to skirt one into AOW status, n'cest pas?
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Old 04-01-2012, 8:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyscraper View Post
They are legal with an NFA trust. I will have one by the end of May.
Yes, and Suppressors are lega with an 07 and SOT.

I thought he was discussing buying it as a non-NFA weapon.
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  #16  
Old 04-02-2012, 6:43 AM
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Not "as issued" from the factory they aren't, IIRC. Need to put a VFG or something on it to skirt one into AOW status, n'cest pas?
Just during transfer, afterwhich the owner can remove if wanted.
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  #17  
Old 04-02-2012, 6:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyscraper View Post
Just during transfer, afterwhich the owner can remove if wanted.
remove temporarily, not permanently.
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Old 04-02-2012, 8:04 AM
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remove temporarily, not permanently.
Where does it say that? My ffl contacted DOJ and said it was no problem
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Old 04-02-2012, 9:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyscraper View Post
Where does it say that? My ffl contacted DOJ and said it was no problem
ATF told me that if you temporarily remove the "AOW feature" that ATF would still consider the Judge to be an AOW, and as long as ATF still considers it an AOW, then it would be exempt from CA's SBS law.

But if the removal of the AOW feature was to be a permanent modification, then ATF would no longer consider the Judge to be an AOW, and therefore you don't have the AOW exemption to CA's SBS law.

The $64k question is was it a permanent modification, or just a temporary removal?
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Old 04-02-2012, 9:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
ATF told me that if you temporarily remove the "AOW feature" that ATF would still consider the Judge to be an AOW, and as long as ATF still considers it an AOW, then it would be exempt from CA's SBS law.

But if the removal of the AOW feature was to be a permanent modification, then ATF would no longer consider the Judge to be an AOW, and therefore you don't have the AOW exemption to CA's SBS law.

The $64k question is was it a permanent modification, or just a temporary removal?
Ok thank you. If I remove it to go shooting, then put it back on in transit, might I be ok? It seems silly to have to keep it on but I don't want to risk any problems with LE. Thanks and sorry for thread jack
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Old 04-02-2012, 9:58 AM
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Dragging out the thread jack a wee bit.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyscraper View Post
Ok thank you. If I remove it to go shooting, then put it back on in transit, might I be ok? It seems silly to have to keep it on but I don't want to risk any problems with LE. Thanks and sorry for thread jack
A California LEO / DA might also try to make the jump to AOW feature not present on the gun = SBS. CADoJ says a Judge is an SBS, and there can't be an assumption that the possessor would intend to put that AOW enabling feature back on if it's not present and in place.

Not saying it would happen, most field LEOs probably wouldn't notice or care. It's just another gun. Those who pay attention training bulletins (or Calguns) would know. I just know a little about how LEOs think and it's unintended drama that can make uncomfortable case law, and a major PITA for the individual under suspicion. I would leave the gun configured as an AOW at all times, unless I am in a free state with it.

Just my opinion... YMMV.
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDogatPlay View Post
Dragging out the thread jack a wee bit.....



A California LEO / DA might also try to make the jump to AOW feature not present on the gun = SBS. CADoJ says a Judge is an SBS, and there can't be an assumption that the possessor would intend to put that AOW enabling feature back on if it's not present and in place.
remember that CA always considers the Judge to be an SBS, whether or not it has a VFG on it. But, if the Judge has be converted into an AOW via an attached VFG, ATF has stated that it is still an AOW even if you temporarily remove the VFG.



as long as the feds consider it to be an AOW, it should be exmept from CA's SBS laws.




Quote:
Not saying it would happen, most field LEOs probably wouldn't notice or care. It's just another gun. Those who pay attention training bulletins (or Calguns) would know. I just know a little about how LEOs think and it's unintended drama that can make uncomfortable case law, and a major PITA for the individual under suspicion. I would leave the gun configured as an AOW at all times, unless I am in a free state with it.

Just my opinion... YMMV.
and there is nothing wrong with taking a safe position on the subject. Everyone has their own level of exposure that they are willing to take.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:16 AM
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Back on the Rossi Circuit Judge 45LC/.410, I was recently told by a local well-stocked gun store that these were California illegal; I am glad to hear this was FUD. If anyone knows of a stocking store or non-FUD prone Rossi dealer in or near OC I would be eternally grateful.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:35 AM
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The other alternative is to just wait for the .44 Magnum version of the Circuit Judge to show up in the stores, now that Taurus/Rossi have actually started making them. I'm thinking about one of those myself. It's said to be based on the Raging Bull frame due to the pressure levels of the .44M round.
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Old 04-02-2012, 7:36 PM
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Just keep the VFG in the gun rug. That should answer any question about permanence. Now, to get this added to an LTC....
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Old 04-03-2012, 9:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timdotm View Post
Back on the Rossi Circuit Judge 45LC/.410, I was recently told by a local well-stocked gun store that these were California illegal; I am glad to hear this was FUD. If anyone knows of a stocking store or non-FUD prone Rossi dealer in or near OC I would be eternally grateful.
I've experienced similiar frustration. I'd actually placed a deposit at a dealer, only to have the dealer cancel the transaction mid-way when their distributor apparently flip-flopped on the CA-legal issue (the distributor originally said good to go, then apparently rescinded their answer). I arrived on to start my DROS (after an hour drive) to EXTREME disappointment.

Despite knowing the rifled barrel made it a not-shotgun, they were not able to explain what exactly made it no good for CA other than it "was not CA approved."

That SCJ4510SS just taunts me... but I can't find anyone within even unreasonable driving distance that believes the gun can be sold in CA. Any retailers in the Santa Clarita or Orange County area who can help? =(
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Old 04-03-2012, 9:29 AM
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One of my tasks of late has been to disabuse FFLs and out-of-state distributors of the notion that the Circuit Judge is illegal (almost all configurations are CA legal, with one exception). So far I'm 2 for 2, but both are way the hell up north.

If the FFL in question is willing to listen to logic backed up with legal reasoning, send them my way. More unpaid work for the cause.



Quote:
Originally Posted by darkgrue View Post
I've experienced similiar frustration. I'd actually placed a deposit at a dealer, only to have the dealer cancel the transaction mid-way when their distributor apparently flip-flopped on the CA-legal issue (the distributor originally said good to go, then apparently rescinded their answer). I arrived on to start my DROS (after an hour drive) to EXTREME disappointment.

Despite knowing the rifled barrel made it a not-shotgun, they were not able to explain what exactly made it no good for CA other than it "was not CA approved."

That SCJ4510SS just taunts me... but I can't find anyone within even unreasonable driving distance that believes the gun can be sold in CA. Any retailers in the Santa Clarita or Orange County area who can help? =(
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Old 04-19-2012, 9:16 AM
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We are an FFL dealer in Lancaster, CA and we have these in stock. Give us a call (661) 949-7707 for our address.
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