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Curio & Relic/Black Powder Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun!

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  #1  
Old 04-17-2007, 5:49 PM
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Default Buck and ball

I have an 1842 .69 Springfield musket coming soon, and I'd like to try the "buck and ball" load -- the more holes the merrier.

I also have an 1861 .58 Springfield rifle. I load that with either pre-greased patch and ball or greased Minie. Not that I intend to shoot buck and ball from the rifle, but that's where my knowledge pretty much ends.

What is the proper procedure for loading buck and ball? If I add three buckshot after the ball, what keeps them from falling out? Are there wads available for that?

How many and what size buckshot?

I have a couple of blackpowder books, but they don't mention these details. Heck, they don't even say anything useful about buck and ball, other than a mention of buck and ball in separate barrels of a double barreled shotgun.

Say, while I'm at it ... I accidentally ordered some Minie balls in .69 instead of .58. Is there any problem firing them from the 1842 smoothbore? Might not be very useful, but I'd hate to just melt them down without trying at least a few first.
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Old 04-17-2007, 7:24 PM
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This seems correct
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_and_ball
Quote:
Buck and ball was issued in paper cartridges that combined the projectiles with the black powder propellant charge to facilitate rapid loading of the weapon. The buckshot would set in front of the ball, so that the ball would act as a gas seal for the buckshot. Like any other paper cartridge, the rear of the cartridge would be torn open to expose the powder, which would be loaded, and the remaining paper, balls, and buckshot would be rammed down on top.
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Old 04-17-2007, 7:48 PM
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Yeh, but what holds the buckshot in? The ball is held in place by the patch, but the bucks are loose. Seems like you'd need some kind of wad to be put in on top of everything.
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Old 04-19-2007, 12:45 AM
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The paper (you never remove the ball/shot from the paper).
Take a look at the picture here
http://www.iusb.edu/~journal/2000/image/stanage6.png
http://www.iusb.edu/~journal/2000/stanage.html
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Old 04-19-2007, 5:32 PM
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Originally Posted by socalguns View Post
The paper (you never remove the ball/shot from the paper).
Take a look at the picture here
http://www.iusb.edu/~journal/2000/image/stanage6.png
http://www.iusb.edu/~journal/2000/stanage.html
I've seen that report before, pretty interesting. But I've never made paper cartridges. I am pretty new to muzzle loading but sure having a blast.

If I want to make those cartridges, how do I do it -- where do I get the paper? I have heard of muzzle loaders who tear open the paper with their teeth, dump in the powder, throw the paper down as a wad, ram the bullet, etc etc, but this sounds different, like you dump the entire cartridge in, intact. How does the cap light off the powder if it is in the cartridge?
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Old 04-19-2007, 5:42 PM
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I've never shot buck and ball loads but I do have a muzzle loading shotgun and I just use card board and poster board cut to just oversize so that it makes a tight seal. you will want to have an over powder wad and a overshot wad but I would weigh the ball plus the buck together dont go over an ounce of lead (ruffly 430grains) with 80 grains of powder by volume. I use that load in my 12gadge muzzle loading shotgun.
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Old 04-19-2007, 6:02 PM
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I almost forgot the cardboard goes over the powder and the poster board goes over the shot.
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Old 04-20-2007, 12:26 AM
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You got the right idea, you tear off the back and pour the powder,
you fold over the end you tore and ram the whole thing down.
That's the way Gunny does it

One way to make'em
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=144094
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Old 04-20-2007, 5:18 AM
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Originally Posted by redneckshootist View Post
I almost forgot the cardboard goes over the powder and the poster board goes over the shot.
That's for straight buckshot, right? If I run a patched full size ball down first, no need for anything between powder and ball, I think.
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Old 04-20-2007, 5:19 AM
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Now that looks interesting. I will have to look for rolling papers. I wonder if there are any head shops around here ....
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Old 04-20-2007, 5:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Scarecrow Repair View Post
That's for straight buckshot, right? If I run a patched full size ball down first, no need for anything between powder and ball, I think.
the over powder wad is mainly a gas seal whitch is what the patch deos so if you used a patched round ball you wouldnt need the over powder was just an overshot wad to prevent seperation of the buck and ball.

I like that paper setup I will have to try that this weekend and see how it goes. It would shure make loading easier
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Old 04-21-2007, 12:48 AM
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You could probably get away with anything thiN enough,
newsprint, regular notebook paper,
wax paper. Probably cheaper than rolling papers
would be tissue paper, the kind used for gift-wrapping
and pattern-tracing (seamstress...)
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Old 04-21-2007, 6:48 AM
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I bought some rolling papers at the grocery store, $1.09 for 100. That's cheap enough.

I am still waiting for the 1842 Springfield to arrive, slow shipping ...
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Old 04-30-2007, 10:05 PM
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range report on using rolling papers idea. for the 36cal pistol, and 44cal cap and ball it worked great and it shure sped up the loading process, but the papers were too small for .530 round balls so I will have to try something else
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Old 04-30-2007, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redneckshootist View Post
range report on using rolling papers idea. for the 36cal pistol, and 44cal cap and ball it worked great and it shure sped up the loading process, but the papers were too small for .530 round balls so I will have to try something else
That's interesting. Could you use two papers per cartridge? I am going to be trying some .69 caliber ones and might run into that problem.

A black powder reenactor at the Woodland Scottish Games said he just used shotgun wads for his buck and ball, and that since he liked to hit what he was aiming at, he didn't shoot the smoothbore often enough for the cost to be a problem.

But roll-your-own cartridges still might be handy to speed things up.
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Old 05-01-2007, 9:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarecrow Repair View Post
That's interesting. Could you use two papers per cartridge? I am going to be trying some .69 caliber ones and might run into that problem.

A black powder reenactor at the Woodland Scottish Games said he just used shotgun wads for his buck and ball, and that since he liked to hit what he was aiming at, he didn't shoot the smoothbore often enough for the cost to be a problem.

But roll-your-own cartridges still might be handy to speed things up.
I didn't try that, but I will and see how well it works. The papers have the adheasive so I'm shure you can. When I go shootin this weekend I'll try it.

You should have told me you were at the Scottish games I'm a Woodland boy
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Old 05-05-2007, 7:06 PM
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Default Buck n ball report

In talking to the black powder reenactors at the Woodland Scottish Games, I got the recommendation to just get wads for buck n ball, forget the paper cartrdige. His attitude was that the smoothbore is basically a single barrel shotgun, therefore not his weapon of choice, and not something to put a lot of effort into. I understand this thinking -- any gun which is less accurate than me is pretty inaccurate and not something I want to shoot a lot, just once in a while.

So I took his advice with my .69 caliber 1842 Springfield smootbore. The local gun shop (Sierra Gun Supply, Auburn, kudos to Ken and Duane) had some "overshoot wads", I think they are called, 16 gauge or whatever is .69 caliber. Duane gave me five to try and they work great, so I will have to buy a bunch more. They are such a nice close fit that they whistle as you ram them down on top of the buckshot, but the weight of the ram rod is almost enough by itself.

Here is my first attempt, at 30 feet. It was drizzly, and I could either stay dry or stomp through mud to set up a target at 100 feet, or really get out into it for 300 feet; plus I wanted to see the spread, and was a bit unclear if it would stay on the cardboard at 100 feet. The three buckshots were each three inches away, equating to a spread of 30 inches at 100 yards, although the different aerodynamics and weight would affect that considerably. I find it amusing how puny the holes look compared to the .69 ball hole, and then realize that my AR-15 shoots an even smaller hole.

Here are my second and third, on top of an already used target. Note the two balls are almost on top of each other and almost spot on horizontally, which pleases me no end for a musket with no rear sight. The buckshots are about the same average distance away, three inches, but more varied from the first attempt.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg bucknball.jpg (50.1 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg both.jpg (52.6 KB, 7 views)
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Last edited by Scarecrow Repair; 05-05-2007 at 7:14 PM..
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  #18  
Old 05-06-2007, 12:12 AM
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They make bigger rolling papers but they will probably won't be wide enough. I actually roll my own cigs sometimes though I'm sure no one believes me!
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