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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 03-21-2012, 10:26 AM
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Default Person with a CCW and OFF DUTY LEO.

Had an interesting converstion Monday. Want to know what You all think.

What is the difference between an off duty LEO (armed) and an armed person (not LEO) with a CCW?

They can both legally carry. They can both use their guns for protection .

So what is the difference?
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
Had an interesting converstion Monday. Want to know what You all think.

What is the difference between an off duty LEO (armed) and an armed person (not LEO) with a CCW?

They can both legally carry. They can both use their guns for protection .

So what is the difference?
Uh, I don't know. In some LEO departments are not the LEO's required to always be on duty?
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:31 AM
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Difference? When the officer shoots somebody they get the whole PD behind them for support and to pay the lawyer bills, and the regular guy gets nothing.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:32 AM
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LEO's with a visible badge can open carry, for one...
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Lives_In_Fresno View Post
LEO's with a visible badge can open carry, for one...
Some can . My department says :NO OPEN CARRY OFF DUTY.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
Had an interesting converstion Monday. Want to know what You all think.

What is the difference between an off duty LEO (armed) and an armed person (not LEO) with a CCW?

They can both legally carry. They can both use their guns for protection .

So what is the difference?
I believe most if not all LEOs are full time peace officers. I don't know what responsibilities/obligations that entails but I'm sure you do.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:37 AM
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The off duty LEO can carry more than 10 rounds.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Clinton View Post
The off duty LEO can carry more than 10 rounds.
Others can too.
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  #9  
Old 03-21-2012, 10:40 AM
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Off duty LEO can still buy magazines with more than 10 round capacity in California. So can armored car guys.
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  #10  
Old 03-21-2012, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
Had an interesting converstion Monday. Want to know what You all think.

What is the difference between an off duty LEO (armed) and an armed person (not LEO) with a CCW?

They can both legally carry. They can both use their guns for protection .

So what is the difference?
It's not totally clear what your question is -- are you asking about the differences with respect to carrying a concealed gun? What legal rights they have granted under LEOSA? Or other differences in terms of power and authority?

For starters, an off-duty full time sworn peace officer (or Designated Level 1 Reserve Police Officer) have the full powers of arrest granted by 832.1 PC, 24x7 even when off duty, anywhere in the State. Reserve Officers and some others have the powers granted by 832.6 PC, only while on duty.

Obviously, there are some differences in terms of what guns and magazines a LEO can buy, and hence what they might be wearing concealed. For an LEO, that is dictated mostly by departmental policy, and for a citizen, it's dictated by what guns are listed on the LTC/CCW.

If you really care about this topic and want to find out more, try the LEO forum.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:57 AM
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LEO can carry LEO only knives. Oh, wait, no they can't.
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  #12  
Old 03-21-2012, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911_sfca View Post
If you really care about this topic and want to find out more, try the LEO forum.
ap3572001 is a cop.

Asking vague questions you already know the answer to almost seems like trolling. I hope I'm wrong.
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  #13  
Old 03-21-2012, 10:59 AM
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I was talking about this with my wife. The subject was Peace Officers carrying guns comapred to citizens. My point was, at the moment of firing a gun in self defense, is there any difference between the two? Is the PO firing because 'its his job', or does his job take a back seat for a split second while he defends his life?

Is that a distinction thats not even worth bothering about? My argument was, self defense is self defense except police are paid to go after and confront criminals in an offensive role, while citizens primarly play defense. But they both fire in defense of their lives.

Does the law even make a distinction?

My argument was, shooting a suspect is not the aim of policework, they dont do it because its 'part of the job' (even if it may well end up that way) like writing a speeding ticket. They do it to defend their lives, just like a citizen.
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  #14  
Old 03-21-2012, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepsi2451 View Post
ap3572001 is a cop.

Asking vague questions you already know the answer to almost seems like trolling. I hope I'm wrong.
I had a talk about it with someone who got a CCW not too long ago.
Just want to hear what people think . Not troplling
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  #15  
Old 03-21-2012, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by SanPedroShooter View Post
I was talking about this with my wife. The subject was Peace Officers carrying guns comapred to citizens. My point was, at the moment of firing a gun in self defense, is there any difference between the two? Is the PO firing because 'its his job', or does his job take a back seat for a split second while he defends his life?

Is that a distinction thats not even worth bothering about? My argument was, self defense is self defense except police are paid to go after and confront criminals in an offensive role, while citizens primarly play defense. But they both fire in defense of their lives.

Does the law even make a distinction?
Ok. In Your example, if someone is trying to cause death or great bodily harm to a person who is legally armed , that person (off duty LEO or not) will be firing in self defense. NOT TO ENFORCE ANY LAWS OR TO CAUSE AN ARREST.

Firing in self defense is not a part of a job.
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  #16  
Old 03-21-2012, 11:11 AM
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That was my point exactly.
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  #17  
Old 03-21-2012, 11:14 AM
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the cops does not need to be concerned with second amendment issues, he/she has the backing of 'the brothrhood'
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  #18  
Old 03-21-2012, 11:15 AM
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The LEO has a duty to engage a situation, the CCW person does not (but should report it). It's real simple, having a CCW does not mean you can do the job of the police, that will get you into trouble.
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  #19  
Old 03-21-2012, 11:16 AM
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The furthur argument was, do police carry sidearms to enforce the law, or to protect themselves while they do so?

Is a sidearm a 'tool of the trade'? Or is it carried for self protection like I carry mine? Simialr to the idea that a jewler doenst carry a pistol to sell gold rings, he carries it to protect his life and property.
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  #20  
Old 03-21-2012, 11:25 AM
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In Los Angeles last year or the year before. A off-duty Officer, civilian cloths, with minor child was exiting a fast-food eatery. Homeless nutjob was having a psychotic episode and brutally attacked the officer out of no-where. The officer beaten and bloody was able to draw a concealed weapon and probably save his own life, killed the attacker in front of his child. In the City of Los Angeles an ordinary Civilian that cannot get a LTC would probably have died in front of his child and maybe others.

As far as Constitutional Rights, that should be recognized, No Difference except that LTC holders are not bound to uphold the Law, just protect themselves and loved ones from harm.
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:31 AM
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Thats always been my take. Peace Officers uphold and enforce the law, we all have a duty to defend our own lives, loved ones and property, otherwise, I dont see a difference.

Sir Robert Peels original envisionment of the modern police force was to be men that do for a living what all citzens should be doing already. Of course it doesnt quite work out that way in practice anymore, but its still a valid ideal. Peel's most often quoted principle: The police are the public and the public are the police.
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  #22  
Old 03-21-2012, 11:32 AM
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In California, as in many other states, you are a peace officer 24 hours a day (Assuming full-time LEO is being addressed in the question here. Some departments, like one harbor patrol I know of, are essentially reserve officers, and are only peace officers while on duty.), and have a "duty to act", a legal distinction that effects your choices and responsibilities in many situations. Non-LEO CCW holders do not have that duty.
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:38 AM
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"[QUOTE=1911_sfca;8259364]It's not totally clear what your question is -- are you asking about the differences with respect to carrying a concealed gun? What legal rights they have granted under LEOSA? Or other differences in terms of power and authority?

For starters, an off-duty full time sworn peace officer (or Designated Level 1 Reserve Police Officer) have the full powers of arrest granted by 832.1 PC, 24x7 even when off duty, anywhere in the State. Reserve Officers and some others have the powers granted by 832.6 PC, only while on duty
."

As a citizen you have similar arrest powers. If you witness a misdemeanor or a felony (or have knowledge a felony has been committed) you may perform a citizen's arrest.
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turo View Post
Difference? When the officer shoots somebody they get the whole PD behind them for support and to pay the lawyer bills, and the regular guy gets nothing.

The LEO has to do a job to get such support. Citizens have a different option for a lot cheaper, though not nearly as good (arguably better in some ways... as a PD may toss the officer to the wolves if it saves the city's a**).

Have never used it (am a member) after a shooting, but I believe it's a worthwhile investment. The DVDs are dry as can be, but have good info in them.

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:50 AM
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Can a citizen with a CCW draw their sidearm to protect someone else in a life-threatening situation?

In other words, if a CCW encounters a stranger in the middle of getting robbed/assaulted, and the perpetrator has a weapon on the victim, can the CCW draw to protect the victim if the CCW citizen is not in any imminent danger?
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:52 AM
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An off duty leo still had peace officer status and can make arrests meaning they can draw and exhibit when effecting an arrest vs an armed citizen can only draw when the threat of deadly force is presented
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:55 AM
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Like said, LEO's got the backing of other LEO's. We dont
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911_sfca View Post
It's not totally clear what your question is -- are you asking about the differences with respect to carrying a concealed gun? What legal rights they have granted under LEOSA? Or other differences in terms of power and authority?

For starters, an off-duty full time sworn peace officer (or Designated Level 1 Reserve Police Officer) have the full powers of arrest granted by 832.1 PC, 24x7 even when off duty, anywhere in the State. Reserve Officers and some others have the powers granted by 832.6 PC, only while on duty.

Obviously, there are some differences in terms of what guns and magazines a LEO can buy, and hence what they might be wearing concealed. For an LEO, that is dictated mostly by departmental policy, and for a citizen, it's dictated by what guns are listed on the LTC/CCW.

If you really care about this topic and want to find out more, try the LEO forum.
^^^Good to know

I read somewhere that Sac PD or Sac Sherrifs have their officers and deputies armed while off duty.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uxi View Post
So can armored car guys.
Actually, no. The company can buy them, and lend them to the employees while on duty. PC 32435

32435. Section 32310 does not apply to any of the following:
(a) The sale of, giving of, lending of, importation into this
state of, or purchase of, any large-capacity magazine, to or by any
entity that operates an armored vehicle business pursuant to the laws
of this state.
(b) The lending of large-capacity magazines by an entity specified
in subdivision (a) to its authorized employees, while in the course
and scope of employment for purposes that pertain to the entity's
armored vehicle business.
(c) The return of those large-capacity magazines to the entity
specified in subdivision (a) by those employees specified in
subdivision (b).
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by castgold View Post
Can a citizen with a CCW draw their sidearm to protect someone else in a life-threatening situation?

In other words, if a CCW encounters a stranger in the middle of getting robbed/assaulted, and the perpetrator has a weapon on the victim, can the CCW draw to protect the victim if the CCW citizen is not in any imminent danger?
Of course.

Quote:
The killing of one person by another may be justifiable when necessary to resist the
attempt to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime, provided that a reasonable person
in the same or similar situation would believe that (a) the person killed intended to commit
a forcible and life-threatening crime; (b) there was imminent danger of such crime being
accomplished; and (c) the person acted under the belief that such force was necessary to
save himself or herself or another from death or a forcible and life-threatening crime.
Murder, mayhem, rape, and robbery are examples of forcible and life-threatening crimes.
ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2006.pdf
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:30 PM
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Powers of arrest, no duty to retreat.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:38 PM
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One is a trained Police Officer the other is not.

Carrying a gun doesn't make you a trained or veteran Police Officer who does the job day in and day out, had the training and the understanding of local and State Laws, the Officer has a different set of obligations and objecitives compared to the civilian.

Civilian= Save yourself
Officer= Risk your life to save the public.

Hope this helps,

Last edited by TripleThreat; 03-21-2012 at 8:17 PM..
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Officer= Risk your life to save the public. enforce laws.

Fixed it for you. Saving the public is not in the job description and there is no obligation to protect the public, per SCOTUS. They are law enforcement, i.e. paid to enforce laws while presumably defending and upholding the constitution, per their oath.

That said, many officers bravely DO protect innocent life. We can be grateful for that, but we shouldn't expect it or depend upon it.
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Old 03-21-2012, 1:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vffr1 View Post
One is a trained Police Officer the other is not.

Carrying a guy doesn't make you a trained or veteran Police Officer who does the job day in and day out, had the training and the understanding of local and State Laws, the Officer has a different set of obligation and objecitives compared to the civilian.

Civilian= Save yourself
Officer= Risk your life to save the public.

Hope this helps,
You are right.

Let me throw something in.

How about a RETIRED police officer and a person with a CCW?

Any differnce there?
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Old 03-21-2012, 1:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
Had an interesting converstion Monday. Want to know what You all think.

What is the difference between an off duty LEO (armed) and an armed person (not LEO) with a CCW?

They can both legally carry. They can both use their guns for protection .

So what is the difference?
In Reality Nothing...In Practice, they have the power to arrest 24/7.
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Old 03-21-2012, 1:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro Pistolero View Post
Fixed it for you. Saving the public is not in the job description and there is no obligation to protect the public, per SCOTUS. They are law enforcement, i.e. paid to enforce laws while presumably defending and upholding the constitution, per their oath.

That said, many officers bravely DO protect innocent life. We can be grateful for that, but we shouldn't expect it or depend upon it.
So in effect, there isn't any difference between an off duty LEO, or on duty for that matter, and an armed private citizen in regard to the use of deadly force.

Certainly either can use deadly force in defense of themselves, and either may, but is not obligated to do so in defense of a third person.
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Old 03-21-2012, 1:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
You are right.

Let me throw something in.

How about a RETIRED police officer and a person with a CCW?

Any differnce there?
Aye, there's the rub. Shoudln't be any difference but there is.
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Old 03-21-2012, 1:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Uxi View Post
Aye, there's the rub. Shoudln't be any difference but there is.
There is? ???
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Old 03-21-2012, 1:58 PM
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An off duty LEO is OBLIGATED by his department and sworn oath to take action in felony scenarios. Thus, the officer has the backing of their department, the agency lawyers and state law, BUT is subject to investigation and review by the District Attorney's Office.

No civilian has the legal obligation to protect anyone, including himself.

A RETIRED LEO, like myself, is a civilian and as such has no legal commitments. The retired guys I know would most definitely intervene and take action without hesitation.
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Old 03-21-2012, 1:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vffr1 View Post
One is a trained Police Officer the other is not.

Carrying a guy doesn't make you a trained or veteran Police Officer who does the job day in and day out, had the training and the understanding of local and State Laws, the Officer has a different set of obligation and objecitives compared to the civilian.

Civilian= Save yourself
Officer= Risk your life to save the public.

Hope this helps,
Fixed a few more items... seems the more I read the news, the more it becomes apparent that understanding the laws is pretty far down the list on the requirements of becoming a PO. SOme do... the good ones, but most seem to make it up as they go along. Or skim the reading material missing important info.

As for training... sorry guys, but I train more with my firearms than any officer I personally know. I am not talking bench shooting either. USPA & IDPA shooting. I don't even have a CCW. Have you seen the requirements most CCW holders have to meet? Firearm qualifications alone are much more basic for an LEO compared to that of a CCW holder. See attached files to compare.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by wireless View Post
It's hard to put numbers together that are so small no one keeps track....
Unless you are from the Brady Bunch.

Last edited by furyous68; 10-16-2015 at 2:03 PM..
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