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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 04-13-2007, 12:22 PM
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Default triggers single stage vs. two stage? pros? cons?

Well as the CALGUNS OLLs are almost here...

It's time to finish the planning.

Does any have some URLs or just plain facts handy on.

The PROs and CONs of "1 stage" (single) vs. "2 stage" (two double) triggers?

From what I have been able to find, it's pay the extra $80 or so, and get a 2 stage... but I assume there must be some PRO reason for a 1 stage... or is there?

-M3
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Old 04-13-2007, 12:25 PM
Jicko Jicko is offline
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Good... this is the "right" way to do it... if you have a question... start a thread rather than hijacking the other....

Quote:
The two-stage trigger groups offer a substantial enhancement of semi-automatic accuracy potential over factory single-stage triggers for AR-15 Series rifles.

The factory single stage trigger mechanism releases the hammer (firing the weapon) after a steady squeeze is applied by the trigger finger. This trigger squeeze requires steadily increasing pressure to overcome the sear spring and mechanical resistance. The "creep" inherent in the factory single stage trigger requires that the shooter take time to "walk" through the trigger pull and find the "let-off point" in order to achieve accurate fire. The two-stage trigger mechanism release the hammer (firing the weapon) after two distinct amounts of spring and mechanical resistance are overcome by the trigger finger. The Initial stage of resistance encountered with this design feels light and is relatively long - approximately I/8 of an inch. The second stage of resistance feels noticeably greater but is of very short duration. The result is an extremely predictable, consistent, "crisp" trigger pull; semi-automatic fire is both quicker and more accurate because the first stage is quickly overcome and the second stage is crisp and predictable.
I hope the above "make sense".... if not... you would just have to TRY IT YOURSELF... try to shoot a single stage trigger with a "HIGH POWER" scope.... then try to shoot a 2-stage in the same setup.... then you will *know* what we are talking about....

Last edited by Jicko; 04-13-2007 at 12:35 PM..
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Old 04-13-2007, 12:38 PM
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Also, more info

Quote:
What is a Two Stage Trigger and How does it differ from a Single Stage Trigger?

A: Courtesy of LTC Santose

Easier to think of these by their mechanics.

On a single stage trigger the trigger is moving the sear from the get-go as it's directly connected to it. Can be a long or short pull, but it's still single stage as the sear is moving as you pull the trigger. Standard M16/AR15 trigger is single stage, just look at the diagram and you'll see the trigger and hammer interface directly.

On a two stage trigger there's a first stage (call it "take up") where the sear doesn't move followed by sear movement in the second stage. Various forms of 2-stage. Some, like an unmodified M1911 pistol just have lots of trigger bar movement before the bar touches the sear. On bolt action rifles the common method is a couple of levers; the lever which is connected to the sear doesn't move the sear until the first stage has been completed.

Two stage trigger can fool your muscles into thinking and acting as if the trigger is lighter than it is. Say a 3.5lb first stage after which point you can feel the start of the second stage. With a 1lb second stage you're only applying 1lb additional pressure and it feels like a one pound pull after that point. Total weight is 4.5lbs of course.

(Editor's Note: Single stage trigger feel like 1911 triggers/SA revolver triggers, Double stage triggers are like the M1 and M1A/M14 triggers or kind of like a standard Glock trigger)
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Old 04-13-2007, 12:39 PM
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oh it makes sense. And I've seen LOTS of PROs on the 2 stage... my question is... if the 2 stage is so great...

why did they make the 1 stage on all these rifles? are they assuming you are a carbine, and engaging without a scope?

-M3
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Old 04-13-2007, 12:49 PM
Jicko Jicko is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcubed4130 View Post
oh it makes sense. And I've seen LOTS of PROs on the 2 stage... my question is... if the 2 stage is so great...

why did they make the 1 stage on all these rifles? are they assuming you are a carbine, and engaging without a scope?

-M3
Random thoughts/notes:

- All new production Mark 12 Mod 1 SPR comes with KAC 2-stage triggers.

- I dunno if there is a 2-stage M16 FCG..... hence M16 in semi-auto is.... single-stage

- So, civi's AR15 mimic that....

- Also, original AR15 design is single-stage.... and it is cheaper.... vastly available

- Many new brand name rifles comes standard with 2-stage triggers
eg. KAC's, http://www.knightarmco.com/sr_15_16.html
eg. RRA's, http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-de...TOKEN=72086877

- It is yet another *upgrades* they can sell u...

- preferences.... "freedom of choice" (fake "freedom of choice"..... cuz... I can't choose to get a M16-FCG )

- All "Glocks" come with 2-stage triggers

- "are they assuming you are a carbine, and engaging without a scope?" <- even then, a 2-stage will still give you the advantage of a "crispy" break.... my original example is just a case that YOU(or ANYONE, even with very limited AR experience) can tell the significance of the different between a single & 2 -stage trigger right the way

Last edited by Jicko; 04-13-2007 at 12:54 PM..
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  #6  
Old 04-13-2007, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcubed4130 View Post
oh it makes sense. And I've seen LOTS of PROs on the 2 stage... my question is... if the 2 stage is so great...

why did they make the 1 stage on all these rifles? are they assuming you are a carbine, and engaging without a scope?
The AR15 wasn't designed to be a "battle rifle" in the same class as the M1 Garand and M14, which were primarily fielded as semi-automatic rifles for longer battlefield distances. The AR15 was designed as an Assault Rifle along the lines of the German StG44 and Soviet AK47 which were issued as select fire weapons for more urban combat zones.

The semi-automatic trigger group of the commercial Colt AR15's were simply modifications of the original single stage select fire trigger group that prevented full auto operation.
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Old 04-13-2007, 1:12 PM
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Not all single-stage triggers are crap, there are some really nice single-stage triggers out there as well, JP and Timney to name a couple.
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Old 04-13-2007, 1:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gose View Post
Not all single-stage triggers are crap, there are some really nice single-stage triggers out there as well, JP and Timney to name a couple.
They cost as much as a 2-stage.... so... that falls into "Preferences" ...
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Old 04-13-2007, 1:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gose View Post
Not all single-stage triggers are crap, there are some really nice single-stage triggers out there as well, JP and Timney to name a couple.
A popular "trigger job" is to polish the contact surfaces of the hammer, trigger and disconnector.

My first single stage "match" triggers were factory single stage sets for my Colt lowers. Once I installed the first one the stock Colt trigger was too heavy. Shooting my Bushmaster seemed odd until I realized it had a stock trigger as well (eventually installed an RRA 2 stage).

Except for the two Colts all my AR lowers are running 2 stage triggers. Either RRA (3), Chip McCormick (1) or Giesselle (1).
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Old 04-13-2007, 3:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technical Ted View Post
A popular "trigger job" is to polish the contact surfaces of the hammer, trigger and disconnector.
It's popular, but unless you do it correctly, it will remove the surface hardening of the parts and cause them to fail prematurely.

If you're shooting for accuracy, upgrading to a nice single-stage trigger, or a 2-stage trigger is worth it.

If you're the "I'm looking for the best scope for under $50" type of person, you won't want to spend the cash to upgrade, but it sure would be cool to say you got one.
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Old 04-13-2007, 3:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenophobe View Post
If you're the "I'm looking for the best scope for under $50" type of person, you won't want to spend the cash to upgrade, but it sure would be cool to say you got one.
They can always buy a made in China, 2-stage Airsoft trigger and put onto their builds....
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Old 04-13-2007, 9:57 PM
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ok... I found a bunch more articles on the net, after realizing that my real question is... "Trigger Pull" - how many pounds and why.



Now I'm a bit more clear - on that "single stage" or "double stage" or "single set" or "double set" triggers - are different methods of handling how to setup the proper "trigger pull" - for what you are doing. And that a "double stage" is also a bit safer in theory.

Also, Thanks - to each person willing to respond to my newbie questions about ARs.

Strangely all my buddies have ARs (pre-ban)... but none of them are into the nitty gritty details. I asked them about triggers, uppers, lowers, etc... they say.... uhhh the one that was on it when I bought it.

-M3
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Old 04-13-2007, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gose View Post
Not all single-stage triggers are crap, there are some really nice single-stage triggers out there as well, JP and Timney to name a couple.
And there's Williams Trigger Specialties set trigger as well. Around 1.75 lbs set and 4 lbs unset. Mine works quite well.
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Old 04-18-2007, 10:57 AM
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Speaking of 2-stage triggers, I just installed /adjusted a Jewell Trigger on my AR, to the best of my ability. Haven't taken it out yet, but when I dry-fire w/A-Zoom .223's it feels magnanimously magnificent (compared to stock 1-stage), however- it seems as though the hammer is falling with MUCH less force ("softly?!?") than before. When I take it for a ride, IS it going to go BANG? Or is there some kind of problem lurking within? When I break the rifle open & manually cock the hammer, there definitely seems to be enough spring tension. Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks.
Regards, OZ
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Old 04-18-2007, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OZONE78 View Post
Speaking of 2-stage triggers, I just installed /adjusted a Jewell Trigger on my AR, to the best of my ability. Haven't taken it out yet, but when I dry-fire w/A-Zoom .223's it feels magnanimously magnificent (compared to stock 1-stage), however- it seems as though the hammer is falling with MUCH less force ("softly?!?") than before. When I take it for a ride, IS it going to go BANG? Or is there some kind of problem lurking within? When I break the rifle open & manually cock the hammer, there definitely seems to be enough spring tension. Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks.
Regards, OZ
Stop playing with it at home and take it to a range!
Best way to find out.
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Old 04-18-2007, 12:38 PM
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Its all about what you like. I have felt some of the best triggers in the world right down to 0.5oz and I like the singles better. I used to like the doubles but when I got into bench match shooting I found that single stage triggers are much nicer and easier to tune for me. If I put my finger on the trigger I want that thing to fire if I put any pressure on it. If I don't want my gun to fire.....I KEEP MY FINGER OFF. Simple and easy

Every person will come to their own conclusion and sadly you will have to try or even buy both before you make your final pick of the litter but isn't that all part of the fun? Good luck
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