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  #1  
Old 08-01-2017, 4:12 PM
Redemption Redemption is offline
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Default LnL Powder drop question

Starting to Dial in my LnL ap and I am getting inconsistent drops.

This is a case activated powder drop.



the powder is that Hodgdon 700x I guess one would call that a flake powder eh?

intended drop is 4.4 grains and I am getting anywhere between 4.2 and 4.6

Checking weights on a Frankford DS-750 and I am calibrating the scale.....I should own a bar scale shouldnt I?

Thoughts? Advice?

no....I will not drink the blue koolaid and you cant make me!

also did a calibration check on the scale.... is this an issue with the scale?

I turned the scale on and did a calibration check, the unit read a pass and showed as 50.000 grams



I placed down the powder pan hit the tare option and placed the weight back on and got this. stared at it for a good 5 seconds....long enough to take the photo.



turned away to grab something and turned back and got this...



is the scale my issue here?

Last edited by Redemption; 09-05-2017 at 11:00 AM..
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  #2  
Old 08-01-2017, 4:56 PM
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I prefer the red koolaid myself!

Try filling the powder measure reservoir to within an inch of the top when setting up for a particular load, and top it off every time you refill the primer tube. Do you have a baffle in the reservoir?
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Old 08-01-2017, 5:05 PM
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Keep it more than half full and/or use a baffle. That will tighten up your tolerance range. Personally I don't worry about .3 grain "range" of drops in a pistol reload, as long as you are not at max loading.
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Old 08-01-2017, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by crowbar View Post
I prefer the red koolaid myself!

Try filling the powder measure reservoir to within an inch of the top when setting up for a particular load, and top it off every time you refill the primer tube. Do you have a baffle in the reservoir?
Yes I have the baffle in. before when I was doing the powder drop I was hand pulling up the lever and dropping into the powder pan.

My first drop into a case yielded 4.3 Im going to prime another case real quick and do about 5 powder drops and see if that makes a difference.
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Old 08-01-2017, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
Keep it more than half full and/or use a baffle. That will tighten up your tolerance range. Personally I don't worry about .3 grain "range" of drops in a pistol reload, as long as you are not at max loading.
Rgr that will fill up the powder drop more and do some test runs, will report back in about 5 min.
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  #6  
Old 08-01-2017, 5:26 PM
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Did a control test. Dropping into primed case. Powder drop 60-65% full

Run 1

4.4
4.6
4.2
4.2
4.2

Run 2 (adjusted for larger drop)

4.6
4.5
4.6
4.0
4.2

Run 3 (no adjustment)

4.2
3.7
4.1
4.5
4.0

On the powder Im using I only have a spread of 4.2 to 4.7 to work with so I am a little worried.
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  #7  
Old 08-01-2017, 5:31 PM
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Use a finer powder. 700X is one of the worst for a volume drop.
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  #8  
Old 08-01-2017, 5:39 PM
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I found the LnL dropper to work very well with ball and stik powders not so well with flaked pistol shotgun powders for those I use a LEE classic with the disc's

P.S. I use 700x almost religiously and drops great using a LEE
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Old 08-01-2017, 5:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Pablo5959 View Post
Use a finer powder. 700X is one of the worst for a volume drop.
Yeah I could have sworn I read that somewhere, this is my first toe dip into progressive, when I was single stagin it I was just manually measuring each powder load.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike0904 View Post
I found the LnL dropper to work very well with ball and stik powders not so well with flaked pistol shotgun powders for those I use a LEE classic with the disc's
Do either of you have any suggestions on a good pistol powder for .40 175 grain cast?
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  #10  
Old 08-01-2017, 5:42 PM
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Don't run it by hand, put a case on your scale and "tare it" then cycle it around and drop a charge. (be sure it has a primer in it), If you run it by hand, powder can get caught on the ledge at the top of the expander or funnel, and it will fall off that ledge intermittently. When you let the case activate it, it holds that gap shut, so no problem.

Also, it seems like the powder measure being "jostled" around a bit makes a difference, so you want to simulate the operation to be like you are actually loading.
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  #11  
Old 08-01-2017, 5:48 PM
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Originally Posted by TexasJackKin View Post
Don't run it by hand, put a case on your scale and "tare it" then cycle it around and drop a charge. (be sure it has a primer in it), If you run it by hand, powder can get caught on the ledge at the top of the expander or funnel, and it will fall off that ledge intermittently. When you let the case activate it, it holds that gap shut, so no problem.

Also, it seems like the powder measure being "jostled" around a bit makes a difference, so you want to simulate the operation to be like you are actually loading.
During the test run I did give the powder drop a tap tap tap between attempts. I figured maybe it was getting hung up.

The 3 runs of 5 I did above was with brass not by hand into the pan.
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  #12  
Old 08-01-2017, 5:53 PM
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Well like I said 700x is good to go most any caliber specially with cast. Some say its dirty...what isn't ? it does clean up easy....IMO
Do you have a powder cop die ? if you run a progressive press you will need one.. best way to keep everything going
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Old 08-01-2017, 5:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
Did a control test. Dropping into primed case. Powder drop 60-65% full

Run 1

4.4
4.6
4.2
4.2
4.2

Run 2 (adjusted for larger drop)

4.6
4.5
4.6
4.0
4.2

Run 3 (no adjustment)

4.2
3.7
4.1
4.5
4.0

On the powder Im using I only have a spread of 4.2 to 4.7 to work with so I am a little worried.
All of those are unacceptable in my book. I have the LNL AP, and had problems with the powder measure. You are indicating 10% variance in drops, and that's too much. I ultimately abandoned the Hornady measure in favor of the Lee which is much more reliable with my system. I also use an RCBS powder lock-out die to prevent over/under charges. It went to work frequently with the Hornady, but never with the Lee measure.
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Old 08-01-2017, 6:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike0904 View Post
Well like I said 700x is good to go most any caliber specially with cast. Some say its dirty...what isn't ? it does clean up easy....IMO
Do you have a powder cop die ? if you run a progressive press you will need one.. best way to keep everything going
Ive been using the 700x for a long time on 45acp and I am happy with how it shoots, not happy with how it is metering out of my case activated drop though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wbunning View Post
All of those are unacceptable in my book. I have the LNL AP, and had problems with the powder measure. You are indicating 10% variance in drops, and that's too much. I ultimately abandoned the Hornady measure in favor of the Lee which is much more reliable with my system. I also use an RCBS powder lock-out die to prevent over/under charges. It went to work frequently with the Hornady, but never with the Lee measure.
I agree 10% is unacceptable by a long lony ways. I hear 700x and 800x works well with the Lee auto disk drop but I have so much equipment at this point that I am more likely to dump the powder in leu of something a little finer, that seems to make sense to me.

Another thing im wondering is that my drop isnt adjusted so that the handle goes all the way to the top of the stroke, could that be a big part of the problem you think?
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Old 08-01-2017, 6:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
Another thing im wondering is that my drop isnt adjusted so that the handle goes all the way to the top of the stroke, could that be a big part of the problem you think?
No....I worked with mine for I don't remember how long, finally got a LEE and problem was solved...they only sell for about $26 or less if you find a used one , but you need the LEE die set also for it to work as well...sold separately.
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Old 08-01-2017, 6:36 PM
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Made some adjustments to the drop, so that when I throw the handle the case activation makes it to the top of its arm throw without warping the case (was kind of hard to get it there.

Now its metering thusly

4.3
4.4
4.5
4.4
4.4
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  #17  
Old 08-01-2017, 6:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
Ive been using the 700x for a long time on 45acp and I am happy with how it shoots, not happy with how it is metering out of my case activated drop though.



I agree 10% is unacceptable by a long lony ways. I hear 700x and 800x works well with the Lee auto disk drop but I have so much equipment at this point that I am more likely to dump the powder in leu of something a little finer, that seems to make sense to me.

Another thing im wondering is that my drop isnt adjusted so that the handle goes all the way to the top of the stroke, could that be a big part of the problem you think?
700x is a great powder that meters like crap. I used to use it for 9 and 45, but had to change to win231/hp38 which meters great and burns well.
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Old 08-01-2017, 6:56 PM
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I remember getting drops like this to its the 6-10th drop that would be bad
YMMV
Keep a close eye on it is all I would say.
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Old 08-01-2017, 7:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Don the savage View Post
700x is a great powder that meters like crap. I used to use it for 9 and 45, but had to change to win231/hp38 which meters great and burns well.
what would you suggest for .40S&W to replace the 700x for a case activated powder drop on an LnL AP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike0904 View Post
I remember getting drops like this to its the 6-10th drop that would be bad
YMMV
Keep a close eye on it is all I would say.
pretty much im just going to weigh every shell before and after powder until I get something else or until I run out of 700x
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Old 08-01-2017, 10:45 PM
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I think you will run into a problem no matter which pistol, shotgun powder you use in the LnL dropper... so live and learn I guess. keep a close eye on your powder levels is all ya need to do. I set a powder cop die to just move when I have the right amount in the case...if it doesn't move I stop and check or if it moves more than it should I check. All the pistol powders mostly work better in a slider type powder drop, its just the way it is. I thought Win 231 would be nice in the LnL but I used what I use for pistols...the LEE just because its what I do...
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Old 08-01-2017, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
what would you suggest for .40S&W to replace the 700x for a case activated powder drop on an LnL AP?



pretty much im just going to weigh every shell before and after powder until I get something else or until I run out of 700x
I use win231/hp38 for all 3. Power pistol is also a good powder i use for 10 mm and 357sig.
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Old 08-01-2017, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike0904 View Post
I think you will run into a problem no matter which pistol, shotgun powder you use in the LnL dropper... so live and learn I guess. keep a close eye on your powder levels is all ya need to do. I set a powder cop die to just move when I have the right amount in the case...if it doesn't move I stop and check or if it moves more than it should I check. All the pistol powders mostly work better in a slider type powder drop, its just the way it is. I thought Win 231 would be nice in the LnL but I used what I use for pistols...the LEE just because its what I do...
I tend to agree. I use my lnl for rifle only and have lee with the micrometer adjuster (replaces the disks) on my pistol presses
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Old 08-02-2017, 12:54 AM
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So let me ask you this. Because I LOVE ME some 700-X in .45 ACP and other calibers.

Is that the RIFLE or the PISTOL rotor/ drum you are using?

In order to get a more consistent drop I had to attach a vibrator to my rifle drum.

However, running with a pistol setup, the variance is MUCH smaller. So, sadly if you have purchased the LNL dropper and you did NOT buy a pistol setup, now is a good time to do so. On the other hand, if you did NOT buy your setup with the Pistol rotor, then now might be a good time to sell your LNL dropper and buy the RCBS Uniflow QC with a pistol tube. On the LNL dropper, the pistol and rifle tubes need different rotors. On the QC uniflow there is only ONE drum and it uses both rifle and pistol tubes without the need to replace a $3.00 o-ring or change drums for $37 more.

On case activated stuff I found that if you do NOT have that knurled bolt tightened, it will slack off and not allow the drop tube to go all of the way up, thus potentially leaving a little bit of powder in the tube. I found that checking it and tightening it every now and then will save you some headache. And YES, it DOES get loose. When it gets loose enough it allows the top portion to twist and then instead of straight up and down, the lever is moving up at an angle, that is why the tube does not go to the top like it did before.

Hope this helps.

I had issues with 800X, but 700X was MUCH more well behaved.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...highlight=800x

Last edited by stilly; 08-02-2017 at 1:15 AM..
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Old 08-02-2017, 6:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Don the savage View Post
I tend to agree. I use my lnl for rifle only and have lee with the micrometer adjuster (replaces the disks) on my pistol presses
Agree. I converted my Hornady dropper to a stand-alone, but my RCBS Uniflow still works better in that capacity. The Lee Auto-Disk with the micrometer, followed by the RCBS lockout die is the most reliable set up I've ever used.

There are issues with all of them. I had to polish the expander plugs on the Lee PTX dies before the cases would go in and out smoothly. Guys using the newer Lee Auto-DRUM report some issues as well.
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Old 08-02-2017, 6:49 AM
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Originally Posted by stilly View Post
On the other hand, if you did NOT buy your setup with the Pistol rotor, then now might be a good time to sell your LNL dropper and buy the RCBS Uniflow QC with a pistol tube. On the LNL dropper, the pistol and rifle tubes need different rotors. On the QC uniflow there is only ONE drum and it uses both rifle and pistol tubes without the need to replace a $3.00 o-ring or change drums for $37 more.
I would agree that picking up the additional rotor for the LNL would amount to throwing good money after bad. Good time to pick up a better option, whether it be the Lee or RCBS. I think that part of the reason the Lee works better for me is that it's mechanism is stupid-simple, lacking all the linkages.
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Old 08-02-2017, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by wbunning View Post
I would agree that picking up the additional rotor for the LNL would amount to throwing good money after bad. Good time to pick up a better option, whether it be the Lee or RCBS. I think that part of the reason the Lee works better for me is that it's mechanism is stupid-simple, lacking all the linkages.

I forgot to mention that the LNL dropper and the uniflow are ALSO interchangeable with the same case activated linkage. There are possibly OTHER drums out there that are also adaptable just as easily but I have not conducted that research yet. I was able to put a UNIFLOW onto the linkage though and all it needed to do was reverse the drum so the screws were in the same spot. But damn what a PITA that was, unscrew the tube, push the bolt out through the top, remove the handle, reverse the drum and reassemble...
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Old 08-02-2017, 2:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don the savage View Post
I use win231/hp38 for all 3. Power pistol is also a good powder i use for 10 mm and 357sig.
Rgr that thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by stilly View Post
So let me ask you this. Because I LOVE ME some 700-X in .45 ACP and other calibers.

Is that the RIFLE or the PISTOL rotor/ drum you are using?

In order to get a more consistent drop I had to attach a vibrator to my rifle drum.

However, running with a pistol setup, the variance is MUCH smaller. So, sadly if you have purchased the LNL dropper and you did NOT buy a pistol setup, now is a good time to do so. On the other hand, if you did NOT buy your setup with the Pistol rotor, then now might be a good time to sell your LNL dropper and buy the RCBS Uniflow QC with a pistol tube. On the LNL dropper, the pistol and rifle tubes need different rotors. On the QC uniflow there is only ONE drum and it uses both rifle and pistol tubes without the need to replace a $3.00 o-ring or change drums for $37 more.

On case activated stuff I found that if you do NOT have that knurled bolt tightened, it will slack off and not allow the drop tube to go all of the way up, thus potentially leaving a little bit of powder in the tube. I found that checking it and tightening it every now and then will save you some headache. And YES, it DOES get loose. When it gets loose enough it allows the top portion to twist and then instead of straight up and down, the lever is moving up at an angle, that is why the tube does not go to the top like it did before.

Hope this helps.

I had issues with 800X, but 700X was MUCH more well behaved.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...highlight=800x
****.....leave it to stilly....I hadn't even thought about that. I bought the AP new and it came with two rotors....I'd just assumed it was a duplicate part that Hornady gave me because powder drops tend to fail and I just used the one that was already installed in it....how do I know which is which?

I also like 700x I think you were the one who recommended it to me when I was a newbie reloader. I normally use it for 45acp too but I'm shooting more 40 these days.
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Old 08-02-2017, 5:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
....how do I know which is which?
It is really easy to tell. Removed the metering insert. The larger plunger is the rifle one, the smaller is the pistol. The cavity for the powder is much smaller in the pistol drum as well.

Both are included with the press to allow loading either rifle or handgun. If you'd bought it as a standalone unit, it would come with only the rifle drum

Quote:
what would you suggest for .40S&W to replace the 700x for a case activated powder drop on an LnL AP?
I've had very good luck with WSF, Clays, 231/HP-38, and BE-86 through the LNL powder measure.

Using WST for 9mm or Clays for .38Spl, I've had no problem holding variances in powder drop to within .05grs
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Old 08-02-2017, 6:43 PM
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Not only is there two rotors, but two adjusters for powder. Try using the pistol rotor and small adjuster; you'll should be fine. I've used 700x and 800x without issue on my LnL dropper. Periodically, your might have to clean the rotor as flake loves to chop and jam in between the rotor/wall.
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Old 08-02-2017, 8:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
It is really easy to tell. Removed the metering insert. The larger plunger is the rifle one, the smaller is the pistol. The cavity for the powder is much smaller in the pistol drum as well.

Both are included with the press to allow loading either rifle or handgun. If you'd bought it as a standalone unit, it would come with only the rifle drum


I've had very good luck with WSF, Clays, 231/HP-38, and BE-86 through the LNL powder measure.

Using WST for 9mm or Clays for .38Spl, I've had no problem holding variances in powder drop to within .05grs
LOL I was CLEARLY using the rifle drum, no wonder I was metering like ****... the rifle one is like the size of a nickle while the pistol one is like the size of a pencil eraser. I never even looked in there, that part of the powder drop was already assembled when I bought the press, it never even occured to me that there were two different types.

Thank you very much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GUNNTZ View Post
Not only is there two rotors, but two adjusters for powder. Try using the pistol rotor and small adjuster; you'll should be fine. I've used 700x and 800x without issue on my LnL dropper. Periodically, your might have to clean the rotor as flake loves to chop and jam in between the rotor/wall.
by adjuster do you mean you mean the part that locks into the drum, the lever that comes up on the drum when the powder drop is activated?

I dont think the rifle one would fit right?
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  #31  
Old 08-02-2017, 8:30 PM
stilly stilly is offline
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Originally Posted by wbunning View Post
Agree. I converted my Hornady dropper to a stand-alone, but my RCBS Uniflow still works better in that capacity. The Lee Auto-Disk with the micrometer, followed by the RCBS lockout die is the most reliable set up I've ever used.

There are issues with all of them. I had to polish the expander plugs on the Lee PTX dies before the cases would go in and out smoothly. Guys using the newer Lee Auto-DRUM report some issues as well.
Link to equipment used to polish?

I THINK I polished mine. It was almost mirror smooth, but I was guessing on everything I did and in the end, it did go in and out like butter instead of holding on and BUMPING but yeah anyways...

I think I have some reddish paste or rouge or something in a little dremel tub and some cotton/cloth wheels for the dremel. But how does one polish for reals?


Oh and Mr. Redemption, load some more and see if the variance has changed now.
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  #32  
Old 08-02-2017, 8:39 PM
Redemption Redemption is offline
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Originally Posted by stilly View Post
Link to equipment used to polish?

I THINK I polished mine. It was almost mirror smooth, but I was guessing on everything I did and in the end, it did go in and out like butter instead of holding on and BUMPING but yeah anyways...

I think I have some reddish paste or rouge or something in a little dremel tub and some cotton/cloth wheels for the dremel. But how does one polish for reals?


Oh and Mr. Redemption, load some more and see if the variance has changed now.
I was actually doing that as you posted. Variance test results:

4.3
4.3
4.4
4.3
4.3
4.3
4.3
4.3
4.5
4.2
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  #33  
Old 08-02-2017, 8:43 PM
checkenbach checkenbach is offline
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Using a pistol drum(smaller volume) may help a bit...
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  #34  
Old 08-02-2017, 8:55 PM
Redemption Redemption is offline
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Originally Posted by stilly View Post
Link to equipment used to polish?

I THINK I polished mine. It was almost mirror smooth, but I was guessing on everything I did and in the end, it did go in and out like butter instead of holding on and BUMPING but yeah anyways...

I think I have some reddish paste or rouge or something in a little dremel tub and some cotton/cloth wheels for the dremel. But how does one polish for reals?


Oh and Mr. Redemption, load some more and see if the variance has changed now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkenbach View Post
Using a pistol drum(smaller volume) may help a bit...
it sure seems to be... LOL
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  #35  
Old 08-03-2017, 5:18 AM
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wbunning wbunning is offline
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Originally Posted by stilly View Post
Link to equipment used to polish
I don't have a link to my garage, but what I did was to make an arbor out of an appropriate size stove bolt. I slipped a washer over the bolt, then the expander plug, then another washer, then snugged that sandwich up against the bolt head with a nut. Then I chucked the bolt/arbor into my drill press. One could use crocus cloth, but I used a strip of cotton about 1" wide and 8" long and smeared some simi-chrome polish on it. Turn on the drill press at a low speed. Stretch the polishing strip between two hands, pull it up against the plug, and shine 'er up. I did that with all of those dies that I have. You need a couple of different sized bolts.
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  #36  
Old 08-03-2017, 6:07 AM
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smoothy8500 smoothy8500 is offline
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Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
I was actually doing that as you posted. Variance test results:

4.3
4.3
4.4
4.3
4.3
4.3
4.3
4.3
4.5
4.2
With flake powder that's pretty good, and in my experience, not enough variance to affect pistol groups.
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  #37  
Old 08-03-2017, 9:05 AM
SandDiegoDuner SandDiegoDuner is offline
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Years ago I sprayed the internals of my powder dropper with graphite spray. After it dries to the touch, use something to burnish the graphite onto the surface until it has a glossy smooth finish. Powder will not stick to this surface and powder drop variance should not be more than 0.1 grains. Powdered graphite will also work for the hopper tube, do not use the spray graphite as the propellant can cause the hopper tube to crack. It just takes a lot more work to get a nice burnished finish on the powder hopper with powdered graphite.
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  #38  
Old 08-03-2017, 9:50 AM
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noylj noylj is offline
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NO, the problem is today's OCD need to exactness, when such is not needed.
Added to that, you take the powder most famous for indifferent metering and try to make it "play nice" with your idea of how things should be.
Go to AA2, 231/HP38, or N320 and never look back.
You know, unless you are into long-range handgun shooting, +/- 0.2gn will not affect accuracy. Try some and prove it to yourself. This has been discussed for about 6-10 decades with 700X and the various Alliant flake powders that the conclusion was always the same--it just doesn't matter.
Next, you have a powder measure that is as good as almost any and better than most.
You can try to install a vibrator/aquarium pump/etc.
You can try to keep the hopper full
You can try to clean it per Hornady instructions and then run a whole hopper of 700X through it to get it graphitized (or just run some powdered graphite through it).
But, bottom line, you have the exact same "issues" everyone has had with 700X since it came out.
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  #39  
Old 08-03-2017, 1:49 PM
pacrat pacrat is offline
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redemption View Post
I was actually doing that as you posted. Variance test results:

4.3
4.3
4.4
4.3
4.3
4.3
4.3
4.3
4.5
4.2
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothy8500 View Post
With flake powder that's pretty good, and in my experience, not enough variance to affect pistol groups.
I concur with "smoothy". If you had a "bench mounted" measure. You could, further limit variations with proper consistent measure activation procedures.

But with a linkage activated measure. Too many wiggles, jiggles, bumps, and jerks, are getting transferred to the measure from the machine it is mounted to.

JM2c
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  #40  
Old 08-03-2017, 8:37 PM
Redemption Redemption is offline
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These are just target midloads, if I stay within 4.2-4.5 I dont think that is too much of a problem

Last edited by Redemption; 08-03-2017 at 8:40 PM..
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