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  #1  
Old 11-27-2016, 6:20 PM
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Angry What to do? Pistol NOT pointing downrange!

Some patrons just do NOT want to be told by anyone else... *ugh*

Am wondering how any of you would have done if you were in my situation?

I was a the OC Indoor Range a few hours back. The RSO called for a ceasefire because he had to fix one of the targets.

We move back from the firing line and I see the patron right to me has his pistol pointing to my lane (not downrange).

I ask him, "... is that your gun? Could you please point the gun downrange?"

He replies with, "... it's OK. It's unloaded..."

I responded with "... excuse me?" while trying to keep the urge to tell him about the Safety Rules...

He continued, ".... as you can see, the action is open, and you can see it's unloaded..."

I really kept the urge in debating with him, because in actuality, even if the action were open, the gun was on it's right-side, hence, you can't actually see the ejection port and/or chamber!

All I then said, "... fine with me, do you want me to check with the RSO...?"

He goes, "... the RSO saw the gun like it was before we walked downrange, he seemed fine with it..."

I just cut him, "... no, I'll just check with the RSO..."

After the ceasefire, RSO comes back, and I asked him about leaving guns while away from the firing line and told him about the patron to my right.

So, patron moved the pistol correctly and told the RSO I was kind of being a dick or something... I just went "... What...?" I paused, "... okay, as long as the gun is now pointed in the right direction, I'm fine..."

I know I don't have much experience under my belt, but still, the Safety Rules are there, and should be abided by and understood by all shooters regardless of level.

*sorry for the rant*

But then, what would you have done?


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  #2  
Old 11-27-2016, 6:24 PM
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Old 11-27-2016, 6:29 PM
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At the very least common courtesy, nevermind safety, would dictate not pointing your gun in someone's direction unless intended. Some folks are less safe than they could be and certainly inconsiderate.
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  #4  
Old 11-27-2016, 6:30 PM
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Originally Posted by farmerjoe View Post
Exactly my sentiments!!!

In hindsight, I felt that he felt offended about me raising the concern.

*ugh* If he were in any shooting class, etc. he would have been shouted at! I remember one CRSO tell me once, "... always have MUZZLE discipline..."
  #5  
Old 11-27-2016, 6:35 PM
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rodralig for RSO!

Rules are rules and I commend you for taking the high road.
  #6  
Old 11-27-2016, 6:42 PM
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As long as he wasn't handling it in an unsafe manner I would have just MYOB. Slide was back and guns don't typically pull their own triggers. Me personally BFD.
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  #7  
Old 11-27-2016, 6:43 PM
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Originally Posted by aca72 View Post
rodralig for RSO!



Rules are rules and I commend you for taking the high road.


And yes, considering my safety was on the line...

*LOL*




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Last edited by rodralig; 11-27-2016 at 7:58 PM..
  #8  
Old 11-27-2016, 6:45 PM
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Originally Posted by StuckInTheP.R.O.Ca View Post
As long as he wasn't handling it in an unsafe manner I would have just MYOB. Slide was back and guns don't typically pull their own triggers. Me personally BFD.


Pardon my ignorance, but what is BFD...?




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Last edited by rodralig; 11-27-2016 at 7:58 PM..
  #9  
Old 11-27-2016, 6:46 PM
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Unfortunately, many of the RSO are completely oblivious or worse committing the same dangerous errors.

The only thing they seem to notice or care about is rapid fire...

I remember some ranges, where if you broke any of the basic safety rules you were ejected for the day. No warning, go home.
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  #10  
Old 11-27-2016, 6:59 PM
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Originally Posted by GlockN'Roll View Post
Unfortunately, many of the RSO are completely oblivious or worse committing the same dangerous errors.

The only thing they seem to notice or care about is rapid fire...

I remember some ranges, where if you broke any of the basic safety rules you were ejected for the day. No warning, go home.


Nice range! Only way IMO to instill safety consciousness...




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Last edited by rodralig; 11-27-2016 at 7:59 PM..
  #11  
Old 11-27-2016, 7:02 PM
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NOPE ...! - I'll let you know RIGHT NOW and I just simply DGAF what you or you friend or the guy at the next lane think about me ... you are gonna know what firearm safety is if YOU cannot display utterly simplistic firearm safety on a HOT range ... mind your own effing business. The guy wants a lesson in public embarrassment ... I don't care about mind your business when a firearm is pointed in my direction ... ESPECIALLY on a fire range.
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Old 11-27-2016, 7:05 PM
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  #13  
Old 11-27-2016, 7:21 PM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Pardon my ignorance, but what is BFD...?




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BFD= big fvcking deal!

Basically dude is saying you are blowing a tiny situation way out of proportion, like a drama queen.

I agree with him, yes the saftey is important but if you can blatantly see that the gun is empty and nobody is near it there is no possible way a discharge could occur then don't be a douche just politely mention keeping it pointed down range or tell the RO to tell them then go on about your business don't be a saftey nazi and ruin other shooters range trip.
  #14  
Old 11-27-2016, 7:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ZirconJohn View Post
NOPE ...! - I'll let you know RIGHT NOW and I just simply DGAF what you or you friend or the guy at the next lane think about me ... you are gonna know what firearm safety is if YOU cannot display utterly simplistic firearm safety on a HOT range ... mind your own effing business. The guy wants a lesson in public embarrassment ... I don't care about mind your business when a firearm is pointed in my direction ... ESPECIALLY on a fire range.
^^^^THIS^^^^
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  #15  
Old 11-27-2016, 7:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ZirconJohn View Post
NOPE ...! - I'll let you know RIGHT NOW and I just simply DGAF what you or you friend or the guy at the next lane think about me ... you are gonna know what firearm safety is if YOU cannot display utterly simplistic firearm safety on a HOT range ... mind your own effing business. The guy wants a lesson in public embarrassment ... I don't care about mind your business when a firearm is pointed in my direction ... ESPECIALLY on a fire range.
This pretty much sums it all up.

To everyone saying that it's not a big deal...you guys are Darwin's children.

The first rule of firearm safety is ALWAYS treat every firearm as though it is loaded...
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  #16  
Old 11-27-2016, 7:44 PM
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Originally Posted by SoldierLife7 View Post
This pretty much sums it all up.

To everyone saying that it's not a big deal...you guys are Darwin's children.

The first rule of firearm safety is ALWAYS treat every firearm as though it is loaded...
WRONG. First rule of firearm safety is ban them before they come alive and start shooting people when they are sitting inert. I am all for firearm safety but getting in a panic about where a unmanned unloaded firearm is pointed while it is sitting on the bench during a closed firing line is going to make you old before your time.

We win more 2A friendly voters with honey then we do with vinegar. I would suggest nicely they leave it pointed down range next time and let it go. I see 20 worse safety violations every time I go to the range by RO and self appointed operators.
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  #17  
Old 11-27-2016, 7:53 PM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
The RSO called for a ceasefire because he had to fix one of the targets.

We move back from the firing line and I see the patron right to me has his pistol pointing to my lane (not downrange).

_
Okay so you make your firearms safe then everyone steps back and instead of having his gun pointed down range toward the RO it is pointed down the firing line WHICH IS UNOCCUPIED. Due to the cease fire. So your gun is pointed at a person and his gun is not and you are mad because his empty gun with nobody near it is pointed in a direction that nobody is in.
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Old 11-27-2016, 7:55 PM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
WRONG. First rule of firearm safety is ban them before they come alive and start shooting people when they are sitting inert. I am all for firearm safety but getting in a panic about where a unmanned unloaded firearm is pointed while it is sitting on the bench during a closed firing line is going to make you old before your time.

We win more 2A friendly voters with honey then we do with vinegar. I would suggest nicely they leave it pointed down range next time and let it go. I see 20 worse safety violations every time I go to the range by RO and self appointed operators.
I meant the first one you learn in firearm safety classes. The first one that the NRA teaches. The first one on practically every rules poster anywhere in the United States.

You are referring to the first one that "progressives" in California preach.

I completely agree that being nice is the way to go (I see it as an opportunity to make a new friend while educating them about safety)...but I can't get behind the "MYOB" crowd. I consider EVERY firearm to be loaded, and it is MY business when a firearm is pointed in my direction.

I've been shooting for 30+ years, and have 16+ years in the military. I am no longer surprised when an "unloaded" firearm "accidentally" (negligently) goes off. I've seen it too many times.
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  #19  
Old 11-27-2016, 7:59 PM
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Lying on a bench with the action open .... eh .... I wouldn't let it worry me but YMMV as they say. Guy should have turned it though, if you let him know it bothered you. Sometimes people treat the "assume it's loaded" rule a little too literally. When you go to strip and clean it, do you clear it, then clear it, then clear it ... and never get past that? No. Obviously at some point you know you just cleared it and you can proceed KNOWING it's clear.

Action open - it's clear.

LAX Range last week, now, I saw some motion peripherally, glanced over, an older couple (my age ...) were taking pictures of a couple young guys posing with some handguns while facing away from the targets. Saying muzzle discipline was lax would understate it. They saw me looking and quit it before I could WTF them, but damn. Not locked open. Not on the bench. Not good.
  #20  
Old 11-27-2016, 8:01 PM
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Sometimes it's easier just to be a dick and tell the guy not to point the gun towards you.

I have better success being more direct than being polite. Especially when it's such a big safety violation possibly resulting in my harm/death.
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Old 11-27-2016, 8:02 PM
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Practicing safety at all times avoids unnecessary accidents.
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Old 11-27-2016, 8:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Pardon my ignorance, but what is BFD...?




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BFD= Big f****** deal. Like I said that's me personally.
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Old 11-27-2016, 8:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
We move back from the firing line and I see the patron right to me has his pistol pointing to my lane (not downrange).

_
If the gun is pointed sideways and everyone is stepped back, the muzzle isn't pointed at you, because you'd be parallel to it?
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Old 11-27-2016, 8:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ZirconJohn View Post
NOPE ...! - I'll let you know RIGHT NOW and I just simply DGAF what you or you friend or the guy at the next lane think about me ... you are gonna know what firearm safety is if YOU cannot display utterly simplistic firearm safety on a HOT range ... mind your own effing business. The guy wants a lesson in public embarrassment ... I don't care about mind your business when a firearm is pointed in my direction ... ESPECIALLY on a fire range.
This^^^^^

Bottom line is all guns are loaded and should be pointed in a safe direction......
Always.

No exceptions.

Practicing good habits will keep you out of trouble.
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Old 11-27-2016, 8:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ktmguy View Post
Okay so you make your firearms safe then everyone steps back and instead of having his gun pointed down range toward the RO it is pointed down the firing line WHICH IS UNOCCUPIED. Due to the cease fire. So your gun is pointed at a person and his gun is not and you are mad because his empty gun with nobody near it is pointed in a direction that nobody is in.
^This. I was thinking the same thing. Does no one care about the safety of that poor RO with all those "loaded" weapons pointed at him.
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Last edited by StuckInTheP.R.O.Ca; 11-27-2016 at 9:22 PM..
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Old 11-27-2016, 8:06 PM
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Complacency kills.
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Old 11-27-2016, 8:08 PM
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Rather than being confrontational I would have asked to be moved to a different lane someplace FAR away from the idiot. I grew up with firearms since I was about 6 and for the last 40 years I always always taught to use the same two safety rules, move far away if you can. If you can't, then you leave.

I have had one incident a few years ago with a father who was not watching his son closely enough and the barrel of a loaded 22 came over in my direction when I yelled at both of them and swept the pistol barrel back down range. After the incident I left.
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Old 11-27-2016, 8:17 PM
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I would report to the RSO, and if he did nothing, I would never return to that range.

I don't like having guns pointed at me. Someone who does it with an open action might do it with a closed action next time, maybe loaded, maybe when you're not looking.

Personally I have a zero tolerance policy for unsafe gun handling practices. Not because I'm a "dick", but because I enjoy being alive and only having holes in my body where God put them.
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Old 11-27-2016, 8:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktmguy View Post
BFD= big fvcking deal!

Basically dude is saying you are blowing a tiny situation way out of proportion, like a drama queen.

I agree with him, yes the saftey is important but if you can blatantly see that the gun is empty and nobody is near it there is no possible way a discharge could occur then don't be a douche just politely mention keeping it pointed down range or tell the RO to tell them then go on about your business don't be a saftey nazi and ruin other shooters range trip.
I did tell him politely but he reacted with "... it's okay, it's NOT loaded..."

So, I guess I have to assume that he properly cleared the pistol?


Quote:
Originally Posted by cvigue View Post
Lying on a bench with the action open .... eh .... I wouldn't let it worry me but YMMV as they say. Guy should have turned it though, if you let him know it bothered you. Sometimes people treat the "assume it's loaded" rule a little too literally. When you go to strip and clean it, do you clear it, then clear it, then clear it ... and never get past that? No. Obviously at some point you know you just cleared it and you can proceed KNOWING it's clear.

Action open - it's clear.

LAX Range last week, now, I saw some motion peripherally, glanced over, an older couple (my age ...) were taking pictures of a couple young guys posing with some handguns while facing away from the targets. Saying muzzle discipline was lax would understate it. They saw me looking and quit it before I could WTF them, but damn. Not locked open. Not on the bench. Not good.
Pardon me for taking my safety classes too literal... But, even though the action was locked open, pistol was down on its right-side. As I have learned from, again, safety classes - the reason that pistols are placed down on the left-side is to clearly show "clear," which in this case, wasn't clear...?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ktmguy View Post
Okay so you make your firearms safe then everyone steps back and instead of having his gun pointed down range toward the RO it is pointed down the firing line WHICH IS UNOCCUPIED. Due to the cease fire. So your gun is pointed at a person and his gun is not and you are mad because his empty gun with nobody near it is pointed in a direction that nobody is in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnylawless View Post
Rather than being confrontational I would have asked to be moved to a different lane someplace FAR away from the idiot. I grew up with firearms since I was about 6 and for the last 40 years I always always taught to use the same two safety rules, move far away if you can. If you can't, then you leave.
Actually, after the ceasefire - had glanced (through a crack/opening between the bays / hey, I was conscious/concerned) a few times that when the guy was reloading, the pistol was STILL pointed in MY direction.

At that point - I told myself, "... I'm out of here..."

But all said - this is a TERRIFIC IDEA. I'll do this the next time....

------

That said, it seems that what was learned in safety class is so much different in the real world - open to interpretations, tolerance, POV, etc. to individuals... And for the risk of sounding politically incorrect - you learn to MYOB.... Or, as suggested above, "... just walk away..."

I guess I have new fodder when I get the chance to talk to my instructor for that class... Would be interested in hearing his thoughts on this...


_
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Last edited by rodralig; 11-27-2016 at 8:38 PM..
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Old 11-27-2016, 8:21 PM
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The main point I would differ with you, is I wouldn't have said "downrange" because in certain circumstances "downrange" isn't in the safe direction. I would have emphasized, always point in a "safe direction".
His firearm clearly wasn't pointed in a safe direction.
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Old 11-27-2016, 8:23 PM
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The main point I would differ with you, is I wouldn't have said "downrange" because in certain circumstances "downrange" isn't in the safe direction. I would have emphasized, always point in a "safe direction".
His firearm clearly wasn't pointed in a safe direction.
Insightful! Thanks!

I'll make a mental note of this going forward....


_
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Old 11-27-2016, 8:33 PM
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Originally Posted by solipsism View Post
Complacency kills.
This, and it should be applied everywhere and to everything.

I remember seeing it spray painted on a few HESCO barriers every time we ever left a fob in Iraq.

Complacency kills gents.
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Old 11-27-2016, 8:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Pardon me for taking my safety classes too literal...
So how DO you get past the stage when you clear the pistol during field stripping?





You KNOW it's unloaded after you clear it and (violating the literal interpretation of the safety rule!!11!) strip it.


Or you never clean it. Which I doubt.
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Old 11-27-2016, 8:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oceanbob View Post
This^^^^^

Bottom line is all guns are loaded and should be pointed in a safe direction......
Always.

No exceptions.

Practicing good habits will keep you out of trouble.
So does this apply to cased firearms also. When transporting your "loaded" cased firearm what is a safe direction? Would it be unsafe to put them in your trunk facing to the left or right or do they have to be pointed straght down at all times? What about "loaded" handguns in a range bag. How do you keep track of what direction their pointing at all times? I frequently carry a loaded holstered firearm. Is this safe? How about guns in a gun store. I have seen several where they have "loaded" display guns pointed in an "unsafe" direction. Should I point this out to those gun stores what an unsafe practice this is?
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  #35  
Old 11-27-2016, 8:45 PM
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So does this apply to cased firearms also. When transporting your "loaded" cased firearm what is a safe direction? Would it be unsafe to put them in your trunk facing to the left or right or do they have to be pointed straght down at all times? What about "loaded" handguns in a range bag. How do you keep track of what direction their pointing at all times? I frequently carry a loaded holstered firearm. Is this safe? How about guns in a gun store. I have seen several where they have "loaded" display guns pointed in an "unsafe" direction. Should I point this out to those gun stores what an unsafe practice this is?
Exactly.

A person has to use some discernment and understand what class(es) of accidents this rule is designed to prevent. The dickweeds who were waving their guns around for a photo-op in LAX Range were prime examples of flagrant violators IMO.

The rule is phrased simply but the concept is that one should never assume a firearm in an unknown condition is clear, and also, people have an understandable and visceral reaction to being swept. I literally NEVER worry that the pistols in the case are going to blow my dick off.
  #36  
Old 11-27-2016, 8:54 PM
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Exactly.

A person has to use some discernment and understand what class(es) of accidents this rule is designed to prevent. The dickweeds who were waving their guns around for a photo-op in LAX Range were prime examples of flagrant violators IMO.

The rule is phrased simply but the concept is that one should never assume a firearm in an unknown condition is clear, and also, people have an understandable and visceral reaction to being swept. I literally NEVER worry that the pistols in the case are going to blow my dick off.
Pragmatic - but in my situation... Short of just telling the RSO; instead of politely asking the other guy to keep the pistol pointed in 'safe' (not 'downrange' as already explained by another reply) OR just walking away - what would be the most recommended course of action?

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  #37  
Old 11-27-2016, 8:56 PM
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Okay so you make your firearms safe then everyone steps back and instead of having his gun pointed down range toward the RO it is pointed down the firing line WHICH IS UNOCCUPIED. Due to the cease fire. So your gun is pointed at a person and his gun is not and you are mad because his empty gun with nobody near it is pointed in a direction that nobody is in.
Damn...got 'em!

Just kidding, OP. I agree with you. He should have been polite and done as you asked from the start. I think I would have asked him to point it down range one more time before threatening to call the RO, but if he didn't I would probably make a big deal out of it, because he obviously wanted to.
  #38  
Old 11-27-2016, 9:01 PM
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Pragmatic - but in my situation... Short of just telling the RSO; instead of politely asking the other guy to keep the pistol pointed in 'safe' (not 'downrange' as already explained by another reply) OR just walking away - what would be the most recommended course of action?

_

I can tell if the action is open no matter which side the pistol is lying on, for both every semi-auto and every revolver I've ever seen. Something like a Remington XP-100 I guess it could get a little ambiguous but I doubt that's going to happen much.

So, it's lying on a bench, locked open, and we've all stepped back from the line.


I'd be OK with it. Firearms are incredibly reliable devices. I used to (and will again) wear one in my pants, loaded and ready to rock. It's the ones that are being handled I worry about.
  #39  
Old 11-27-2016, 9:09 PM
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I did tell him politely but he reacted with "... it's okay, it's NOT loaded..."

So, I guess I have to assume that he properly cleared the pistol?




Pardon me for taking my safety classes too literal... But, even though the action was locked open, pistol was down on its right-side. As I have learned from, again, safety classes - the reason that pistols are placed down on the left-side is to clearly show "clear," which in this case, wasn't clear...?






Actually, after the ceasefire - had glanced (through a crack/opening between the bays / hey, I was conscious/concerned) a few times that when the guy was reloading, the pistol was STILL pointed in MY direction.

At that point - I told myself, "... I'm out of here..."

But all said - this is a TERRIFIC IDEA. I'll do this the next time....

------

That said, it seems that what was learned in safety class is so much different in the real world - open to interpretations, tolerance, POV, etc. to individuals... And for the risk of sounding politically incorrect - you learn to MYOB.... Or, as suggested above, "... just walk away..."

I guess I have new fodder when I get the chance to talk to my instructor for that class... Would be interested in hearing his thoughts on this...


_
Op. If I read your story right. You were trying to get this guy to correct the situation while the RO was downrange. Is this correct?
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  #40  
Old 11-27-2016, 9:12 PM
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Op. If I read your story right. You were trying to get this guy to correct the situation while the RO was downrange. Is this correct?
Nope - that wasn't the intent as moving back to the firing line while someone is out in the range is a safety violation.

All I wanted was for him to be conscious of how he lays down the pistol (during ceasefire, during a hot range, during reloading, etc.) on the bay which is NOT pointed in my lane.

Could it be a miscommunication issue then?


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