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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 02-27-2012, 7:01 PM
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Default Psychological Testing Requirement for CCW/LTC

Please educate me on this. I know nothing about this requirement.

Didn't want to threadjack the Monterey Sheriff thread.

If it's a psych exam, why does it have to be THEIR psychologist? Why can't it be ANY licensed psychologist? You can get a checkup for a physical clearance from almost any licensed practicing physician.

Why would any interview or psych exam take "a few hours"? I doubt I would feel comfortable answering the kind of questions that we'd get to after a few hours worth of questioning.

(I can wear women's underwear if I want to... Torrid carries my size.)


Not to simplify the matter too much, but do they just poke at you for 2 hours trying to get a specific reaction out of you? I can't imagine that they can legally FORCE you to answer anything.

If you refuse to answer their questions, are you automatically rejected for a CCW/LTC?
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Old 02-27-2012, 8:15 PM
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Originally Posted by voiceofreason View Post
If it's a psych exam, why does it have to be THEIR psychologist? Why can't it be ANY licensed psychologist? You can get a checkup for a physical clearance from almost any licensed practicing physician.


They could require you to go to a phsychologist who is rarely available or that fails everyone, which whom the department would never send their own people. Just off the top of my head
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  #3  
Old 02-28-2012, 6:57 AM
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Basically the MCSO GMC evaluation is patterned directly after their process for evaluating applicants for sheriff's deputy positions (not that they are hiring... But I suppose this gives the folks that normally do this work something to do despite the hiring freeze).
The intrusive interview with VSA, psych exam, and neighbor/coworker interviews are all things that hopeful prospective deputies must undergo. The venue for the psych eval is the one the department uses (I think... someone that knows for a fact may correct me here).
As Librarian noted in the other thread, the psych test being used appears to be the MMPI test or a variant of it.
We'll see how the numbers continue to play out, but it's looking like the approval rate under Miller has decreased rather than increased, relative to that under Kanalakis.
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Old 02-28-2012, 7:05 AM
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Originally Posted by voiceofreason View Post
Please educate me on this. I know nothing about this requirement.

Didn't want to threadjack the Monterey Sheriff thread.

If it's a psych exam, why does it have to be THEIR psychologist? Why can't it be ANY licensed psychologist? You can get a checkup for a physical clearance from almost any licensed practicing physician.

Why would any interview or psych exam take "a few hours"? I doubt I would feel comfortable answering the kind of questions that we'd get to after a few hours worth of questioning.

(I can wear women's underwear if I want to... Torrid carries my size.)


Not to simplify the matter too much, but do they just poke at you for 2 hours trying to get a specific reaction out of you? I can't imagine that they can legally FORCE you to answer anything.

If you refuse to answer their questions, are you automatically rejected for a CCW/LTC?
The Penal Code requires that the test be done with the same psycologist that the Dept. uses for screening it's own employees. That's why.

If the written pstch eval is the same they use for screening LEO applicants....it just take a few hours to get thru.....it's LONG!
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  #5  
Old 02-28-2012, 9:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
The Penal Code requires that the test be done with the same psycologist that the Dept. uses for screening it's own employees. That's why.
What he said.

Penal Code 26190
(f)(1) If psychological testing on the initial application is required by the licensing authority, the license applicant shall be referred to a licensed psychologist used by the licensing authority for the psychological testing of its own employees. The applicant may be charged for the actual cost of the testing in an amount not to exceed one hundred fifty dollars ($150).
(2) Additional psychological testing of an applicant seeking license renewal shall be required only if there is compelling evidence to indicate that a test is necessary. The cost to the applicant for this additional testing shall not exceed one hundred fifty dollars ($150).
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Old 02-28-2012, 10:36 PM
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The achilles heel here is that EVERYONE must now be subject to the psych eval. Everyone... Heh.

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  #7  
Old 02-29-2012, 1:32 AM
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Default Voice stress test.

Notice he also wants a voice stress test. Can he also require this.
Seems to me that this is being done to discourage applicants.

BTW, who pays for this lie detector tests?

Nicki
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Old 02-29-2012, 3:11 AM
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Wow. First time I have seen a county require a Psychological Exam. I think the fees are on you, and the county provides a list of certified examiners.

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Old 02-29-2012, 4:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
The achilles heel here is that EVERYONE must now be subject to the psych eval. Everyone... Heh.

-Gene
yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicki View Post
Notice he also wants a voice stress test. Can he also require this.
Seems to me that this is being done to discourage applicants.

BTW, who pays for this lie detector tests?

Nicki
VSA is part of initial interview (after LiveScan) and cost is included in $135 application fee.
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Wow. First time I have seen a county require a Psychological Exam. I think the fees are on you, and the county provides a list of certified examiners.

Sent from my mobile using Tapatalk
the "list" is exactly 1 examiner long, as noted previously, PC 26190(f)(1) requires MCSO to use the same examiner for applicants as they use themselves.
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  #10  
Old 02-29-2012, 5:39 AM
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Originally Posted by goober View Post
yep.


VSA is part of initial interview (after LiveScan) and cost is included in $135 application fee.

the "list" is exactly 1 examiner long, as noted previously, PC 26190(f)(1) requires MCSO to use the same examiner for applicants as they use themselves.
Whoops. Glossed over the PC code. That makes the list pretty short

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  #11  
Old 02-29-2012, 6:32 AM
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Well, hell even my college psych professor said I was crazy. I learned how to "fool" the lie-detector test, best he had ever seen.
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  #12  
Old 02-29-2012, 8:09 AM
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I just took the MMPI2 on line. I think I failed...
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  #13  
Old 02-29-2012, 8:19 AM
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This is the same test the federal government uses for federal agents you know like the one who shot his supervisor last week>
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  #14  
Old 02-29-2012, 8:23 AM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
The achilles heel here is that EVERYONE must now be subject to the psych eval. Everyone... Heh.

-Gene
In the article he stated renewing LTC holders wouldn't be required to take the psych eval. Is that legal? Or will they be legally obligated to take the eval too if they had not been required to previously?
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  #15  
Old 02-29-2012, 8:30 AM
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Maybe he had 'subtle psychotic deviancy'.... It seems to be going around.

Do you ever get the feeling that psychiatrists are full of ****? Do you think they take points off if you tell them that?
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  #16  
Old 02-29-2012, 8:33 AM
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Why not just go through and get hired as a deputy?? Really, a VSA is wholly unreliable. FBI tests show there is over a 50% chance you will get a wrong reaction on the VSA.

Lie Detectors for the general public are an invasion of your privacy. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:37 AM
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Lie Detectors for the general public are an invasion of your privacy. Just my 2 cents.
They are also notoriously unreliable in part because being interviewed is stressful for some even when telling the truth.
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
In the article he stated renewing LTC holders wouldn't be required to take the psych eval. Is that legal?
Yes, and such a policy is indeed compelled by law:

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Additional psychological testing of an applicant seeking
license renewal shall be required only if there is compelling
evidence to indicate that a test is necessary. The cost to the
applicant for this additional testing shall not exceed one hundred
fifty dollars ($150).
Cal. Penal Code. Section 26190(f)(2).

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Old 02-29-2012, 12:24 PM
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I just took the MMPI2 on line. I think I failed...
I couldn't find the whole test but this site has the first 75 of the 567 questions. Man, there are some doozies in there...
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Old 02-29-2012, 1:44 PM
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I couldn't find the whole test but this site has the first 75 of the 567 questions. Man, there are some doozies in there...
The one I always remember was "Do you like tall women?" WTF? Well yeah.....but I also like short women too! LOL
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Old 02-29-2012, 1:52 PM
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Originally Posted by wazdat View Post
I couldn't find the whole test but this site has the first 75 of the 567 questions. Man, there are some doozies in there...
WTF?
14.I have diarrhea once a month or more

What is this?
70.I used to like drop-the-handkerchief
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Old 02-29-2012, 3:42 PM
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What is this?
70.I used to like drop-the-handkerchief
I had to google it after reading the questions. Sounds like a kids game similar to duck duck goose.
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Old 02-29-2012, 6:06 PM
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So would it be legal to show up to the psych testing and simply hand the tester a small business card with "I plead the 5th" printed on it, and then refuse to talk or do anything for the hour or so?
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Old 02-29-2012, 6:23 PM
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Might b legal, but my understanding is
Completely guessing here, don't quote me
My guess is, the psych guy makes a 'recommendation' to the dept at conclusion if eval
The next guess would be if you pled 5, his recommendation would not be favorable
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Old 02-29-2012, 6:29 PM
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So would it be legal to show up to the psych testing and simply hand the tester a small business card with "I plead the 5th" printed on it, and then refuse to talk or do anything for the hour or so?
sure it would be legal, but i'd bet a large sum of $$ that you would not get your LTC if you did so (not that you necessarily would if you cooperated either).
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Old 02-29-2012, 6:29 PM
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One bark for "yes", two barks for "no"... Should provide for an interesting interview...
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Old 02-29-2012, 6:31 PM
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The MMPI was standardized by giving it to several groups of folks who had been carefully diagnosed with various mental illnesses; the theory is, the more similar a testee's answers are to the standardization groups, the more likely he has a similar problem.

They're designed to get you to over-think.

The one that caught me the first time I took it (must have taken it 10 or more times now, was a Psych major ) was

My father was a good man.

Well, at the time, my father still lived. Whaddaya mean, 'was'?

If you really want to know about psych tests, the standard reference is Buros "Mental Measurements Yearbook"; the book is often available in larger libraries. Or, apparently, the reviews can be found online - http://buros.unl.edu/buros/jsp/search.jsp - if you want to pay for them.
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Old 02-29-2012, 6:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
If you really want to know about psych tests, the standard reference is Buros "Mental Measurements Yearbook"; the book is often available in larger libraries. Or, apparently, the reviews can be found online - http://buros.unl.edu/buros/jsp/search.jsp - if you want to pay for them.
Is it available on kindle
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Old 02-29-2012, 6:46 PM
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Is it available on kindle
Doesn't seem to be - http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...arbook&x=0&y=0

Hardcover, around $200

Pretty specialized thing.
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Old 02-29-2012, 6:51 PM
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Do you ever get the feeling that psychiatrists are full of ****? Do you think they take points off if you tell them that?
You betcher bippy they do!
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Old 03-02-2012, 4:46 PM
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The MMPI was standardized by giving it to several groups of folks who had been carefully diagnosed with various mental illnesses; the theory is, the more similar a testee's answers are to the standardization groups, the more likely he has a similar problem.
If someone with a problem takes the MMPI enough times, they can learn what the questions are getting at, and can then answer them to make the results turn out roughly how they want! Psychological testing can favor some that have extensive experience with the mental health system but never threw up a flag!
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