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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #1  
Old 02-24-2012, 10:33 AM
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Default AAR: Frank Proctor Way Of The Gun Rifle/Pistol

Out of curiosity, have any of you guys taken training out of state? The cost difference is usually substantial since you don't have to factor in travel and lodging so I'm interested to hear from those that did travel, what made you decide to pursue that approach?
I'm headed out with a small group in April since the trainer has a unique set of skills that were difficult to find in state. Ideally, I wish this guy lived in CA but them's the breaks.

Last edited by SuperSet; 04-18-2012 at 7:14 PM.. Reason: Changed to more accurate title
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:45 AM
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I am curious, what training are you taking?

I have considered traveling for training but the airfare is the main thing that precludes me from doing it. The logistics with the firearms are ok but the ammunition is a big pain in the ***. I can usually find something firearms related in state that is similar to the out of state training.

The main courses I'm thinking of traveling out of state to take would be something offered by Sayoc tactical or a survival course offered by somone that is very reputable in that area.

Last edited by Kempfer; 02-24-2012 at 10:56 AM..
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:19 AM
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Can you get a big enough group to bring him here? I don't have to travel much because the big names will usually come here. Tiger Swan, Kyle Defoor, thanks to Grey Group.

I have traveled to Front Sight because the class was cheap and offset the travel some. I will travel to LMS in NV soon or later for a low light/no light class.
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Old 02-24-2012, 12:12 PM
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Thank goodness for Grey Group Training brining so many great outfits and instructors to SoCal. That along with reputable local outfits as well as individual instructors traveling to SoCal definitely gets us a lot more training for the dollar. For me to travel out of state would be for instructors, courses or range setups that I cannot get locally. For instance, Kyle Lamb, Paul Howe, Pat Rogers and long range precision rifle venues. I have and will go out of state just for such circumstances.
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Old 02-24-2012, 2:12 PM
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Usually it would be the instructor/facilities.

The three top schools that come to mind that are worth traveling to are Gunsite (AZ), Thunder Ranch (OR) and Bill Rogers (GA)
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Old 02-24-2012, 3:17 PM
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Thanks for chiming in here, fellas. I appreciate hearing about the different options, student perspectives and motivations to learn what attracts you to a certain school or instructor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kempfer View Post
I am curious, what training are you taking?
Frank Proctor 3 Day Carbine/Pistol course in Blakely, Georgia. I started following his posts when he decided to wind down his Army SF career and start his own school. I've been to several schools, all valuable experiences with different emphasis, but my buds and I wanted to take our skills to the next level. To do that, you really have to find someone who's beyond your ability, IME. He only recently started posting videos and I want to shoot at this level:



Quote:
Originally Posted by joelogic View Post
Can you get a big enough group to bring him here?
Just from my cursory investigation, the logistics are a big PITA. I once tried to setup a Daniel Horner 3-gun class and the logistics (finding a range, payment terms, navigating the CA AWB) were pretty discouraging.

Ram and 9mmEp - those are all quality courses. Visiting the GGT site makes me feel like I'm listening to a Top 20 station. All the good stuff is there in one place. I think we're actually pretty lucky to have such a wide selection available to us. I travel frequently and noticed that the training opportunities are more limited in many destinations.

Last edited by SuperSet; 02-24-2012 at 3:19 PM.. Reason: My crap spelling
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Old 04-13-2012, 1:28 PM
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Just to close out this thread, we just finished a 3-Day Rifle/Pistol/Low-Light class in Alabama with Frank Proctor and it was excellent!! It greatly exceeded my expectations and I've been through more than few courses with other training outfits. All are valuable in their own ways as you can pick up little tidbits here and there. But from this past weekend, I can confidently say that if you are a mid-level to advanced shooter who's looking to advance their Competition or Tactical skills, look him up!

http://wayofthegun.us

I also have some video from the course on my channel.
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Old 04-13-2012, 1:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSet View Post

Just to close out this thread, we just finished a 3-Day Rifle/Pistol/Low-Light class in Alabama with Frank Proctor and it was excellent!! It greatly exceeded my expectations and I've been through more than few courses with other training outfits. All are valuable in their own ways as you can pick up little tidbits here and there. But from this past weekend, I can confidently say that if you are a mid-level to advanced shooter who's looking to advance their Competition or Tactical skills, look him up!

http://wayofthegun.us
Nice. I like his experience and also his comment is exactly what I like hearing:

Quote:

I have learned a great deal from shooting in competition that has helped me become a better tactical shooter.
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Old 04-13-2012, 1:45 PM
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How did what he taught differ from what Taran Butler teaches
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Old 04-13-2012, 1:52 PM
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I have trained with Taranasaurus, an extremely accomplished, natural shooter and I consider him a friend. However, Taran is not a trainer and he admits this during his class. So, his class turns more into a coached practice session rather than a course. And he is singularly focussed on USPSA and 3-Gun. There are no Tactical elements in his class. This is not meant as criticism as everyone has their own teaching methods and focus. If you want to be a raging 3-gunner, your first stop should be Taran.

Frank is an instructor. He has teaching points, pros and cons of techniques and can relate them to how you would use them in Competition and whether you would use them the same way in the Tactical world. He naturally slips between both worlds while he's teaching and it's extremely difficult to find that combination. I'd say that Kyle Lamb would be the closest.

Last edited by SuperSet; 04-13-2012 at 4:35 PM.. Reason: Added more stuff since I write like a retard
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Old 04-13-2012, 2:28 PM
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Thanks
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Old 04-13-2012, 4:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
Nice. I like his experience and also his comment is exactly what I like hearing:
Ram - we had civilians like myself, cops and SF guys in the class. Frank talked to all the elements with specificity and authenticity. I especially liked how I could talk about stage strategy and position prep one moment and the next moment, we'd talk about strategies for negotiating vehicles and gun takeaways.

If there's enough interest, I'd like to bring him to CA so you guys can get a chance to train with him. Lotsa logistics to make that happen but if there's interest, I'll move forward.
And thx for your valuable input in this forum.
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Old 04-13-2012, 6:11 PM
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SS,

I saw the first video. Proctor uses the "Noveske" (at least that's what I call it) hold for the carbine (weakhand to the front and on the side). Did he explain the reasoning behind that type of hand placement?

What did you think of that hold vs. Taran's?
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Old 04-13-2012, 7:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSet View Post

Frank is an instructor. He has teaching points, pros and cons of techniques and can relate them to how you would use them in Competition and whether you would use them the same way in the Tactical world. He naturally slips between both worlds while he's teaching and it's extremely difficult to find that combination. I'd say that Kyle Lamb would be the closest.
Being in Kyle Lamb's company is quite a compliment. A total package like Pat McNamara a few weeks ago in Chino. Pat can shoot and he can teach plus last 14 years in the military with Delta.

Certainly, competition and tactical training are complimentary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSet View Post

Ram - we had civilians like myself, cops and SF guys in the class. Frank talked to all the elements with specificity and authenticity. I especially liked how I could talk about stage strategy and position prep one moment and the next moment, we'd talk about strategies for negotiating vehicles and gun takeaways.

If there's enough interest, I'd like to bring him to CA so you guys can get a chance to train with him. Lotsa logistics to make that happen but if there's interest, I'll move forward.

And thx for your valuable input in this forum.
I along with 3-5 others will certainly be up for Frank's Carbine/Pistol class. Need to know when (June, August or October), how much ($400-$450 for 2 days), curriculum, ammo count, location and minimum / maximum number of students.

Thanks as always SuperSet...
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Old 04-13-2012, 8:20 PM
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subscribed...
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Old 04-13-2012, 8:27 PM
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I've trained in Nevada with primarily LMS Defense. I just don't want to deal with the BS that we face in PRK. I am looking forward for some fun with LMS in June though I missed out on the shoot house class.
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Old 04-13-2012, 8:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Religious Shooter View Post
SS,

I saw the first video. Proctor uses the "Noveske" (at least that's what I call it) hold for the carbine (weakhand to the front and on the side). Did he explain the reasoning behind that type of hand placement?

What did you think of that hold vs. Taran's?
Hey man,
He runs his support hand forward on the handguard with his elbow slightly bent, instead of up higher to prevent losing peripheral vision. Also, when you have slight bend to your elbow, it cams the weapon into your shoulder. He doesn't believe that you need to pull the rifle into your shoulder. The shoulder should be rolled forward though. Taran's hold is similar although he tends to lay the rifle into his fingers, instead of holding onto the handguard.
I have some video of his teaching points but am reviewing it to make sure I don't post anything that could get anyone in trouble due to OPSEC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
I along with 3-5 others will certainly be up for Frank's Carbine/Pistol class. Need to know when (June, August or October), how much ($400-$450 for 2 days), curriculum, ammo count, location and minimum / maximum number of students.
Thanks as always SuperSet...
Ram - will advise when and if I'm able to move forward with logistics. I think he's still in the Army, prepping SF guys for deployment so he's not teaching full time yet. Also, not sure if it was mentioned on his website but he's also the SF sniper instructor and won a bunch of those sniper competitions too. We spent quite a bit of time shooting mid to long range on Day 3 (Rifle 2).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outta Control View Post
I've trained in Nevada with primarily LMS Defense. I just don't want to deal with the BS that we face in PRK. I am looking forward for some fun with LMS in June though I missed out on the shoot house class.
Those guys are great! I trained with them when I lived in NorCal when Hardesty and Todd were still working for them.
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Old 04-13-2012, 8:44 PM
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...Those guys are great! I trained with them when I lived in NorCal when Hardesty and Todd were still working for them.
Yup both are great instructors. Currently I train with both of them at each of their schools. I'm pretty close to both since they were my TO during my time at the Academy.
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Old 04-13-2012, 8:57 PM
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:19 AM
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Frank gave me the ok to post some additional class footage so you can now find it on my channel. There is way too much quality content to post so hopefully, this gives a good sense of his shooting ability and easy going instruction method.
BTW, the guy is also developing his own products and you'll see one of them in the video. That low profile sling allows him to easily collapse it for vehicle operations and allows him to go side gun (SBU) with a lower signature.
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:31 AM
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Does he do any instruction with the AK platform?
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Old 04-15-2012, 3:22 PM
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Does he do any instruction with the AK platform?
Hmm, not sure so I'll have to ask. Obviously, his team is cross-trained on the AK since you can find AKs everywhere in their primary AO. However, I asked him what his team was running and he said that they tried it all and have their choice. Virtually all of them run the AR/M4 platform with an EOTech. Some are still running AimPoints and ACOGs. They also ran the FN SCAR for a while but turned them back in after having issues with them downrange.
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Old 04-15-2012, 6:06 PM
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hey SS,

i'm very interested if you can bring him in to socal.

quick question for you: when you travel out of state, how did you handle ammo for that 3 day class? figured this was a couple of thousand of rounds of ammo in multiple calibers and air travel right? that's got to be some heavy luggage fees if you checked all that in...
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Old 04-15-2012, 6:10 PM
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Hey hayaku,
I shipped it all via UPS Ground with an ORM-D sticker. It took about a week to get there. My buddy, who took the class with me, had Frank buy his locally in AL so he just paid Frank for it come class time. I shot somewhere between 1500-1700 rifle and 1000 pistol. It was high quality shooting too, no hoser stuff.
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Old 04-15-2012, 6:19 PM
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man your vids got me pumped up!!!! great production with those vids man! they are awesome
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Old 04-15-2012, 6:50 PM
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Thx, man and appreciate the compliment!
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Old 04-15-2012, 7:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hayaku View Post
man your vids got me pumped up!!!! great production with those vids man! they are awesome
Same here. Great vids man. Now I want to take Frank's classes. It would be awesome if you can have him train us here in California.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:11 PM
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Great quality of production on your vids. Given his background, I would also love to take a class with Frank if he made it to California. If you need numbers count me in.
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Old 04-18-2012, 7:15 PM
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I just posted this AAR on ARFCOM. Sorry, it's not as detailed as some other excellent AARs on this forum but I was busy running the camera.

---

WOW!

AAR for 3-Day Carbine/Pistol Training
7 - 9 Apr 2012

It all started in this forum with this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8qH9jOZxTc

Weeks of looking for the next level class and my search was finally over, I found the guy. I sent this link to my shooting buddies and my inbox started filling up with stuff like 'I like his ability' and 'I must train with this guy!'. A competition shooter and SF soldier, both requiring an intense commitment to excel, and he was training others to excel. Count me in. So, when this 3-Day class popped up, we started making travel arrangements to Alabama.

One of the first things you'll notice about Frank is his cool, confident and easygoing manner. His vocabulary largely consists of 'man', 'dude' and 'awesome', which makes me suspicious of his Southern roots. There is some California in there somewhere. An important point because from some other courses I've taken, the instructor's demeanor sets the tone for the course. If they are open to questions, you'll be more likely to ask questions and learn from their experience. And ask we did! And this is what sets Frank apart from other instructors that I've trained under. As a USPSA Grandmaster, we could be talking about split times, target transitions and position setup one minute and in the next, we'd talk to the Tactical side of the house about CQB tactics, gun takeaways, and one arm weapon manipulations. If he knew it, he shared it with you. And one thing that really impressed me is that he was constantly learning. For example, we'd be working a standing barricade drill and my buddy asked if he'd seen a certain way to standing brace a rifle and after demonstrating it, Frank started practicing it right there and said he'd test it out to incorporate it in future training. When I saw that, I thought 'this is the reason why he excels in both the Competition and Tactical world.' He's always open, testing, and incorporating new techniques and subsequently, passing it onto his student whether they are competing at the highest levels or deploying with SF teams overseas.

If you look at his website, you'll see 2 words that stick out - ACCURACY and AGGRESSION. Every drill is built on this foundation about delivering accurate, aimed fire in a hurry. If you don't learn to do this, as Frank would say 'it'll cost you something, time or bullet holes'. The pace of the class is quick so you should anticipate spooling up at the same rate. Even though it's a Level 1 course and there will be dedicated time to discuss, practice and receive coaching on the fundamentals, I'd encourage you to take a basic handgun and rifle class and start shooting some Competition before coming to this one. You'll spend quite a bit of time shooting on the move, reloading, reading sight pictures, smoothly pressing triggers and repeating as necessary. And you'll do it quickly, with volume while measured to an accuracy standard. I felt uncomfortable at times and that was good thing.

My only regret is that he lives on the other side of the country so you fellas that live in the SE, need to look him up. You have an excellent training resource available to you at an affordable rate and you don't even have to board a plane. Trust me, take his class before he gets really BIG. I have some video from the class on my YouTube channel at the link below so check it out when you get a chance. Thx for taking the time to read.
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Old 04-18-2012, 7:23 PM
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Love the worm's eye view. Gives it a nice depth and a different perspective.
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Old 04-21-2012, 4:34 PM
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Hey SuperSet,

If you get Frank to come out to California count me in as a definite. Thanks for the info and your videos are top notch.

-H.
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Old 04-21-2012, 5:36 PM
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impressive footage. thx superset
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Old 04-22-2012, 6:35 PM
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Appreciate the nice comments, fellas!
So, I received a note back from Frank and he is definitely interested in holding a class out here for you guys. So, we're in the preliminary stages and planning something for September/October timeframe.
BTW, there are several options available for a range but I didn't find any information about Prado. I know they hold classes out there so if anyone knows anything (cost, scheduling, etc.), please drop me a PM.
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Old 04-22-2012, 6:45 PM
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AWESOMESAUCE!!!!!!
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Old 04-23-2012, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSet View Post

So, I received a note back from Frank and he is definitely interested in holding a class out here for you guys. So, we're in the preliminary stages and planning something for September/October timeframe.
Nicely done. That would be great. You have done a great service to us and Frank.

Assuming a 2-day weekend class so that you can get the most number of shooters. Also, hopefully both pistol & carbine perhaps a day for each with pistol first.

Quote:
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BTW, there are several options available for a range but I didn't find any information about Prado. I know they hold classes out there so if anyone knows anything (cost, scheduling, etc.), please drop me a PM.
CalGuns user SMGLEE sets up / organizes a lot of firearms training classes at Prado for Grey Group Training and others.

In my opinion, the best range in SoCal for such a class would be Angeles Shooting Range - Eagles Nest "B" because you get 50 yards for all the regular stuff plus you can also shoot out to 450 yards at steel with about 5 shooters at a time. Unfortunately, it's booked pretty solid by LAPD Metro on weekdays and ITTS on weekends.
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Old 04-23-2012, 1:44 PM
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Thx for the feedback, ramzar. We're in the early stages and instead of assuming, please let me know your preference (this goes for everyone):

2 Day Rifle1/Pistol - Saturday, Sunday
3 Day Rifle1/Pistol/Rifle2 - Friday, Saturday, Sunday

Be sure to check his website for the differences between Rifle1 and Rifle2.

Also, Angeles is on the list so Frank is researching. I'm thinking that Burro might be better since they allow steel on the private range and closer than 100 yds. Angeles doesn't allow it and I'm not sure about Prado.
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Old 04-23-2012, 2:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSet View Post

We're in the early stages and instead of assuming, please let me know your preference (this goes for everyone):

2 Day Rifle1/Pistol - Saturday, Sunday
3 Day Rifle1/Pistol/Rifle2 - Friday, Saturday, Sunday

Be sure to check his website for the differences between Rifle1 and Rifle2.
Either 2 or 3 day format (prefer 3 days) to start with the 1-day "Combat/Practical Pistol Operator" followed by 1-2 days of "Carbine Operator Level 1 and Level 2".

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSet View Post

Also, Angeles is on the list so Frank is researching. I'm thinking that Burro might be better since they allow steel on the private range and closer than 100 yds. Angeles doesn't allow it and I'm not sure about Prado.
Prado allows steel. Burro has the advantage of extended ranges past 50 yards when you rent the East ranges. The side advantage (or disadvantage to some) of Burro is no mobile reception and no going out to lunch.
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Last edited by ramzar; 04-23-2012 at 5:40 PM.. Reason: Include links to classes
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  #38  
Old 05-16-2012, 12:23 PM
SuperSet SuperSet is offline
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Look for something in the 'Training Class Announcements' section soon.
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  #39  
Old 05-20-2012, 8:17 PM
SuperSet SuperSet is offline
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It's go time, fellas! Please use the other thread to track from now on. I wasn't able to post in the Training Class Announcements for some reason so it's in this forum.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=574650
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  #40  
Old 05-22-2012, 11:15 AM
SuperSet SuperSet is offline
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Guys, the above referenced post is kaput so I will adjust fire accordingly. Please Email or PM me for details. Thx!

Last edited by SuperSet; 05-22-2012 at 11:16 AM.. Reason: Crap spelling
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