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  #1  
Old 01-06-2016, 4:09 AM
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Default With all the NFA talk - what can you get in CA?

I've casually looked into the trust thing in the past, but never pursued it. Knowing all the restrictions of this State, what is left to buy if you play the NFA game? All I can remember are short shotguns and a Taurus Judge with a FG.
I'm sure this is the place to ask so go ahead, help me spend some money.
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  #2  
Old 01-06-2016, 4:15 AM
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  #3  
Old 01-06-2016, 4:23 AM
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Old 01-06-2016, 4:28 AM
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AOW's like the Serbu super shorty or an AR-15 pistol with a vertical fore grip. There are also C&R SBR and SBS available, but very rare and expensive.

I don't know what else is available beyond that, but I don't think it's very much.
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  #5  
Old 01-06-2016, 7:43 AM
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1. Taurus Judge w VFG
2. S&W Governor w VFG
3. AR pistol with VFG
4. AR pistol with VFG and SIG or Shockwave Brace
5. Not sure how a semi-auto shotgun-based AOW can be delivered as it has to be processed via SSE V2 which means it must be built as a single shot bolt or break action gun? Possible but not easy, simple or cheap, who would build one from scratch as a single shot?
6. Not sure how a pump action shotgun-based AOW can be delivered as it has to be processed via SSE V2 which means it must be built as a single shot bolt or break action gun? Probably best to speak with Baboosh or another California-based FFL07/SOT02, maybe there is an exemption because it is not a semi-auto?
7. A break action single shot shotgun-based AOW would be simple
8. Briefcase gun would be possible if it were conceived and engineered in the right way
9. As MXRider mentions, C&R SBS and SBR are possible but good luck finding one, I've been looking for three years and have seen exactly one, a beater Remington 870 SBS that came from the Monterey County Sheriff's office and went for, I think it was $2,500.00 Cannot convert a C&R of either for NFA status, it must exist and already be NFA registered. C&R generally means older than 50 years and hardly anyone would have spent $200.00 to NFA register a $150.00 shotgun in the early 60s.

No pen guns allowed, they exist but for some obscure reason, we cannot own them in California. I think there are some flashlight guns too, but not sure if we could own those here?
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  #6  
Old 01-06-2016, 7:46 AM
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I was curios about this as well. But from the lists on here so far doesn't sound like there is to much worth the hassle of obtaining. mostly regular stuff in other free states...
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Old 01-06-2016, 9:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capybara View Post
8. Briefcase gun would be possible if it were conceived and engineered in the right way
You are not talking about the HK MP5K FBI Briefcase gun, are you?

I think that would fall under California Penal Code 16590. As used in this part, "generally prohibited weapon" means any of the following:

(f) A camouflaging firearm container, as prohibited by Section24310.
(k) A firearm that is not immediately recognizable as a firearm,as prohibited by Section 24510.

Plus I don't know how easy it is to find an Atlantic Arms AA-89K Pistol That was SSE here in Cali, because of how pricey these things were and how close they came out to the end of SSE. You need to register the firearm as an AOW and that's were NFA comes in.

Trust me, I would blow $2k on a Pistol+$2k on a Briefcase+ = just to play secret agent. no matter how hard it is to aim and reload.

I mean you can still own the Briefcase(does not need to be registered) and run an air-soft MP5K in there, but I think there are better ways to blow your money.


If you weren't talking about that Capybara...Mybad, I just cant think of a way a briefcase gun wouldn't violate CA law.

Another one I looked into was getting a "Virgin" M203 Receiver
This is a 40mm Receiver that has never had a 40mm Barrel attached to it
So it Transfers as an AOW and not a DD.
What can you do with it you ask? not much.
I guess you could look at it all day and dream how cool it would be to fire 40mm (Chalk)training rounds out of.......OH WAIT! The ATF deemed training rounds as "dangerous explosive/low explosive"
So even if you won the lottery on getting approved to own a DD in CALI,
Register it with the ATF, you couldn't Shoot SH*T! unless you like smoke grenades.
Sorry that was pent up for awhile

So it's pretty much leave it a "virgin" receiver or find a 37mm barrel to shoot fireworks, more smoke grenades, and flairs out of it.
The only problem is, you have a better chance of Hillary being Pro-gun than finding one.

Just wanted to tell you, That was an option
Price of an LMT M203 barrel mount $1300
The rail mounted version $1700
the colt versions I believe go for a little more and are hard to find.

Like everybody is saying, not much.
AOW *Example*Taurus judge with VFG(to bypass the SSE crap)
Serbu Shorty
AR/AK Pistols with VFG*

SBR and SBS that fall under C&R,( which are hard to find and beat to crap when you find them)
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Last edited by matt_b; 01-06-2016 at 9:50 AM.. Reason: forgot to add the price of a LMT M203 Receiver
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  #8  
Old 01-06-2016, 11:09 AM
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Still worth having a trust with holdings out of state, especially if you have friends and family.
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  #9  
Old 01-06-2016, 11:25 AM
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I have to say, generally AOWs are novelty guns. I don't regret buying mine at all (Thanks EBR Works!), but it was huge hassle, I had to get a trust, then wait 8 months for my tax stamp. I shoot it probably half a dozen times a year, it is great fun for my brother and other shooting friends to take a few shots at some watermelons 20' away. It's quite a handful with 3" magnum 00 Buck or slugs and I like guns that have stupid recoil ;-) I truly bought mine because I could, not because I really needed or wanted it. To those contemplating an AOW, get one if you are stubborn or crazy but to most shooters, bad value ratio.

Matt b, I have seen other briefcase and flashlight guns that were single shot, have not seen the HK clone one, although that sounds uber cool and totally impractical. Nothing wrong with that, I like stupid, impractical guns, they are fun, if you can afford them. I thought a flashlight gun could be cool too, although not sure if a talented FFL007/02 could find a way to actually legally deliver one. I know Baboosh is doing the Taurus Judges and S&W Governors, those would be what would appeal to me the most at this point. Great rattlesnake guns. But by the time you are done, with the gun, conversion, tqax stamp. DROS, etc. you are at almost a grand for a .410/.45LC pistol, expensive toys. It is cool to have guns that hardly anyone in the state has, but when I escape California, then it will be ho-hum, who cares in a free state
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  #10  
Old 01-06-2016, 12:25 PM
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A few years ago at an auction, they had an Ithaca Auto Burglar Special. It's a PGO SxS 20ga with 12" barrels. They made about 4000 of them. Super rare are the 28ga and .410 bores, only 20 of those were made.
The one I saw went for $7000. They're AOWs, so $5 stamp, but with that cost I don't think $195 is a deal breaker.
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  #11  
Old 01-06-2016, 1:45 PM
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Hopefully Baboosh will pop in and post some pictures.
I'm tempted to get a Judge or Governor " just because".
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Old 01-06-2016, 2:09 PM
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Isn't there talk of a hearing protection act to federally delist supressors as just firearm status, thus requiring a DROS and BG check, no more? (for us 10 day wait)

What happened to that?
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Old 01-06-2016, 2:27 PM
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It's a bill introduced in the House of Representatives. It needs to go through the standard process. Schoolhouse Rock explained it all about 30 years ago.
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Old 01-06-2016, 3:20 PM
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Not sure anyone has already mentioned it, but with a valid FFL01 you can buy any off-roster handgun.
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  #15  
Old 01-06-2016, 3:34 PM
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FFL01 is an annual $250 fee, isn't it?

as for the house bill, of course it needs to go through the standard process. The question is, does it affect us in California if it passes?
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  #16  
Old 01-06-2016, 3:48 PM
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No auto seers with Bullet buttons? =D
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  #17  
Old 01-06-2016, 3:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
Isn't there talk of a hearing protection act to federally delist supressors as just firearm status, thus requiring a DROS and BG check, no more? (for us 10 day wait)

What happened to that?
It's still in congress, probably won't happen. Even if it does, it won't apply to California. Suppressors are illegal in the state, so even taking them out of the NFA would still make them illegal under California state law.


Necessary penal code

Quote:
PENAL CODE
SECTION 33410-33415



33410. Any person, firm, or corporation who within this state
possesses a silencer is guilty of a felony and upon conviction
thereof shall be punished by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h)
of Section 1170 or by a fine not to exceed ten thousand dollars
($10,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.



33415. Section 33410 shall not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
(a) The sale to, purchase by, or possession of silencers by
agencies listed in Section 830.1, or the military or naval forces of
this state or of the United States, for use in the discharge of their
official duties.
(b) The possession of silencers by regular, salaried, full-time
peace officers who are employed by an agency listed in Section 830.1,
or by the military or naval forces of this state or of the United
States, when on duty and when the use of silencers is authorized by
the agency and is within the course and scope of their duties.
(c) The manufacture, possession, transportation, or sale or other
transfer of silencers to an entity described in subdivision (a) by
dealers or manufacturers registered under Chapter 53 (commencing with
Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code and the
regulations issued pursuant thereto.
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Old 01-06-2016, 4:04 PM
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I wouldn't mind a judge. A trust shouldn't be necessary any more after Obama's EO, correct?

do you have to leave the VFG on all the time? I assume you as once it is removed it becomes a SBS.
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Old 01-06-2016, 4:22 PM
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I Know its pointless here in cali but how many did sign up to fight the noise.

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Old 01-06-2016, 9:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal Gunner View Post
I've casually looked into the trust thing in the past, but never pursued it. Knowing all the restrictions of this State, what is left to buy if you play the NFA game? All I can remember are short shotguns and a Taurus Judge with a FG.
I'm sure this is the place to ask so go ahead, help me spend some money.
AOW, C&R SBR, and C&R SBS.
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Old 01-06-2016, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSLapua View Post
I wouldn't mind a judge. A trust shouldn't be necessary any more after Obama's EO, correct?

do you have to leave the VFG on all the time? I assume you as once it is removed it becomes a SBS.
Basically yes you have to keep it on all the time.
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Old 01-06-2016, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXRider View Post
AOW's like the Serbu super shorty or an AR-15 pistol with a vertical fore grip. There are also C&R SBR and SBS available, but very rare and expensive.

I don't know what else is available beyond that, but I don't think it's very much.
Can't do a new Serbu or Remington MCS etc anymore as they would need to be DROS'd as a SSE.
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  #23  
Old 01-06-2016, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_b View Post
Another one I looked into was getting a "Virgin" M203 Receiver
This is a 40mm Receiver that has never had a 40mm Barrel attached to it
So it Transfers as an AOW and not a DD.
What can you do with it you ask? not much.
I guess you could look at it all day and dream how cool it would be to fire 40mm (Chalk)training rounds out of.......OH WAIT! The ATF deemed training rounds as "dangerous explosive/low explosive"
So even if you won the lottery on getting approved to own a DD in CALI,
Register it with the ATF, you couldn't Shoot SH*T! unless you like smoke grenades.
Sorry that was pent up for awhile
There's no "winning the lottery" when it comes to getting a CA DD permit. It's a SHALL ISSUE permit but, it comes with conditions like agreeing not to use anything on the permit in CA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph1ree View Post
No auto seers with Bullet buttons? =D
Here's the kicker. A select fire or full auto gun doesn't need one. It's not a "SEMI AUTO" so, it's not an AW under CA law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GSLapua View Post
I wouldn't mind a judge. A trust shouldn't be necessary any more after Obama's EO, correct?

do you have to leave the VFG on all the time? I assume you as once it is removed it becomes a SBS.
Even when it has a VFG on it, it is a SBS under CA law. However, because it is a NFA registered AOW, it is an allowed exception to the SBS law. If you don't ant a VFG, you could find someone who could remove the rifling and make it a smoothbore pistol. That would qualify as a NFA AOW too. It's just more expensive and permanently alters the firearm.
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Old 01-07-2016, 8:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_b View Post
Trust me, I would blow $2k on a Pistol+$2k on a Briefcase+ = just to play secret agent. no matter how hard it is to aim and reload.

I mean you can still own the Briefcase(does not need to be registered) and run an air-soft MP5K in there, but I think there are better ways to blow your money.
There used to be one for MACs. If you could manage to find one you could probably get it to work with a Masterpiece Arms. A lot less than 2 grand.
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Old 01-07-2016, 9:21 PM
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So if I want to add a VFG on my 10.3" mk18 pistol I have to apply for a NFA and pay the $200 tax stamp?
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Old 01-07-2016, 9:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djflash View Post
Can't do a new Serbu or Remington MCS etc anymore as they would need to be DROS'd as a SSE.
That's a bummer. They are horribly impractical, but still very cool.
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Old 01-07-2016, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDigitalPicasso View Post
So if I want to add a VFG on my 10.3" mk18 pistol I have to apply for a NFA and pay the $200 tax stamp?
In order to legally attach a vertical forward grip onto a pistol, you will need to submit a Form 1 (ATF 5320.1), to make an AOW, with a $200 fee to the BATFE NFA Branch.

Once you are approved, you can then legally attach the vertical forward grip to the pistol listed on the approved Form 1.
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Old 01-07-2016, 11:19 PM
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Isn't there a certain length of pistol where you can put a vertical fore grip without a stamp?
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Old 01-08-2016, 3:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXRider View Post
Isn't there a certain length of pistol where you can put a vertical fore grip without a stamp?
Under Federal laws/regulations...

A firearm with a less than 16" rifled barrel and an overall length of less than 26" and no shoulder stock = Title 1 Handgun

A firearm with a less than 16" rifled barrel and an overall length of greater than 26" and no shoulder stock = Title 1 Other

A Title 1 Handgun can legally have an angled forward grip and/or a horizontal forward grip attached to it.
A Title 1 Handgun can not legally have a vertical forward grip attached to it, unless it is made into a Title 2 AOW.

A Title 1 Other can legally have an angled forward grip, horizontal forward grip, and/or vertical forward grip attached to it.
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Old 01-08-2016, 4:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
In order to legally attach a vertical forward grip onto a pistol, you will need to submit a Form 1 (ATF 5320.1), to make an AOW, with a $200 fee to the BATFE NFA Branch.

Once you are approved, you can then legally attach the vertical forward grip to the pistol listed on the approved Form 1.
I really want to do this and turn my pistol into an AOW. In regards to the NFA trust, do I have to get a lawyer to do this or is it something I can set up my self?
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  #31  
Old 01-08-2016, 5:53 AM
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You can do it yourself, several Calgunners have done this already.
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  #32  
Old 01-08-2016, 5:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDigitalPicasso View Post
I really want to do this and turn my pistol into an AOW. In regards to the NFA trust, do I have to get a lawyer to do this or is it something I can set up my self?
New rules no longer need a trust for NFA items, only CLEO notification.
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Old 01-08-2016, 6:54 AM
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It is funny in this state where we are taxed on everything, the 2 taxes that I'm begging to pay for (SBR & suppressor tax stamps) we aren't allowed.
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Old 01-08-2016, 3:53 PM
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Default AOW - Witness Protection

I submitted and received an approved form 1 for a 870 Witness Protection shotgun (12.5" Barrel / 24" OAL).

Purchase 870 virgin receiver
submit form 1
get approval
cut down barrel to 12.5"
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Old 01-08-2016, 3:57 PM
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Various remington and mossberg AOWs

http://paladinarmory.com/newpage3.htm
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Old 01-08-2016, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by NiteQwill View Post
New rules no longer need a trust for NFA items, only CLEO notification.
When does this go into effect?
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  #37  
Old 01-08-2016, 4:27 PM
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July.

We've all been able to purchase AOWs via NFA trusts for a while...
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  #38  
Old 01-08-2016, 9:25 PM
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Is there a thread on setting up a trust, pros and cons, etc?
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  #39  
Old 01-08-2016, 9:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Capybara View Post
1. Taurus Judge w VFG
2. S&W Governor w VFG
3. AR pistol with VFG
4. AR pistol with VFG and SIG or Shockwave Brace
5. Not sure how a semi-auto shotgun-based AOW can be delivered as it has to be processed via SSE V2 which means it must be built as a single shot bolt or break action gun? Possible but not easy, simple or cheap, who would build one from scratch as a single shot?
6. Not sure how a pump action shotgun-based AOW can be delivered as it has to be processed via SSE V2 which means it must be built as a single shot bolt or break action gun? Probably best to speak with Baboosh or another California-based FFL07/SOT02, maybe there is an exemption because it is not a semi-auto?
7. A break action single shot shotgun-based AOW would be simple
AOW fall under neither handgun nor AW statutes. They are AOW, so SSE-2 would not be needed insofar as single shot break open.
They do need to be manufactured as AOW, so i that respect, they are similar to SSE-2, but they do not need to be break-action single shot.

OC Armory was doing short-barreled VFG + PG AOWs based on the Mossberg 500 design a couple of years ago, as well as the Judge.
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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  #40  
Old 01-08-2016, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
AOW fall under neither handgun nor AW statutes. They are AOW, so SSE-2 would not be needed insofar as single shot break open.
They do need to be manufactured as AOW, so i that respect, they are similar to SSE-2, but they do not need to be break-action single shot.

OC Armory was doing short-barreled VFG + PG AOWs based on the Mossberg 500 design a couple of years ago, as well as the Judge.
AOW are considered "handguns" under CA laws.
Because a firearm with a barrel length of less than 16" is considered a "handgun". [PC 16530(a)]
Since they are "handguns", they need to comply with CA unsafe handgun laws.

AOW are not exempt from CA assault weapons laws, so they need to be configured to comply with them.

CA FFL dealers were transferring Serbu Super Shorty AOW / Remington M870MCS AOW / Safety Harbor KEG-12 AOW under the SSE and Taurus Judge AOW under the SAE.
For the Serbu Super Shorty AOW & Remington M870MCS AOW & Safety Harbor KEG-12 AOW; they would insert a wooden dowl into the magazine tube, which prevented cartridges from being loaded, thus making it single-shot.
Some CA FFL dealers will still transfer them using the SSE2, because they were never semi-auto and, it can be argued, that slide-action is a type of "bolt-action".



Penal Code 16640
(a) As used in this part, "handgun" means any pistol, revolver, or firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

Penal Code 16530
(a) As used in this part, the terms "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person," "pistol," and "revolver" apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel
less than 16 inches in length.
(b) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person," "pistol," or "revolver" from also being found to be a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled shotgun.
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Last edited by Quiet; 01-08-2016 at 10:45 PM..
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