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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 01-31-2012, 10:59 AM
Chriso83 Chriso83 is offline
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Default Full auto bolt carrier in CA, legal/illegal?

Hello,
I did a search and was not able to find an answer so I am hoping this is the right forum.

I recently purchased a AR15 upper receiver rifle kit that came with a full auto bolt carrier.

A friend checked with CADOJ who said that the full auto bolt carrier is not legal in CA?

Not assuming that CADOJ always gets it right, Is this true that the full auto bolt carrier is illegal in CA?

Another friend, who has more experience in these issues, said the full auto bolt carrier is not a big deal until you have all the other parts assembled to make it a full auto rifle. Is that correct? I am hesitant to believe him.

Thanks
ChrisO
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  #2  
Old 01-31-2012, 11:02 AM
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its ok. some people prefer the f/a bolts, i could care less whats in mine.
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  #3  
Old 01-31-2012, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriso83 View Post
Hello,
I did a search and was not able to find an answer so I am hoping this is the right forum.

I recently purchased a AR15 upper receiver rifle kit that came with a full auto bolt carrier.

A friend checked with CADOJ who said that the full auto bolt carrier is not legal in CA?

Not assuming that CADOJ always gets it right, Is this true that the full auto bolt carrier is illegal in CA?

Another friend, who has more experience in these issues, said the full auto bolt carrier is not a big deal until you have all the other parts assembled to make it a full auto rifle. Is that correct? I am hesitant to believe him.

Thanks
ChrisO
It's completely fine to have a FA bolt carrier in your bullet button of featureless rifle.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:07 AM
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Its Legal. GTG
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jamesob View Post
its ok. some people prefer the f/a bolts, i could care less whats in mine.
*Couldn't care less. Sorry thats my pet peeve haha
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  #6  
Old 01-31-2012, 11:31 AM
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*Couldn't care less. Sorry thats my pet peeve haha
Sounds like you could care less.
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  #7  
Old 01-31-2012, 11:39 AM
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all aks built from kits have the autosear trip on the bolt carrier. i have heard of some timid souls grinding them off, even in free states, but most don't bother.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Kauf View Post
*Couldn't care less. Sorry thats my pet peeve haha
I liked the way Thomas as Monte Walsh phrased it. See my sig too.

"You can't have no idea how little I care".
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  #9  
Old 01-31-2012, 12:06 PM
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Its illegal so u should just send it to me
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Old 01-31-2012, 12:06 PM
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jk ure g2g
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  #11  
Old 01-31-2012, 12:54 PM
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The bolt carrier is not really a F/A only part. A gun can be FA without such a carrier, and the FA carrier does not determine FA status.

CA DOJ has allowed a decade or so more of commercial sales of various guns having such carriers.

A huge number of LEO reg'd AWs which are not FA guns have also been reg'd by the DOJ.
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Old 01-31-2012, 2:01 PM
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12200. The term "machinegun" as used in this chapter means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can readily be restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. The term also includes any weapon deemed by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms as readily convertible to a machinegun under Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code.
A full auto bolt isn't designed to convert a semi-auto gun to a full auto gun(much less solely). It both a semi-auto piece and a full auto piece. It just has no additional function in a semi-auto piece. To really get into trouble you would need all of the rest of the parts and modifications needed to convert a gun to full auto in your possession. At which point you've already earned a trip to club fed much less the state violation.

Could a DA charge you? Sure you can get charged for anything, but they shouldn't win, especially when manufacturers sell guns with full auto bolts installed in semi-auto.
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Old 01-31-2012, 2:12 PM
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Originally Posted by drifter001 View Post
Its illegal so u should just send it to me
Man you had me going there! And to think I was on my way out to the mail box with it wrapped in a bright red bow.

Seriously, thanks everyone for the info.

CO
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  #14  
Old 01-31-2012, 3:41 PM
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Not claiming to know the answer to the OP question, but this article over at AR15.com seems to say otherwise. Is the article flat out wrong?

AR-15 Vs. M16 Parts
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  #15  
Old 01-31-2012, 3:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatstanfurd View Post
Not claiming to know the answer to the OP question, but this article over at AR15.com seems to say otherwise. Is the article flat out wrong?

AR-15 Vs. M16 Parts
I haven't read that posting there yet. But I've seen a reprint of a letter from BATFE, maybe on ARFCOM too, that stated that a M16 BCG by itself was legal in a S/A AR pattern rifle.
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  #16  
Old 01-31-2012, 4:00 PM
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Originally Posted by beatstanfurd View Post
Not claiming to know the answer to the OP question, but this article over at AR15.com seems to say otherwise. Is the article flat out wrong?

AR-15 Vs. M16 Parts
That's not what it says.
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  #17  
Old 01-31-2012, 4:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Flopper View Post
That's not what it says.
Uh...yeah it does.

Quote:
Conclusion
As mentioned previously, having M16 parts in you AR does not mean that it will be capable of automatic fire, but it does mean that you could be in violation of the law. The penalties are harsh, and definitely not worth the risks. Check those rifles, and replace any parts that don't belong. Keep in mind that some parts like the bolt carrier, can appear to be M16 and yet actually be legal AR-15 parts... stay legal, and most importantly, stay safe!
Even though it's not illegal that article says you could be...
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  #18  
Old 01-31-2012, 4:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatstanfurd View Post
Not claiming to know the answer to the OP question, but this article over at AR15.com seems to say otherwise. Is the article flat out wrong?

AR-15 Vs. M16 Parts
Yes. It is incorrect. I have a copy of the BATFE letter that staes that a M16 bolt carrier is not illegal, but only a combination of parts including the bolt carriercould be construed as illegal.
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  #19  
Old 01-31-2012, 5:40 PM
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Yes. It is incorrect. I have a copy of the BATFE letter that staes that a M16 bolt carrier is not illegal, but only a combination of parts including the bolt carriercould be construed as illegal.
Can we get a copy of the letter posted?
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Old 01-31-2012, 6:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatstanfurd View Post
Can we get a copy of the letter posted?
I believe this is the droid you're looking for;

Quote:
It is not unlawful to utilize a M16 machinegun bolt carrier in a semiautomatic AR15 type rifle.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/...6%20Letter.pdf
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  #21  
Old 01-31-2012, 6:25 PM
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I believe this is the droid you're looking for;



http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/...6%20Letter.pdf
Thank you
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  #22  
Old 01-31-2012, 7:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriso83 View Post
Hello,
I did a search and was not able to find an answer so I am hoping this is the right forum.

I recently purchased a AR15 upper receiver rifle kit that came with a full auto bolt carrier.

A friend checked with CADOJ who said that the full auto bolt carrier is not legal in CA?

Not assuming that CADOJ always gets it right, Is this true that the full auto bolt carrier is illegal in CA?

Another friend, who has more experience in these issues, said the full auto bolt carrier is not a big deal until you have all the other parts assembled to make it a full auto rifle. Is that correct? I am hesitant to believe him.

Thanks
ChrisO
I will trade you a brand new Semi-Auto Armalite carrier if it bothers you. I actually need FA ones for my machine gun.
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Old 01-31-2012, 7:26 PM
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Was it for a DIAS? I have read possession of one is enough to get you in the got seat.

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Old 01-31-2012, 7:34 PM
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EDIT: I probably don't know what I'm talking about (see quote of this post below).

For perspective, lots of people on this forum own rifles or uppers by BCM, which generally include heavy "full-auto" bolt carriers. BCM has sold thousands of these things in California. They'd catch hell from the State and Feds if these things were illegal.

See this page on BCM's web store.
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Old 01-31-2012, 8:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreaded Claymore View Post
"Full-auto bolt carrier" merely describes a bolt carrier that is heavy. A rifle that can actually fire full-auto or burst needs a heavier bolt carrier to bring the rate of fire down to a more managable level and to prevent the inside of the gun from getting too beat up.

The design of a "full-auto" bolt carrier actually doesn't play any part in making the rifle fire full-auto. Accordingly it's not a "machine gun part" legally.

For perspective, lots of people on this forum own rifles or uppers by BCM, which generally include heavy "full-auto" bolt carriers. BCM has sold thousands of these things in California. They'd catch hell from the State and Feds if these things were illegal.

See this page on BCM's web store.
WRONG, try again. You must not know how the system works.
When the safety is put in the auto position the discontector no longer causes the hammer to be caught.
The auto sear catches the other hook on the auto hammer.
As the FA BCG travels forward the part of it that's ground away on a SA BCG trips the auto sear and releases the hammer.

That's a simplified version of what happens.
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Old 01-31-2012, 8:16 PM
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Legal question from the BATF letter ^^^

If the AR15 will only fire one round per trigger pull, it is not a machine gun. Regardless of the origin of the parts?

Hypo: High shelf lower (semi only) with full M16 FCG and BCG except for the auto sear, will only operate as a semi auto and is legally not a machine gun.

Meaning all dual use FA/SA parts are legal?
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Old 01-31-2012, 8:26 PM
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I just read an article in a magazine that stated some people use the Heavier FA BCG in a Semi to dampen the recoil of the bolt.

They mentioned it was a common practice in some of the higher end models.
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Old 01-31-2012, 8:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjf View Post
Legal question from the BATF letter ^^^

If the AR15 will only fire one round per trigger pull, it is not a machine gun. Regardless of the origin of the parts?

Hypo: High shelf lower (semi only) with full M16 FCG and BCG except for the auto sear, will only operate as a semi auto and is legally not a machine gun.

Meaning all dual use FA/SA parts are legal?
In a word NO.....

I would use a carrier only....no other fire control parts from the M-16...

You would be headed for a major headache if you did...
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Kauf View Post
*Couldn't care less. Sorry thats my pet peeve haha
I could care less, but I don't.
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Old 02-01-2012, 7:55 AM
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The "full auto" bolt carrier is what the rifles were originally designed to use. They are technically the correct part.

In the 90's to try and get some heat off them, AR manufactures created and started using a "semi auto" bold carrier. It was being claimed that it was just a matter of minutes and a couple hand tools to make a semi auto AR into a full auto. The "semi auto" carrier was part of their "answer" to this problem.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:44 AM
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well... i actually know someone who was prosecuted back in the 90's for possession of M16 fire control parts. it wasn't in a gun, it was in his pocket. just bad luck i guess, he was stopped for something and patted down when he had the parts on him. maybe there is a legal difference between having an M16 hammer versus an M16 bolt carrier, but makes you think. since all you have to do is ground down a little metal, i'd rather be on the safe side just in case.
Interesting story.

Could you please provide more details? Exactly which M16 fire control parts did he have in his pocket? Was he in possession of an AR pattern rifle at the time, etc.

Simple possession of an M16 sear, hammer and trigger isn't a crime if I don't possess/own a rifle to put them in. (Yes - I understand what constructive possession is)
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Old 02-01-2012, 1:47 PM
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I noticed at the gun show (OC) this weekend a lot of F/A capable uppers. Didn't see anybody getting arrested.
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Old 02-01-2012, 1:52 PM
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Simple possession of an M16 sear, hammer and trigger isn't a crime if I don't possess/own a rifle to put them in. (Yes - I understand what constructive possession is)
See (old PC) 12200PC et seq - the CP definition kinda includes possession of what might be regarded as exclusively MG parts as also being a MG itself.
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Old 02-01-2012, 2:09 PM
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See (old PC) 12200PC et seq - the CP definition kinda includes possession of what might be regarded as exclusively MG parts as also being a MG itself.
Yep, there's a difference between Fed law and Ca State law.
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Old 02-01-2012, 3:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flopper View Post
That's not what it says.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1BigPea View Post
Uh...yeah it does.

Even though it's not illegal that article says you could be...


Quote:
Keep in mind that some parts like the bolt carrier, can appear to be M16 and yet actually be legal AR-15 parts
You realize that's in your own post, don't you?

No apology necessary.
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Old 02-01-2012, 5:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjf View Post
Legal question from the BATF letter ^^^

If the AR15 will only fire one round per trigger pull, it is not a machine gun. Regardless of the origin of the parts?

Hypo: High shelf lower (semi only) with full M16 FCG and BCG except for the auto sear, will only operate as a semi auto and is legally not a machine gun.

Meaning all dual use FA/SA parts are legal?
I've seen a lot of AR's (usually with after-market triggers) that will double or triple ocassionally. If none of the parts are M16 FCG, they had a malfunction. If any of the parts are M16 FCG, it's now a machine gun.
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Old 02-01-2012, 9:18 PM
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I've seen a lot of AR's (usually with after-market triggers) that will double or triple ocassionally. If none of the parts are M16 FCG, they had a malfunction. If any of the parts are M16 FCG, it's now a machine gun.
A distinction without a difference.

A malf'ing AR can be regarded as an MG esp if you tolerate it and don't remedy it immediately.

If you have doubling, disassemble the gun, get rid of the problem FCG parts and maybe firing pin too (overlong?).

IMMEDIATELY.

THERE IS NO OTHER CORRECT ANSWER.

A certain Mr. Olofson didn't observe the above, and knowingly continued to possess & sold such a malfunctioning gun, and he is now in Fed prison.

Remember that both Fed law and entirely separate CA law apply to MG status.
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  #38  
Old 02-01-2012, 10:48 PM
rjf rjf is offline
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The atf letter exhibited previously, stated that dual use M16 parts are not prohibited. That would mean only the auto sear assembly is a single use Full Auto part.

The OLL receivers are made high shelf which would require machine work to fit the full auto sear and drill the 3rd hole to pin it in.

An OLL receiver with M16 parts and no auto sear is simply a semi auto firearm that fires one round with a single trigger pull.

Any semi auto firearm in poor or worn condition, or improperly lubricated, that fires more than one round with a single trigger pull is a problem and needs to be remedied immediately.

I understand CYA, but where am I wrong?
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  #39  
Old 02-01-2012, 11:09 PM
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Sgt Raven Sgt Raven is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjf View Post
The atf letter exhibited previously, stated that dual use M16 parts are not prohibited. That would mean only the auto sear assembly is a single use Full Auto part.

The OLL receivers are made high shelf which would require machine work to fit the full auto sear and drill the 3rd hole to pin it in.

An OLL receiver with M16 parts and no auto sear is simply a semi auto firearm that fires one round with a single trigger pull.

Any semi auto firearm in poor or worn condition, or improperly lubricated, that fires more than one round with a single trigger pull is a problem and needs to be remedied immediately.

I understand CYA, but where am I wrong?
1. Not OLLs are 'high shelf'.
2. I don't remember if a 'high shelf' lower will work with a 'lightening link'.
3. a 'low shelf' OLL + M16 FCG + DIAS = MG.
4. Since all you need to add is a DIAS or Lightening Link once you have the rest of the M16 FCG minus the auto sear, see (5.)
5. IIRC BATFE now considers M16 trigger-hammer-safety in a AR-15 a MG.
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  #40  
Old 02-02-2012, 12:17 AM
SWalt SWalt is offline
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
A distinction without a difference.

A malf'ing AR can be regarded as an MG esp if you tolerate it and don't remedy it immediately.

If you have doubling, disassemble the gun, get rid of the problem FCG parts and maybe firing pin too (overlong?).

IMMEDIATELY.

THERE IS NO OTHER CORRECT ANSWER.

A certain Mr. Olofson didn't observe the above, and knowingly continued to possess & sold such a malfunctioning gun, and he is now in Fed prison.

Remember that both Fed law and entirely separate CA law apply to MG status.
And here ya go.....heres a link....

http://youtu.be/M4qnH-_in0s
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