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  #1  
Old 03-19-2007, 5:17 PM
BlueOvalBruin BlueOvalBruin is offline
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Default Question about transporting ammo in car

Since I don't have a CCW, I need to keep my pistol in a locked case during transport. My understanding of cali law is that the ammo does not have to be in a locked case and should not be in the same case as the gun. I normally just keep the ammo in its factory box and just take the box to the range; then load the mags at the range. Sometimes I don't shoot that many rounds (such as shooting during lunch break) and would rather just preload my mags at home and just transport the full mags. Would this be legal? I read the "How to own a gun and stay out of jail book" and it doesn't really touch on this issue. If the gun was not in a locked case and there were full mags nearby (but not in the gun), the gun would be considered loaded (breaks loaded gun law). But if the gun was in a locked case and there were full mags nearby (in a seperate bag from gun), would this be a violation of the law? Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 03-19-2007, 5:18 PM
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Loaded mags NOT inserted in the gun, are legal according to the letter of the law.

However, a lot of LEOs out there feel that a loaded magazine equals a loaded weapon. You shouldn't transport loaded mags if you object to getting a lot of grief and hassle over it, possibly even an arrest, if you get stopped by precisely the wrong officer.

If, however, you're somewhat of an activist and wish to push the letter of the law, then by all means. You'll get off, but you may spend legal dollars doing so.

But you really need a locking case when transporting any handgun.
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Old 03-19-2007, 5:33 PM
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Hello.
I called the local chp office about the transport laws
and the supervisor told me that basically I could either:
A: Put my unloaded gun in my trunk (locks not needed)
and ammo in the cab.
B: Locked guns in the cab (no case) and ammo in the trunk.
Yes, I can have the ammo stored in clips and mags.

"...and you'll be ok"
This might not be true somewhere like l.a or sanfran though.
Just call your local police and be 100% sure
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Old 03-19-2007, 5:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigadonk View Post
Hello.
I called the local chp office about the transport laws
and the supervisor told me that basically I could either:
A: Put my unloaded gun in my trunk (locks not needed)
and ammo in the cab.
B: Locked guns in the cab (no case) and ammo in the trunk.
Yes, I can have the ammo stored in clips and mags.

"...and you'll be ok"
This might not be true somewhere like l.a or sanfran though.
Just call your local police and be 100% sure
CHP tends to know the law a bit better than the local PD's, unfortunately.

My point isn't that it's illegal to transport the ammo in clips/mags, but that a lot of LEOs take a differing view of the matter. And even if the phone clerk knows the law, you don't know for sure that the beat officers do.

Like I say, as wrong as it is, I've been told by LEOs that loaded mag = loaded weapon. Do they need to be corrected? Absolutely. But I'm not convinced that the cost/benefit analysis is worth it to save a few minutes' loading time.
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Old 03-19-2007, 6:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grammaton76 View Post
Loaded mags NOT inserted in the gun, are legal according to the letter of the law.

However, a lot of LEOs out there feel that a loaded magazine equals a loaded weapon. You shouldn't transport loaded mags if you object to getting a lot of grief and hassle over it, possibly even an arrest, if you get stopped by precisely the wrong officer.

If, however, you're somewhat of an activist and wish to push the letter of the law, then by all means. You'll get off, but you may spend legal dollars doing so.

But you really need a locking case when transporting any handgun.
alot of officers said loaded mags are consider a weapon. so you can actually get arrested for that. i have alot of friends that are cops. just thought i spread the word.
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  #6  
Old 03-19-2007, 6:09 PM
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oh btw, if you have your gun locked in your trunk. just carry the ammo in a separate lock container in your passanger seat. that way it's safer, even if you get pull over by a police.
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Old 03-19-2007, 6:09 PM
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Here is the case that clarifies the law a bit:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Peo...ark-(1996).pdf

I put locked unloaded pistols in the trunk and loaded magazines and a key in my pocket. I'd be VERY unhappy to get into a spot where I need them and can't use them.

-Gene
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  #8  
Old 03-19-2007, 6:15 PM
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I carry my handguns with one empty magazine inserted in each pistol in a locked case, and a few loaded magazines in a seperate bag.

TO me they are just spare parts and not part of the particular said handgun. The Cop will have a helluva hard time to argue that a cased, unloaded, locked, pistol with an empty magazine is loaded because there is a magazine in the same car with unexpended cartridges. If he does, well, screw him and every cop that is stupid enough to think so while being paid by my tax dollars.

in fact in the court case above, when read carefully, the "position not ready to be fired" could just mean that the magazine is not in the gun such that a motion of pushing the magazine in the gun must be performed, as well as racking the slide in order for the gun to be in a position ready for being fired, such is the case with the CHP guidelines, which explicitly says that a loaded magazine can be in the same locked case as the handgun as long as it's not in the magazine well..

Then again, I didn't expect cops to read, sorry to be so cynical but I have EXPECTED cops to not know the firearm laws when in doubt. I have also had three different cops telling me that a folding knife with a lock constitutes a fixed blade knife, one of them being the watch commander for the UCPD, even though they call their Benchmades or S&W knives "folders". How that works for them is beyond me.

Last edited by CalNRA; 03-19-2007 at 6:24 PM..
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Old 03-19-2007, 6:46 PM
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Cops don't have easy access to case law on the side of the road. DA's are a different animal and beyond the inconvenience, a DA is all that really matters.

-Gene
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  #10  
Old 03-19-2007, 6:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
Cops don't have easy access to case law on the side of the road. DA's are a different animal and beyond the inconvenience, a DA is all that really matters.

-Gene
That's the point, today's cops are enforcing laws to the letter and beyond, and they are always eager to put the responsibility on th DA and wipe their hands clean. I guess no one is to blame but the Joe Citizen himself for not having enough money for a fancy lawyer or bribe the CLEO enough for a CCW license?

Are there good cops? damn straight. but more cops will be happy to put me in the back of a squad car for the smallest violations and feel they did something good for society, because frankly, putting me in jail is a whole lot easier than busting druggies, I don't get their hands dirty since I shower on a daily basis.

Last edited by CalNRA; 03-19-2007 at 7:13 PM..
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  #11  
Old 03-19-2007, 10:04 PM
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from http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html



I will be traveling to California and want to carry my weapon. I currently have a concealed weapon permit. How can I legally transport my weapon while driving through the state?


California law does not recognize concealed weapon permits from other states; therefore, they would not be held valid. If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.
If you have additional questions, contact the California Department of Justice at 916-227-3703.
----------------------------------------

I like the idea of at least 1 EMPTY magazine kept in unloaded pistol.
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  #12  
Old 03-19-2007, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kneedeep View Post
Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.

I like the idea of at least 1 EMPTY magazine kept in unloaded pistol.
Why would you keep an empty mag in the pistol during transport?

I like the idea of keeping a pistol in a quick access lock box (i.e. gunvault or titan gun vault) in the cab area and a loaded magazine in my pocket or another quick access lock box. Could even have the pistol locked open for even quicker loading in uncertain times.

From the law, I see this as legal but wouldn't want to risk an arrest for it.

Any opinions on this?

edit: Like in this picture with pistol unloaded and loaded mags outside of the box.


Last edited by The SoCal Gunner; 03-19-2007 at 10:55 PM..
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  #13  
Old 03-19-2007, 10:50 PM
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keep your guns in a locked gun case and the ammo in the range bag. You will have no worries my friend.
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  #14  
Old 03-19-2007, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilxboi View Post
Why would you keep an empty mag in the pistol during transport?

I like the idea of keeping a pistol in a quick access lock box (i.e. gunvault or titan gun vault) in the cab area and a loaded magazine in my pocket or another quick access lock box. Could even have the pistol locked open for even quicker loading in uncertain times.

From the law, I see this as legal but wouldn't want to risk an arrest for it.

Any opinions on this?

edit: Like in this picture with pistol unloaded and loaded mags outside of the box.

I said I keep an empty mag and I got the idea from someone else on Calguns, can't remember who. The idea is that if the cop wants to be anal and argue that the magazine is a part of the gun and thus rounds attached to the magazines are attach to the gun, then keep a whole gun unloaded and other mags as spare parts.

stupid? perhaps. but I am trying to do the best given the douche-ness of my sheriff. He made it hard for any civilian to get a CCW, not my fault. I have no record aside from a traffic ticket 5 years ago and travel at odd times of the day for trips, but since I'm not one of his buddies, no permit in sight. Thanks Sheriff Robbins for keeping our county safe by being an examplary CLEO!!!!!

http://www.scsheriff.com/

he's from San Francisco, FWIW

Last edited by CalNRA; 03-19-2007 at 11:07 PM..
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  #15  
Old 03-19-2007, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalNRA View Post
I said I keep an empty mag and I got the idea from someone else on Calguns, can't remember who. The idea is that if the cop wants to be anal and argue that the magazine is a part of the gun and thus rounds attached to the magazines are attach to the gun, then keep a whole gun unloaded and other mags as spare parts. FWIW
I see.

I totally understand. I'm a resident of Orange County now for school but came from L.A. county where sheriff Baca and Cheif Bratton are in charge and we already know they don't WANT citizens to have guns.
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Old 03-20-2007, 1:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalNRA View Post
That's the point, today's cops are enforcing laws to the letter and beyond, and they are always eager to put the responsibility on th DA and wipe their hands clean.
I agree with this slight rewording "today's cops are enforcing laws as they believe them to be to the letter and beyond..."

Much like a fisherman who's told to go catch sharks, they end up netting anything that swims and has fins, only to let someone else decide what's a legal catch.

If they run across you doing anything that they interpret as breaking a law they will hook and book, then hit the streets to look for more evil-doers.

Just curious, for our LE friends, how much training do officers really get on the law? Each year we have so many new laws hitting the books, and I know with my own firearms focus I can wade through the pc only to get confused, so how much practical understanding do our LEO really have?
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Old 03-20-2007, 3:34 AM
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Default I'f follow the DOJ advice given above...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kneedeep View Post
If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.
I wish I had a dollar for every time this question has come up.

I believe that Kneedeep nailed the answer above, by going to the CA DOJ website and reading what they say about the law. If I may summarize this, the key points are:

1. Keep the empty handgun locked in a container or the trunk.
2. You can keep the ammunition in the same container or trunk, but it can't be in the gun.

As for loaded magazines, the paragraph above only says they can't be in the "magazine well". However, if cops might hassle you for loaded magazines in general, maybe it is smart not to load them until you get to the range.
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Old 03-20-2007, 1:23 PM
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Another key point of transporting weapons and ammo - don't break any laws while you're traveling about.

You have nothing to worry about if you DON'T get pulled over for driving erratically on the wrong side of the road, with a busted taillight, missing front license plate, too-dark tint on windows, speeding, the wrong way on a one-way street, after making an illegal U-turn in a school zone, narrowly missing the crossing guard and a flock of nuns.
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Old 03-20-2007, 1:43 PM
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And not only that, but when was the last time the LEO demanded to search your car as part of a traffic stop? I've never had it happen. And unless you give him probable cause he won't. You could have a suitcase nuke in a duffle bag on your back seat and Jimmy Hoffa in your trunk, and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. Just smile, say, "Yes, sir, I'm sorry," take your ticket, and drive away.
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Old 03-20-2007, 3:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mstlaurent View Post
And not only that, but when was the last time the LEO demanded to search your car as part of a traffic stop? I've never had it happen. And unless you give him probable cause he won't. You could have a suitcase nuke in a duffle bag on your back seat and Jimmy Hoffa in your trunk, and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. Just smile, say, "Yes, sir, I'm sorry," take your ticket, and drive away.
Generally true but don't count on it. Lotsa 'pretext searches', esp in metro areas, and depends on your appearance.

I've been pulled over for just a warning, without grief - sitting on more firepower than your average South American tinpot country has (albeit legally transported). Clean new truck, short hair + nice shirt + shined shoes + Rolex + well-spoken all adds up to a bit more relaxed setting.

And as (cop) AR15Fan on ARFcom says (paraphrased a bit), "It's not illegal to drive with a dead hooker in your trunk if your car's taillights are working."
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Old 03-23-2007, 10:15 AM
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It says locked trunk of a passenger car. I have a truck with bedcover and lockable tailgate, neither of which can be opened unless unlocked. Would this pass as a "locked trunk of a passenger car?" Or no, because it is not infact a "locked trunk" in the traditional sense, and it's also technically not a "passenger car."

And is it legal to carry ammunition in the cab of a truck if there are no firearms present in the cab with the ammunition? If so, does the ammunition in cab have to be in a locked container?

ETA: Reason I ask, I just went through a firearms course and there was a discussion about this and one of the people was a Sheriff's Deputy and he said both the guns and ammo had to be in separate locked containers not and not in the same space of the vehicle.

Last edited by mgcchkn; 03-23-2007 at 10:40 AM..
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Old 03-23-2007, 4:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgcchkn View Post
It says locked trunk of a passenger car. I have a truck with bedcover and lockable tailgate, neither of which can be opened unless unlocked. Would this pass as a "locked trunk of a passenger car?" Or no, because it is not infact a "locked trunk" in the traditional sense, and it's also technically not a "passenger car."
Personal guess: this may not not be considered the same as a lockable trunk or a lockbox. Your best bet would be to check with the DOJ Firearms Div.
Quote:
And is it legal to carry ammunition in the cab of a truck if there are no firearms present in the cab with the ammunition? If so, does the ammunition in cab have to be in a locked container?
This would be legal. There is nothing that says that ammunition must be locked up. It just must be separated from the weapon, or in case of a handgun, not in the same locked space. If the weapon is considered concealable, you run afoul of 12031 (g). There is also case law that deals specifically with this as well, and that has been posted several times on this board.
Quote:
ETA: Reason I ask, I just went through a firearms course and there was a discussion about this and one of the people was a Sheriff's Deputy and he said both the guns and ammo had to be in separate locked containers not and not in the same space of the vehicle.
The Deputy is wrong. Only a concealable gun (not a long gun) must be locked separately from the ammunition. The rules for long guns under 12031 (g) are spelled out also in case law.
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Old 03-23-2007, 7:31 PM
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Thanks CSDGuy.
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Old 03-23-2007, 9:11 PM
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Quote:
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Thanks CSDGuy.
You're welcome! The rules and laws are available...
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Old 03-24-2007, 8:41 PM
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Please define locked case/container.

I put my handgun in a compartment of my soft luggage with a TSA lock on the zippers when traveling (auto with an empty mag in the well). The ammo/spare empty mags/jackass rig is in other soft luggage with TSA lock on the zippers. Both bags sit in back of the SUV. Actually the other bag is a bailout bag I have carried while car traveling ever since Loma Prieta, being caught away from home with only a suit/wingtips doesn't really work.

Does this pass or does the case need to be a hard case?

Last edited by Californio; 03-26-2007 at 9:30 AM..
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Old 03-25-2007, 9:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Californio View Post
Please define locked case/container.

I put my handgun in a compartment of my soft lugage with a TSA lock on the zippers when traveling (auto with an empty mag in the well). The ammo/spare empty mags/jackass rig is in other soft lugage with TSA lock on the zippers. Both bags sit in back of the SUV. Actually the other bag is a bailout bag I have carried while car traveling ever since Loma Prieta, being caught away from home with only a suit/wingtips doesn't really work.

Does this pass or does the case need to be a hard case?
It can be hard or soft, as long as it meets the requirements of:
Quote:
PC 12026.1 (c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.
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Old 03-25-2007, 11:28 AM
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So with handguns as long as the gun is locked in a case, the ammo can be right next to it? Is there any seperate laws for going to and coming from the range or shooting event?
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Old 03-25-2007, 3:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGarrison View Post
So with handguns as long as the gun is locked in a case, the ammo can be right next to it? Is there any seperate laws for going to and coming from the range or shooting event?
The answer to your question can be found Here. The relevant court cases should also be in a nearby thread as well.
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Old 03-25-2007, 5:00 PM
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Basically,

-Unloaded gun in locked box
-Empty or unloaded magazines in your range bag
-and keep ammo in factory box.

All separated from each other in your trunk, or if you're like me with an SUV, kept in the back with the tarp rolled out.

You'll be safe.
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Old 03-25-2007, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark3lb View Post
keep your guns in a locked gun case and the ammo in the range bag. You will have no worries my friend.
I just came back from a CCW renewal class for Nevada and was told by my instructor that Kalifornia now requires Handgun ammo to be in its own locked container, but cannot find any evidence of this.
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Old 03-26-2007, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nylo View Post
I just came back from a CCW renewal class for Nevada and was told by my instructor that Kalifornia now requires Handgun ammo to be in its own locked container, but cannot find any evidence of this.

he's wrong.
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Old 06-01-2007, 1:39 AM
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To say that your ammunition must be stored in a different container from your firearm is incorrect. Here is the text from "California Firearms Laws 2007"

Italicized text is my own

First, what defines a "loaded" firearm?
A firearm is deemed loaded when there is a live cartridge or shell in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm. A muzzle-loading firearm is deemed loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder. (Penal Code 12031(g).)

For the purposes of Penal Code section 12023 (commission or attempted commission of a felony while armed with a loaded firearm), a firearm is deemed loaded when both the firearm and the unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from the firearm are in the immediate possession of the same person.
Where may a firearm be stored in a vehicle?
Section 12025 (the part about it being an illegally concealed firearm) does not apply to or affect any of the following:
...
the firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment,
To be even more specific, let me refer you to the actual text of the law

12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.
(If that link doesn't work, go here and do a search checking the "Penal" check and searching for "12026.1")



You will notice that there is no mention of storing the firearm in a different container from the ammunition. So feel free to put your unloaded (the standard definition... no ammo in the gun) firearm in the same locked container as your loaded magazines. These two things can be loose in your trunk, or in a locked box in the passenger compartment; the glove compartment isn't considered a locked box but something like a GunVault is.

If you are going to disagree with me on this issue, please reference the appropriate statute or precedent.

Last edited by bluesharpie; 06-01-2007 at 2:47 AM..
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Old 06-01-2007, 6:47 AM
XDshooter XDshooter is offline
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Even better and I love this part about the concealed laws.

12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:
........
........
(f) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.



Forget the locked container. As long as you are carrying the firearm in a belt holster OPENLY and UNLOADED of course, there is no need for it to be in a locked container.

You could drive to the range with loaded mags in your pockets and the firearm in your holster and be legal.
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Old 06-01-2007, 10:04 AM
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The confusion over loaded magazines comes straight from the penal code:

Quote:
A firearm is deemed loaded when there is a live cartridge or shell in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm.
Note the placement of the comma after the word "magazine". Obviously, the original intent was "magazine or clip thereof attached" but since there is a comma after the word magazine, some cops interpret that as separate from "clip thereof attached" and the magazine does not have to be attached to the firearm. A cartridge in the magazine, attached or not, equals a loaded firearm. I'm not saying it's correct. I'm saying some cops will interpret it that way.
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Old 06-01-2007, 1:56 PM
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In my old appartment complex I went to go shooting once and thought like you did... I just wanted to take a few preloaded mags and come home. My pistol was in a locked case and I put it in the trunk. When I was unlocking the door I set the loaded mags on the roof of a car and looked up and saw a cop standing there looking at me. She didn't say anything and just smiled.... I didn't think anything about the legality until I had loaded mags on my car and a cop in my same field of vision. Since she didn't say anything I figure theres no problem with it.

Your mileage may vary.

-Bryan
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Old 06-01-2007, 2:40 PM
bluesharpie bluesharpie is offline
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Mudcamper wrote:
>"A firearm is deemed loaded when there is a live cartridge or shell in, or
>attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, the
>firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm."

>Note the placement of the comma after the word "magazine"....

The grammatical structure of the sentence and it's commas assume that all the parts of the firearm are integral. For example, the firing chamber is (and obviously must be) a part of the firearm. Likewise, the magazine is a part of the firearm in this sentence. If the magazine is a part of the firearm, as it is in any firearm with a fixed magazine (IE a "legalized" AR-15), then this is an important point. In this situation, the firearm may have ammunition in the (fixed) magazine without it being in the chamber. All that is needed to get into a ready-to-fire position is to draw the slide back. Some may consider this "unloaded" but this law does not.

If the magazine is not integral, then the grammar of the sentence falls apart because a magazine without the rest of a firearm isn't a "firearm".

This leaves us with two situations, though it may be hairsplitting, it helps define what they're saying:

1 - a firearm with an integral magazine that is loaded is considered a "loaded firearm" because the magazine is (permanently) attached.

2 - a firearm with a detachable magazine with the magazine in the firearm is considered a "loaded firearm" because the magazine is (temporarily) attached.

Likewise,a firearm with a detachable magazine with the magazine NOT in the firearm is not considered a "loaded firearm" because the magazine is not attached.


Therefore, a firearm with a detachable magazine is not considered "loaded" unless the loaded magazine is in the firearm.


Stated very simply: "Gun and ammo in one machine = loaded. Gun and ammo not in one machine = not loaded"

A corollary that is unimportant to our current discussion is that if you are in the process of committing a felony, a different statute applies.

Last edited by bluesharpie; 06-01-2007 at 3:02 PM..
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Old 06-01-2007, 2:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesharpie View Post
A corollary that is unimportant to our current discussion is that if you are in the process of committing a felony, a different statute applies.
Unless you are also transporting an "Assault Weapon" which you and I know isn't an "Assault Weapon" but the LEO doesn't understand that... Then you're commiting a felony in his eyes and merely possessing ammunition means you have a loaded firearm.
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Old 06-01-2007, 11:52 PM
XDshooter XDshooter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudCamper View Post
The confusion over loaded magazines comes straight from the penal code:

Note the placement of the comma after the word "magazine". Obviously, the original intent was "magazine or clip thereof attached" but since there is a comma after the word magazine, some cops interpret that as separate from "clip thereof attached" and the magazine does not have to be attached to the firearm. A cartridge in the magazine, attached or not, equals a loaded firearm. I'm not saying it's correct. I'm saying some cops will interpret it that way.
hoffmang says that the Clark appeal case determined that a cartridge in the magazine is not loaded. I conclude differently from reading through the Clark appeal as it said that section of the penal code does not relate to the incident with the shotgun and shells attached to the buttstock.

That part of the penal code implies 100% that a cartridge in or attached to the magazine constitutes a loaded firearm. The comma is irrelevant and states the same thing without it.


I sent this info to my cousin since he's an attorney, but I have yet to hear back from him.

Last edited by XDshooter; 06-02-2007 at 1:14 AM..
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Old 06-02-2007, 12:10 AM
XDshooter XDshooter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesharpie View Post
If the magazine is not integral, then the grammar of the sentence falls apart because a magazine without the rest of a firearm isn't a "firearm".

That is ONLY your opinion. The PC does not describe a firearm as you say. The term firearm in the PC is defined in the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations

It says a firearm is:

Title 18
Section 921(a)
(3) The term ``firearm'' means (A) any weapon (including a starter
gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a
projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of
any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any
destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.



So, it doesn't matter if the mag is attached or not, it's still a firearm by law.
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Old 06-02-2007, 12:50 AM
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As long as you are not a known gang member, a magazine full of ammunition that is not in the magazine well of the firearm does not equate to a loaded firearm. The case is People v. Clark and you can read it here:
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Peo...ark-(1996).pdf

It is completely legal to have an unloaded rifle slung on your back with a loaded magazine in your pocket as the rifle would be considered unloaded. An officer or DA may not understand it initially, but People v. Clark is binding precedent.

-Gene
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