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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 01-09-2012, 3:21 AM
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Default WARNING: UPDATE:: Proposition Withdrawn!!!

All,

A few minutes ago on Twitter, I was pointed to a web page at Front Sight entitled "Petition for Shall Issue Concealed Carry in California". As some of you might know, there's been quite a bit of discussion regarding the ballot initiative (no. 11-0056) that purports to make California "shall issue" for carry licenses (i999_11-0056_(concealed_firearms).pdf). I and others have explained in detail elsewhere how the initiative is possibly well-intentioned but creates some significant problems that are best avoided.

After reviewing "Dr." Piazza's letter and instructions on the web page, I highly suspect that the ballot initiative is being used to create a highly-targeted list of potential clients. What better way to build community goodwill, brand recognition, and increase the utilization of their facilities than to create this opportunity to reach thousands of gun owners and future gun owners (those having a sincere and genuine interest in their right to bear arms for self-defense, enough so to sign an initiative)?

Note, especially, this excerpt from the web page:

Quote:
We will review all petitions for correctness and forward them to the approrpiate [sic] signature-certifying agencies.
(Errors in original.)

Note, also, the below images:



If Dr. Piazza would like to engage with me on this, I'll welcome him to participate here in the open forum home of California's gun owners. However, I have little choice but to warn you of the possible side-effects of this imprudent horse-pill - it's a bad initiative and possibly nothing more than cheap marketing for Front Sight.

-Brandon
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Old 01-09-2012, 3:34 AM
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This certainly isn't going to end well.
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Old 01-09-2012, 4:07 AM
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It would be good to link to a quick explanation of how this initiative would cause problems for our rights. I remember seeing the reasoning but I don't remember which thread.
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Old 01-09-2012, 4:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OleCuss View Post
It would be good to link to a quick explanation of how this initiative would cause problems for our rights. I remember seeing the reasoning but I don't remember which thread.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=491957
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=508596
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=511560

I'm sure there are others.

See also: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=156804

-Brandon
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Old 01-09-2012, 5:33 AM
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I just got this in my inbox.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Last edited by QQQ; 01-09-2012 at 5:39 AM..
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Old 01-09-2012, 5:40 AM
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I've seen calguns advocate some pretty crazy things, things i consider anti-gun. Opposing this initiative simply because it might not pass the first time (what they call "waste of time") shows calguns' jealousy over what Front Sight can accomplish here. Will it have immediate success? Possibly, but even if it doesn't can you imagine you educational this will be in letting soccer moms know what soccer moms in other states can do to protect their families? The main problem has always been getting on the ballot and Front Sight can actually get that done. Calguns is a business that relies on court cases to get things done - i can see why they are jealous.
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Old 01-09-2012, 5:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guntrust View Post
I've seen calguns advocate some pretty crazy things, things i consider anti-gun. Opposing this initiative simply because it might not pass the first time (what they call "waste of time") shows calguns' jealousy over what Front Sight can accomplish here. Will it have immediate success? Possibly, but even if it doesn't can you imagine you educational this will be in letting soccer moms know what soccer moms in other states can do to protect their families? The main problem has always been getting on the ballot and Front Sight can actually get that done. Calguns is a business that relies on court cases to get things done - i can see why they are jealous.
Since you copied and pasted from Facebook, so shall I copy and paste my response to you there:

Quote:
David, I'd like to respond to a few of your comments:

(1) I'm not sure what you consider anti-gun. It would help me to understand what objections you have if they were articulated.

(2) The last thing we are is jealous of Front Sight or its founder.

(3) If the exercise was simply educational, why would Front Sight not make tax-deductible donations to 501(c)3 orgs (any suited to this, doesn't need to be ours, or they could start their own) and produce/promulgate educational material?

(4) Do you have some data that proves "Front Sight can actually get that done"?

(5) Calguns Foundation is a 501(c)3 non-profit that has an entirely uncompensated board of directors and whose product relies on the hard work of its dedicated volunteers.

(6) We do utilize strategic litigation to, as you very accurately stipulate, "get things done". We also employ many other means of affecting positive change and advance civil rights. Front Sight can't say that.
Now that we're past the "CGF is jealous of Front Sight" hurdle, mind refuting the linked arguments against initiative or offering some substantive argument for it?

-Brandon
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Old 01-09-2012, 5:50 AM
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Actually, I am at least happy that people are still engaging the system. So many people are totally disconnected from their government nowadays. Activists are a rare breed, and it might be best to let them try and fail, than encourage them to remain a vegetable. Sometimes we end up browbeating others right out of their rights just like those who have gotten in to power these days, except it's somewhat worse when it comes from what is portended as your own side of the argument.
I could relay my observations of another movement in which a handful of "leaders" began to form an inner sanctum of sorts, and ostracize those others who they percieved were going to do the movement more harm than good. In the end, the bitterness and divide was the worse harm. No one trusts the other, and we ended up a splintered, inneffective, band of renegades
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Old 01-09-2012, 5:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guntrust View Post
I've seen calguns advocate some pretty crazy things, things i consider anti-gun. Opposing this initiative simply because it might not pass the first time (what they call "waste of time") shows calguns' jealousy over what Front Sight can accomplish here. Will it have immediate success? Possibly, but even if it doesn't can you imagine you educational this will be in letting soccer moms know what soccer moms in other states can do to protect their families? The main problem has always been getting on the ballot and Front Sight can actually get that done. Calguns is a business that relies on court cases to get things done - i can see why they are jealous.
Did you actually read the initiative and some of the poorly thought out changes that were in it? Maybe you should, before making a judgement on Calgun's supposed "jealousy."
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  #10  
Old 01-09-2012, 6:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AyatollahGondola View Post
Actually, I am at least happy that people are still engaging the system. So many people are totally disconnected from their government nowadays. Activists are a rare breed, and it might be best to let them try and fail, than encourage them to remain a vegetable. Sometimes we end up browbeating others right out of their rights just like those who have gotten in to power these days, except it's somewhat worse when it comes from what is portended as your own side of the argument.
I could relay my observations of another movement in which a handful of "leaders" began to form an inner sanctum of sorts, and ostracize those others who they percieved were going to do the movement more harm than good. In the end, the bitterness and divide was the worse harm. No one trusts the other, and we ended up a splintered, inneffective, band of renegades
I guess it's my gift of cynicism kicking in, but this does not seem solely motivated by "activism", in fact it seems it could hurt activists. It seems like promotion of his business to me.

CGF is a group of activists, and it's comical above to see it attacked as a business in defense of Front Sight's actions here, though for trying to convince the underinformed, not necessarily a ineffective method of attack.
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Old 01-09-2012, 6:09 AM
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I saw the email and was worried about what the reaction would be. It is difficult when different entities are trying to accomplish the same thing, but are taking different approaches.

I share the fear that losing on a ballot measure could cause serious harm to the fight for our rights. What if the judges look at public opinion to assist in their ruling, rather than going by the law?

Of course there is the other possible outcome, and we win the ballot measure and the California Constitution is changed to reflect the will of the people. Won't some liberal justice just overturn it like they did the Arizona immigration law that was the will of the people?

I agree that this will not end well.
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  #12  
Old 01-09-2012, 6:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guntrust View Post
I've seen calguns advocate some pretty crazy things, things i consider anti-gun. Opposing this initiative simply because it might not pass the first time (what they call "waste of time") shows calguns' jealousy over what Front Sight can accomplish here. Will it have immediate success? Possibly, but even if it doesn't can you imagine you educational this will be in letting soccer moms know what soccer moms in other states can do to protect their families? The main problem has always been getting on the ballot and Front Sight can actually get that done. Calguns is a business that relies on court cases to get things done - i can see why they are jealous.
Dave, the only for-profit businesses I see here are Calguns.net, Inc., Frontsight Pyramid Schemes Inc and YOUR Training "Clinic" & trust law-firm. Calguns.net != CalGuns Foundation.

The CalGuns Foundation, as already stated, is a 501(c)3, the board members are NOT paid (and each of them have their own completely unrelated day jobs), the attorneys that coordinate with the CGF do a ****-load of pro-bono work and it's not because they're trying to make a name for themselves....they also make their money & reputation on their day jobs, it would be F'ing expensive if 100% of their time donated to Civil Rights in CA was actually billed for what they're worth.

Further, as requested, can you substantiate your claims that "Calguns" (assuming the CalGuns Foundation?) has supported 'anti-gun' measures or is it just another baseless ad hominem attack because they disagree with the pyramid scheme that you've bought into hook-line-sinker because they have a *nice* training facility (and yes, I've been there for a 4-day basic handgun course).

I have to ask, Dave, what do YOU stand to profit from "Dr." Piazza succeeding with yet another media-blitz for membership? I noticed quite a few Frontsight ads, links & references on your web-page.
http://bit.ly/ztXIL2
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  #13  
Old 01-09-2012, 6:53 AM
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Everyone knows that if someone else could fix California's gun laws, all those high paid, unpaid volunteers that work for free would be out of a second (or third) time consuming and thankless job....

It looks like the good Dr Pizza is just creating a mailing list...
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Old 01-09-2012, 6:54 AM
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Can CGF draft a reasonable response to Front Sight? Propose solutions rather than just pointing out problems. Put bias and animosity aside.
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Old 01-09-2012, 6:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvtolean View Post
I guess it's my gift of cynicism kicking in, but this does not seem solely motivated by "activism", in fact it seems it could hurt activists. It seems like promotion of his business to me.

CGF is a group of activists, and it's comical above to see it attacked as a business in defense of Front Sight's actions here, though for trying to convince the underinformed, not necessarily a ineffective method of attack.
I'm not going to advise people about the intent of Front Sight's effort because I don't really know. But there could be at least a little evidence of the charges included with the accusation. What I've come to dislike is the innuendo that grows legs based upon the credibility of those who make the charges in the first place.
A business getting involved in the effort is not inherently bad. And, the addition of requests to provide information to the proponent is likewise not inherently nefarious. At least there is more advertisement of the cause, even if it is not perceived as advantageous by some. I don't like how the process is used by monied interests, but that should be taken up in the legislature. Brady and their betheren are always using the process to advertise for their businesses...and yes; now I see the opposition as a business.
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Old 01-09-2012, 6:58 AM
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Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
Can CGF draft a reasonable response to Front Sight? Propose solutions rather than just pointing out problems. Put bias and animosity aside.
This!
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Old 01-09-2012, 6:59 AM
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Disclaimer: I am a Front Sight Diamond Lifetime Member.

Dr. Piazza has always stated that his motivation is the furtherance of the 2A. On the surface, that would seem to be the case here.

However, as most of us will agree, under the hood is where we run into problems with trusting the doctor.

If his intentions are legit, I would see no problem with his allowing oversight and consultation on this project with certain non-profit entities from CA. This would certainly lend a lot of authenticity to his motives and help allay the fears that most of us are experiencing.

I personally think that "An Act To Bring California Into Compliance With US Supreme Court Civil Rights Rulings" might get traction on election day. The current version? Not so much. The doctor is probably well intentioned with some personal alterior motives; that is ok. He just needs some clever individuals from CA to nudge him in the right direction. He is putting financial resources into this project, so let's figure out a way to leverage that to our mutual benefit.

.
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:01 AM
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Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post
He is putting financial resources into this project, so let's figure out a way to leverage that to our mutual benefit.

.
Exactly, instead of beating the "panic" drum somebody should be working on utilizing this resource...
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:03 AM
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Can CGF draft a reasonable response to Front Sight? Propose solutions rather than just pointing out problems. Put bias and animosity aside.
The proposal's many flaws have been discussed ad nauseam in the links I posted above. I'll try and do a line-by-line later today if I have time. Right now I'm finishing up the new and updated LTC guides, etc. for 2012.

-Brandon
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
The proposal's many flaws have been discussed ad nauseam in the links I posted above. I'll try and do a line-by-line later today if I have time. Right now I'm finishing up the new and updated LTC guides, etc. for 2012.

-Brandon

And you think Piazza is just sitting around waiting to read some threads? I'm fairly certain his "to-do" list is a little bigger than that...



On a side note, thank you for updating the LTC guides...I appreciate it.
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:09 AM
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If his intentions are legit, I would see no problem with his allowing oversight and consultation on this project with certain non-profit entities from CA. This would certainly lend a lot of authenticity to his motives and help allay the fears that most of us are experiencing.
It's too late to collaborate. The proposal's language is set; this is not a spot bill.

It's now just A Really Bad Idea (TM).

-Brandon
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:10 AM
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Guys, I know that I am no one here, and what I say won't mean a thing; BUT, we need to have this discussion in a respectful manner. The worst thing we can do is start fighting about who is trying to do what.

I am a FS member and I know the founder is out to make a buck, but he is also advancing gun ownership and training for people who might not do it otherwise.

CGF does great things and they devote a lot of time to helping us. I was talking to wildhawker at 1 AM this morning. He was posting about this event as late as 6:45. This obviously means enough to him to miss precious hours sleeping to deal with it. This is more than most of us do.

I don't know enough to decide which side is right in this debate, but I respect each of their efforts and accomplishments enough to not talk bad about either one.
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:10 AM
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And you think Piazza is just sitting around waiting to read some threads? I'm fairly certain his "to-do" list is a little bigger than that...



On a side note, thank you for updating the LTC guides...I appreciate it.
Well, I've emailed him the link. I'm sure his staff will disregard it without showing him, however I can at least say that I tried to reach out and help the flow of communication.
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:11 AM
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And you think Piazza is just sitting around waiting to read some threads? I'm fairly certain his "to-do" list is a little bigger than that...
So is mine, but I take the time because I care enough to do it. No, I don't expect anything from FS. This thread is about informing others and indicating possible issues with the scheme so that people can make their own decisions.

-Brandon
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:12 AM
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Personally, I'm happy to assume that the Frontsight attempt to put this on the ballot is based on the purest of pro-civil rights motives. No need to cast aspersions on them.

That doesn't mean that the attempt is not misguided.

As wildhawker has stated, he/CGF have looked carefully at the proposed initiative and have found that it will not be helpful - and will be harmful. The logic used in analyzing it is good and this means the initiative is a bad idea.

It's sort of like all those people taking Vitamin E supplements to prevent heart attacks. They mean well and all, the only problem is that taking Vitamin E supplements turns out to increase the risk of heart attacks. You don't have to have bad motives to be wrong.
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:12 AM
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And then there's the issue between Dr. Piazza and the NRA. They don't play well together either. Is this a pattern developing... Or just coincidence? Looks like a pattern to me
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:13 AM
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That sounds like quite a marketing project....
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:16 AM
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Consider the source and which side of lawsuits they usually are.
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locosway View Post
Well, I've emailed him the link. I'm sure his staff will disregard it without showing him, however I can at least say that I tried to reach out and help the flow of communication.

Chances are Piazza has a million things to do from the moment he wakes up to the moment he leaves the office(probably 10 hours later) if he's your typical President(CEO, etc). The only way to garner the attention of these folks is to make a legitimate effort, that includes a certified letter, some form of direct contact from somebody with some pull, etc...something to stand out from the typical humdrum.


If somebody went to my dad with an "email link" they would probably get their *** chewed something fierce...the president doesn't have time for that kind of crap.
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:22 AM
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The Frontsight marketing schemes are at best questionable. I have no illusions about them. But opposing a change in a right direction just because it is not ideal requires a SOLID plan to make the change even better in a REASONABLE amount of time. At this point I trust CalGuns much more than Frontsight but can someone here give me an idea what are we looking at as a timeline on when legal actions will start producing LTC results in counties like mine (Santa Clara)? I'm a member of Fronsight because they provide a good training. I'm planning to be there this April and most likely they will ask me to sign the petition there. At this point I do not have anything else against it but the fact that it is imperfect and likely wouldn't pass anyway. This is not a strong enough reason for me not to sign it.
Did I miss something?
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:26 AM
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The Frontsight marketing schemes are at best questionable. I have no illusions about them. But opposing a change in a right direction just because it is not ideal requires a SOLID plan to make the change even better in a REASONABLE amount of time. At this point I trust CalGuns much more than Frontsight but can someone here give me an idea what are we looking at as a timeline on when legal actions will start producing LTC results in counties like mine (Santa Clara)? I'm a member of Fronsight because they provide a good training. I'm planning to be there this April and most likely they will ask me to sign the petition there. At this point I do not have anything else against it but the fact that it is imperfect and likely wouldn't pass anyway. This is not a strong enough reason for me not to sign it.
Did I miss something?
Scocca v. Smith and Richards v. Prieto will address the constitutional issues of "bear". Richards is stayed pending Nordyke, Scocca may be also. Supporting the wrong proposition now doesn't get you rights faster.

Yes, you missed something.

-Brandon
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:34 AM
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I had some conversation with his "right hand man" in the past in email's. Didn't go well, he made threats, etc. Actually thought I was talking to an 'ex-con. Really. Mind blowing emails.
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:39 AM
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I had some conversation with his "right hand man" in the past in email's. Didn't go well, he made threats, etc. Actually thought I was talking to an 'ex-con. Really. Mind blowing emails.
Who do you think his "right hand man" is?
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:42 AM
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The Frontsight marketing schemes are at best questionable. I have no illusions about them. But opposing a change in a right direction just because it is not ideal requires a SOLID plan to make the change even better in a REASONABLE amount of time.
This is not a change in the right direction. There are things that are unacceptable in the initiative. The timeline for shall issue in CA is uncertain. Most likely one or more civil carry cases will be ready for SCOTUS next year. There were three carry cases before SCOTUS this year but all were criminal cases and all were denied a hearing. If SCOTUS accepts one of the upcoming cases expect to have a ruling in June of 2013 and if the case isn't a CA case a few more months for a lawsuit to kick CA in line which puts us around 24 months from now. Longest timeline is around 5 years.
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:45 AM
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If any of you still replying with questions asking why it's so bad, here's your answer. It is painfully obvious that you didn't R-E-A-D these links that all discuss VERY SPECIFICALLY HOW AND WHY IT'S BAD nor did you read the initiative itself. If someone actually copied/pasted all of the reasons discussed in these threads and posted them here in this thread, I doubt most of you would read them based on your questions poised well after the following sources were posted.

READING IS YOUR FRIEND, quit being lazy. Brandon doesn't have time to spoon-feed you apple-sauce because the spoon is too heavy for you, speaking of which, I have a diaper to change on my newborn.

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Old 01-09-2012, 7:54 AM
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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
Scocca v. Smith and Richards v. Prieto will address the constitutional issues of "bear". Richards is stayed pending Nordyke, Scocca may be also. Supporting the wrong proposition now doesn't get you rights faster.

Yes, you missed something.

-Brandon
I know about these and follow them.
I do not see how these cases will give better results in a long run. Lets say we win both of them and get a a virtual "shall issue" in Santa Clara in two years from now. I can almost see now that our "representatives" will quickly amend the penal code and will include all of these provisions from the proposed ballot that you don't like and even more the same year they see that they are about to loose LTC issue. Does anyone here believe it will not happen? It is actually much more likely than this ballot getting through.

So what are we are really fighting against here? I'm not sure that benefits of getting a better LTC policy for a short period of time would outweigh unnecessary internal fights between supporters of the ballot and CalGuns. I would rather unite forces.
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Old 01-09-2012, 7:57 AM
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This is not a change in the right direction. There are things that are unacceptable in the initiative. The timeline for shall issue in CA is uncertain. Most likely one or more civil carry cases will be ready for SCOTUS next year. There were three carry cases before SCOTUS this year but all were criminal cases and all were denied a hearing. If SCOTUS accepts one of the upcoming cases expect to have a ruling in June of 2013 and if the case isn't a CA case a few more months for a lawsuit to kick CA in line which puts us around 24 months from now. Longest timeline is around 5 years.
These "unacceptable" things DO look reasonable for majority of population and WILL pass the legislation EASILY. We cannot win that battle now. So lets not pick it just yet.
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Old 01-09-2012, 8:04 AM
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Right now I'm finishing up the new and updated LTC guides, etc. for 2012.

-Brandon
Wait a minute....What? Please expand.
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Old 01-09-2012, 8:05 AM
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I can almost see now that our "representatives" will quickly amend the penal code and will include all of these provisions from the proposed ballot that you don't like and even more the same year they see that they are about to loose LTC issue. Does anyone here believe it will not happen? It is actually much more likely than this ballot getting through.
And CGF would likely file suit challenging the new law on the grounds that it doesn't provide equal protection to all non-prohibited gun owners who desire to carry a firearm for self-defense. Heck, there is already a law suit being run by one of "the right people" to fight LIFETIME prohibition for ALL people convicted of domestic violence crimes. Why would you think we wouldn't fight a similar law in CA. And what about ANY mental illness? Something like 10% of all American's take antidepressants, most of those probably adults so you want to tell 18% of the adult population they don't have the right to carry a gun to defend themselves? What about sleeping meds? That's a mental illness too. Everyone on sleeping pills is disarmed and chum for the criminals? This initiative actually increases the training requirements, and therefore expense, over the existing laws.
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Old 01-09-2012, 8:05 AM
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Chances are Piazza has a million things to do from the moment he wakes up to the moment he leaves the office(probably 10 hours later) if he's your typical President(CEO, etc). The only way to garner the attention of these folks is to make a legitimate effort, that includes a certified letter, some form of direct contact from somebody with some pull, etc...something to stand out from the typical humdrum.

And I'd bet over 50% of that involves dealing with why there is no more real estate project there
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