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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 01-07-2012, 11:27 PM
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Default 223/5.56 ~Vs~ 7.62X39 - Which Caliber is more Affective?

Hey guys,

I bought my first AR last month. My online ammo just came in today. I also own a Russian SKS and some ammo for it. My question is based on my observation of the two .... Here goes ....

Putting both rounds (5.56 & 7.62X39) next to each other the 5.56 looks soooo tiny in comparison. The actual Bullet looks half the size in MASS. Even the case of 7.62X39 looks more powerful and "killer", compared to the tiny 5.56 case - it's longer in size, but way too tiny (excuse me) next the Russian ammo. I know the 7.62 is a .30 Cal bullet, but Wow.... I've come to like it (starting today), after 10 yrs of owning the 7.62X39 ammo. Funny things is, I didn't even like it, or thought of it much, because I know SKS and it's ammo is not very powerful. And I know AR, M16, M4 guys will tell me how under-powered this round really is. But honestly, it "looks" way more dangerous than the 5.56 next to it.

I think the 7.62X39 would make a good all rounder caliber - which you use for medium size hunting (deer, etc) or even Self defense. And if I was in a critical SD/HD/SHTF situation, I think I would trust the 7.62X39 round more than 5.56.

Having said ALL this, I love my new AR, and I think this ammo will do good. I bought the Green Tip (420 round) and XM193 (500 rounds). Someone HELP me change my mind Plzzzzzzzzzzzzz......... Thanks.
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Old 01-07-2012, 11:32 PM
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A lot of the issue with 762x39 is badly designed SP/HP ammunition. Some of the domestic stuff made brings it in line pretty well with a 30/30 as far as wounding characteristics.


Visit this link, has about all the info you could need to make up your own decision.
http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91







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Old 01-07-2012, 11:34 PM
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5.56 more accurate 7.62 more punch less accurate IMO correct me if im wrong.
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Old 01-07-2012, 11:39 PM
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Default 762

All the way more punch
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Old 01-07-2012, 11:40 PM
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5.56 more accurate 7.62 more punch less accurate IMO correct me if im wrong.
Depends on your ammunition. Older style 762 FMJ doesnt have the best characteristics. Some of the newer stuff with hollow cavity similar to the AK74 bullet designs has a much quicker "yaw" point.
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Old 01-07-2012, 11:45 PM
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awesome thread
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  #7  
Old 01-07-2012, 11:47 PM
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yes newer stuff is better but my statement still stands IMO cause it is still less accurate (7.62) because of its shape.


EDIT: I have both and have tried different rounds through both (sks old yugo rds and new winchester rds) (CMMG 5.56 federal and pmc I think thats the name and others) and I get tighter groups at 100yrds with 5.56
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Voting for Donald Trump is the protest vote against: Keynesian economics, Neocon wars, exporting jobs, open borders, Washington criminal cartel, too big to fail banks and too big to jail pols and banksters.

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Umm yeah!!!!!

Last edited by Yugo; 01-07-2012 at 11:53 PM..
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Old 01-07-2012, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by .40Cal View Post
Funny things is, I didn't even like it, or thought of it much, because I know SKS and it's ammo is not very powerful. And I know AR, M16, M4 guys will tell me how under-powered this round really is. But honestly, it "looks" way more dangerous than the 5.56 next to it..

Huh...?? Im an AR and an AK guy and I will never tell you the 7.62 x 39 round is under-powered. In fact....Id say in many situations its better than 5.56.....for instance penetration through barriers.

They are both great rounds in their own ways......
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  #9  
Old 01-08-2012, 5:12 AM
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I shoot both calibers thru both adversary rifles (US-made m-16a2 clone vs. Russian converted Saiga 762), and just like anyone will tell you, here is a basic breakdown of comparison between the rounds:

5.56 (vs. 7.62x39):
-More accurate round (around 600-800 meters)
-Lighter weight
-Relies on high velocity to fragment or tumble round into target
-Higher velocity (62 gr FMJ bullet 3,100 ft/s)
-Round cost $0.30 to $0.25 per round (55 gr. FMJ, M193 bullet type, brass cased)

7.62x39 (vs. 5.56)
-Less accurate, less range (around 300 meters)
-Heavier weight
-More bullet mass, able to shoot thru concrete cinderblocks
-Lower velocity (123 gr FMJ bullet 2,400 ft/s)
-Round cost $0.16 to $0.22 per round (123 gr. FMJ, M67 bullet, brass cased, Yugoslavian)
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Old 01-08-2012, 6:08 AM
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Default Play Dough

I find the Russians more affective. Americans are more effective. Did anyone pay attention in class ??

Edit: you can tell when you place them side by side.
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Old 01-08-2012, 6:48 AM
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Not this again!!!

You have both so enjoy them and don't worry about it, I'm sure either will do what you want if you need them too...
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Old 01-08-2012, 6:54 AM
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They are simply two different projectiles. They each do what they do. Neither is better than the other in every situation. There is no "best".
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Old 01-08-2012, 7:45 AM
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5.56 is clearly better than 7.62x39 which is clearly better than 5.56
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Old 01-08-2012, 8:12 AM
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556 vs 762x39

Both will kill or wound. Ask any combat medic.
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Old 01-08-2012, 9:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retzius View Post
5.56 is clearly better than 7.62x39 which is clearly better than 5.56
Uuh...Ok Anyways, looking at the 5.56, I don't know why our military uses that round as their primary round? And what's the big deal about 223 caliber? As a sporter, I'm sure the AR is fun to shoot.

I'm kind of seeing why AK47 is so popular all over the world!! But nevertheless, AR is still very popular with police, military, and others. Even a 9mm with a +P+ looks bigger.... Sorry about my ignorance. But I think I'll be ordering a case of 7.62 X 39 soon - a gun/round that I didn't care for ever...
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Old 01-08-2012, 9:06 AM
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Caliber remorse? Bah! Enjoy your guns and your ammo.
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Old 01-08-2012, 9:18 AM
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Originally Posted by .40Cal View Post
Uuh...Ok Anyways, looking at the 5.56, I don't know why our military uses that round as their primary round? And what's the big deal about 223 caliber? As a sporter, I'm sure the AR is fun to shoot.

I'm kind of seeing why AK47 is so popular all over the world!! But nevertheless, AR is still very popular with police, military, and others. Even a 9mm with a +P+ looks bigger.... Sorry about my ignorance. But I think I'll be ordering a case of 7.62 X 39 soon - a gun/round that I didn't care for ever...
Sorry, but you have to dig a little deeper to determine how Effective a particular caliber is for your intended use of the round. As previously stated, there is no perfect all-around caliber out there. If there was that is what everyone would use and nothing else. Also, you have to get over the looks and size of the bullet. There is so much more that goes into ballistics than just mass.
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Old 01-08-2012, 9:30 AM
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Old 01-08-2012, 9:59 AM
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For assaulting an inner city compound - use 7.62x39.

For a long range skirmish in the Hindu Kush - use .308.

For anything in between - use 5.56x45.

That's how I see it.

But if I had to hump the weapon and ammo over the Hindu Kush, I'd damn well want to be carrying 5.56. Have fun lugging .308 or 7.62x39 over mountains.
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:10 AM
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Stop this thread ,please

7.62 when Zombies attack, paper punching 5.56
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:32 AM
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6.8 lol
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:35 AM
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FOR REAL?!!! ....



Both rounds have advantages and disadvantages...
Both rounds have been battle proven...
Both rounds can kill or maim...

.........
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .40Cal View Post
Hey guys,
Having said ALL this, I love my new AR, and I think this ammo will do good. I bought the Green Tip (420 round) and XM193 (500 rounds). Someone HELP me change my mind Plzzzzzzzzzzzzz......... Thanks.
Both of your examples are grouped into what are loosely called "intermediate" cartridges. That is, midway between pistol cartridges and full power rifle cartridges. The intention for these reduced power rounds was simple enough when they were created: With actual combat taking place at 400 yards or less there was little need for the average soldier to carry an excessively long, heavy weapon capable of 1200 yards.

As further analysis revealed to military planners, when two opposing forces met in combat, the team with the highest firepower tended to prevail. In WWII the edge went to the semi-automatic Garand compared to the bolt action rifles carried by the opposition. The need was identified to put more ammunition capacity into the hands of an infantryman, with a rifle capable of a much higher practical rate of fire which created the first true assault rifle late in the war.

The 7.92x33 mm Kurtz was among the first purpose-built intermediate cartridges, grandfather of the rounds all "assault rifles" would use for the next several generations. Despite all of this, Western military scientists, particularly in the US, were slow to adopt the intermediate caliber assault rifle concept. The use of lighter recoiling intermediate cartridges, whether they be as small a 4.6 mm or as large as 7.92 mm, was to promote controllable full automatic fire. It was not originally deemed to be for supporting a lighter combat load on a weapon primarily used in semi-automatic, but that's where things have evolved to the present time.

Modern infantry tactics have evolved from what was once considered the proper way to use assault riflles; weapon at hip level, firing full automatic in the general direction of the enemy and hitting targets largely through the volume of fire rather than relying on precise aiming (spray and pray). Rifles firing these intermediate cartridges have now all but replaced the full power battle rifles that proceeded them, but are being used in a manner similar to those longer, heavier full-power weapons. Each shot is more carefully aimed, more often fired from semi-automatic with the aid of optics and there is a desire in many instances to reach targets in excess of 400 yards, particularly where mountains and open country demand it.

The use of the intermediate cartridge, while less important for a semi-automatic rifle than the original rationale for controllable full automatic, has yielded gains such as the ability to carry more ammunition for the same weight of combat load, somewhat easier training for new soldiers with the milder recoil being less intimidating leads to less flinching among new recruits. Within the typical combat distances of 400 yards or less, little loss in effectiveness under most circumstances.

What a civilian chooses for a semi-automatic rifle will come down to what you would like to do with a specific rifle and your individual capabilities. In most cases, the differences between intermediate calibers of all kinds are relatively small and if fired from identical barrels of roughly the same length it will be bullet construction and shot placement that determines effectiveness. The selection of the ammunition and weapon are relatively less important than the competence and confidence someone has in that weapon and ammunition through regular practice and within the limitations of the equipment and the user. Any generalities based on the caliber alone aren't very useful.

A well constructed, low BC soft point or hollow point .311" caliber bullet on top of a well refined handload or even just high quality factory ammunition when fired out of a well made rifle with a good barrel (CZ 527 carbine for example) can achieve very good accuracy and would be a good hunting rifle for distances out to about 300 yards. The maximum effective range to a paper target might be closer to 525 yards with this combination, but there are questions of how ethical it would be to attempt to harvest game at those distances with this particular combination even if the hunter was capable of making the shot.

Bullets don't always do what they are intended to do when velocities get below a certain point as can happen when much of that energy is expended just getting to the target. Even with a solid hit from a much more powerful caliber, healthy animals will most often remain on their feet and can run long distances from where they were hit before succumbing to their injuries. Cleanly harvesting game entails minimizing the chances of a gut shot or a hit which does not quickly kill, as with later infection from an ineffective shoulder or neck hit rather than the effects of trauma or blood loss from a solid hit to heart, lung or liver.

Both of the calibers you mentioned, with proper hunting loads and decent shot placement, are regularly used to take game every hunting season. The type of game, the typical distances and and any intermediate brush can help determine which of the two, if you were limited to JUST those two, would be the better choice, though it could be splitting hairs much of the time. Neither are "powerful" hunting rounds when compared to full power cartridges like the .30-06, .270, .308, .30-30 or even the .243.

7.62x39 mm can be made to behave like a light loaded .30-30 (you can handload to within about 85%), but only with bullets up to about 150 grain and that's the hairy edge for what is possible with so little case capacity. .223 is a fine deer caliber with good shop placement and a proper heavy soft point in the 70 grain plus weights at roughly the same ranges of 300 yards or less. The .223 will shoot flatter, but flat shooting alone never stopped a capable hunter who knows what his particular rifle will do with a particular load at a given distance. .45-70 is a powerful old cartridge, but flat trajectory is not one of it's enviable characteristics, yet it remains popular among a stalwart crowd of hunters.

Hunting bullets designed to take game you plan to eat aren't generally of the same type as you'd find HD/LEO calling for. LEO type bullets are designed to quickly incapacitate and tend to do so with rapid expansion or fragmentation within the minimum depth of tissue penetration. Most hunters frown on ruined meat, and any frangible, explosively fragmenting or lightly built "varmint" bullet (which is what many of the more frighteningly fragmenting bullets started off as) that produces such effects would not be a first choice. Nobody eats coyote or marmot that I've ever met and organized hunts for destructive wild pigs that might be thought to be infected with rabies are not going to be on anyones dinner plate. Lightly built bullets with plastic tips, hollow points or just flimsy jacketed FMJs can fall into this category, how reliably they do what they are designed to do separates the quality ammo from the plinking ammo. Rather than expanding and staying together, like a good hunting bullets, HD/LEO bullets are designed primarily to rapidly yaw and fragment within just a few inches of penetration. If a hit is made, there is less risk of large fragments continuing to travel through walls or hit bystanders. Tissue destruction can be extensive, though only within specific ranges where velocity is high enough for the bullet to behave consistently and as it was intended. A 200-250 yard range to achieve the desired effect might be a problem given that real-world HD scenarios are 3-7 yards based on the size of a typical home. Unrealistic expectations should be avoided - nothing drops instantaneously from most kinds of hits and I wouldn't expect that to be any different if (heaven forbid) you had to use your weapon in close quarters in a life or death situation against an armed intruder. In any case, I certainly wouldn't expect it to act like a death ray on people while still allowing a 85-150 lb. game animal to get up and run away after a similarly solid hit.

In general, small bore, high velocity bullets behave at their best when their is much more velocity than the minimum required for the bullet to do what it was designed to do. Larger caliber, heavier bullets still benefit from the additional velocity, but have a better chance of hitting a vital structure even if there is insufficient energy to expand or fragment. All long streamlined rifle bullets will tumble and depending on the remaining energy, it may be the only effect that occurs that you can actually rely upon.

Hits to the central nervous system or at top of the neck against the spinal column are always highly destructive and quickly incapacitating, but hard to achieve with consistency at longer distances which is why larger targets are generally preferred. There may also be more energy required, or the construction of the bullet is not suitable for passing through a particular structure comprised of bone to hit a vital structure on the other side. Knowing roughly how much penetration a given bullet will provide, through bone, cartilage and sinew at a given distance gives better confidence that if a shot presents itself, that shot can be delivered cleanly. In heavier built animals, a lightly built fragmenting bullet would be inappropriate because you cannot be assured it will penetrate deeply enough to reach a vital structure. The same bullet the penetrates only 2" of tissue and breaks apart to fit an LEO requirement against aggressive humans might just have managed to to penetrate a thick hide and sub-cutaneous fat before fragmenting even before its fragments have reaching heavy muscle and bone tissue along the path to a vital organ.

The only way to know for certain if you have the right equipment is to go out and test it on animal carcasses or hide and clothing covered ballistics gel, at different distances and angles and then evaluate the results. You may find that what works very well in one set of circumstances may be poor in another. Quality soft points are probably the closest thing there is to an "all-around" rifle bullet type, regardless of caliber that is suitable for hunting or for more personal protection if it became necessary and no other weapon was available.

For home defense type situations a rifle of ANY kind is generally less preferable than a handgun or shotgun unless you have a large ranch and lenient local self-protection laws that permit use of lethal force under circumstances that may not be deemed reasonable in urban and suburban domiciles. You might want to check your gun laws on that one. In summary, either of the calibers you choose can be made to work, it's going to be on you with consistent shot placement and ammunition choice, not caliber that will be the real deciding factors.

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Old 01-08-2012, 11:10 AM
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^^^^ holy crap man
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:26 PM
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I find the Russians more affective. Americans are more effective.

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Old 01-08-2012, 12:49 PM
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As you guys said, both have pros and cons, and that is why I have both calibers
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Old 01-08-2012, 1:05 PM
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Don't know if you ever saw this video but it's pretty good on info

NAVSEA video Technical report - Concealment does not equal cover
http://www.militaryvideos.net/videos.php?videonum=43

It’s pretty straight on the issues and the results speaks for themselves.

Here is the video on YouTube broken up into 2 parts.
Part 1

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Old 01-08-2012, 1:09 PM
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fk it, gonna go buy an AK74 just to mess things up
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Old 01-08-2012, 1:27 PM
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Originally Posted by .40Cal View Post
Even a 9mm with a +P+ looks bigger....
You probably lied on one of the DROS questions if it wasn't. That though brings up the reason why there is such a thing as .223: at rifle ranges, rifle rounds >>> pistol rounds. At the 300 yard end of the spectrum definitely give me a .223 which I can put into the vitals, wasn't impressed with my SKS at 100 yards. That is the ultimate indicator whether a target is going to go down where winging a target with a bigger bullet is a fail in comparison.
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Old 01-08-2012, 2:11 PM
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lets close this thread
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  #31  
Old 01-08-2012, 2:17 PM
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Here's the breakdown for right caliber for the job (my 2 cents):

.223/5.56
Use for punching paper, target shooting, and with the right ammo, defense against 2-legged predators. Can also take deer and hog, not preferable though (I don't want thousands of microscopic lead particles that have fragmented in my game meat).

7.62x39
Good for all of the above as .223/5.56, can actually destroy protective cover such as concrete and has good penetration verses vehicles

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The 7,62x39 was a good round for engaging vehicles - much better than the 5,56 out of the M4, but my role during missions was that of a Detail Leader, so engaging vehicles was not my top priority.
Source: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...8&postcount=15
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  #32  
Old 01-08-2012, 2:33 PM
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One rifle, one planet, Holland's 375

J/K

The 5.56 was developed as a low recoil, lightweight (gun and ammo) for mass troop use. It allows the infantry soldier to be more accurate and carry a larger number of loaded rounds without as much weight penalty.
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  #33  
Old 01-08-2012, 6:56 PM
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I don't think the paper really cares. I mean really, if we have to come to actually shooting at people (which 99.99999% of us NEVER will) we have more important things to worry about as a free people! Buy what you can afford to shoot and just be proficient at it.

Oh yeah, also don't forget to bring a friend to increase the numbers of responsible owners!!!!
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Old 01-08-2012, 7:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flouncer View Post
I find the Russians more affective. Americans are more effective. Did anyone pay attention in class ??

Edit: you can tell when you place them side by side.
I knew I wasn't the only one to notice this...

Punch the hole with 7.62, then tactically insert the 5.56 through the same hole for double effectiveness! =D
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  #35  
Old 01-08-2012, 7:26 PM
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So where does the 5.45x39 fall in all of this?
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  #36  
Old 01-08-2012, 7:38 PM
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i seriously can't believe this thread was started.
it's the biggest pissing contest next to old debate on what's better the AR vs AK.
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  #37  
Old 01-08-2012, 7:38 PM
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Agree with some of the others. In an urban enviroment where you might be shooting through mediums, 7.62X39.

In an open area where you might have to take a long shot, 5.56X45.
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Old 01-08-2012, 7:59 PM
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Well, this is just my opinion, but the bigger, the better. Becuase the 7.62 is a bigger round, there will be more power. The qualifier is though that the 7.62 is only 2.06% more powerful than the 5.56. So only 1.5 5.56 bullets will be needed vs 1 7.62. You can not shoot 1.5 bullets though, you would have to shoot 2, so the 2 rounds of 5.56 is 25% more effective than one 7.62, meaning more than 103% greater chance that the threat would be neutralized. also the 5.56 weighs 40% less than 7.62, meaning 350% more 5.56 can be carried. But If you are looking for the most effective round possible against a single threat, it would be the 410 shotgun, with birdshot.

Or you could just accept that size does not matter as much as the hype would have you believe. Go with the cheaper ammo.
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Old 01-08-2012, 8:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .40Cal View Post
And I know AR, M16, M4 guys will tell me how under-powered this round really is. But honestly, it "looks" way more dangerous than the 5.56 next to it.

I think the 7.62X39 would make a good all rounder caliber - which you use for medium size hunting (deer, etc) or even Self defense. And if I was in a critical SD/HD/SHTF situation, I think I would trust the 7.62X39 round more than 5.56.
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Old 01-08-2012, 9:28 PM
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When SHTF, some peeps will be busy tryin to decide on what caliber to use, while the rest of us will be rackin kills
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