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  #1  
Old 01-07-2012, 7:32 PM
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Default Cars motorcycles and EMP device

What cars and motorcycles will survive an EMP detonation? It would only fry circuit boards right? If so could one build a faraday cage around their cars computer?
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Old 01-07-2012, 7:38 PM
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That's why I have a 70's Jeep!
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Old 01-07-2012, 7:59 PM
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Possibly anything with a set of points instead of a module setup. Old school points, with a carb, and mechanical/manual everything.
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Old 01-07-2012, 8:13 PM
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Default EMP

I would think that most cars manufactured in model year '73 or earlier would survive an EMP--no computer modules.
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Old 01-07-2012, 8:50 PM
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There was an experiment run where they generated some VERY powerful EMP at close range to a modern car, truck, and big-rig. All three sputtered and died when the EMP fired. All three started right back up again afterwards.

The kind of EMP needed to cause significant damage to most electronics would also quite literally COOK YOU. So the Crispy (freak jiffy pop accident) version of you would probably not care as dead crispy things don't need electronics.
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Old 01-07-2012, 9:04 PM
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Originally Posted by meaty-btz View Post
There was an experiment run where they generated some VERY powerful EMP at close range to a modern car, truck, and big-rig. All three sputtered and died when the EMP fired. All three started right back up again afterwards.

The kind of EMP needed to cause significant damage to most electronics would also quite literally COOK YOU. So the Crispy (freak jiffy pop accident) version of you would probably not care as dead crispy things don't need electronics.
What he said.
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Old 01-07-2012, 9:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ElvenSoul View Post
That's why I have a 70's Jeep!
My '72 Landcruiser will be around
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Old 01-07-2012, 9:56 PM
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i have an 84 YZ250 that will work and when my 54 Willy's is done that will work too i hope.
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Old 01-07-2012, 10:12 PM
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NOTHING would survive an EMP. The condenser in the old style distributors would be fried as well as the battery. You could build small Faraday cages around the battery and distributor and hope for the best? Maybe you could make the Faraday cage from part of your tin foil hat

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Old 01-08-2012, 6:45 AM
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My '72 Landcruiser will be around
So will my '77 Fj40
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Old 01-08-2012, 9:10 AM
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old mech diesel.. but the battery might get cooked.
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:30 PM
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There is nothing official out there on what would and would not survive an EMP weapon. A weaponized EMP's effects are likely classified to prevent the "Bad Guys" from preparing an effective defense.

There have been some official reports released to the public using simulated, ramped down, techniques, i.e. man-made lighting...and they did effect some modern vehicles but as an earlier poster mentioned, they vehicles started right back up. They did not test items like cell phones, watches, weapon optics, etc. so it is a guessing game where you extrapolate from simulated, ramped down results.

I personally do not believe the smaller electronics like watches and digital safe locks would be effected. But that is personal opinion.

I do think items with antennas will be effected due to the fact that they are designed to receive a signal and feed it directly into the circuitry of the device. So cell phones, car alarm FOBs, Wi-Fi, etc. would be affected for this reason.

I keep hearing people say that something that could affect your watch would fry "you"...I say back that statement up because it does not exist except in movies. Sounds like so much elementary school physics talking.
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:41 PM
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The notion that only older cars will survive an EMP attack is just an excuse so that old guys like my Dad can justify keeping that rusted out heap of junk in the back yard that still differentiates between leaded and unleaded gas. It's part of the whole LP's sound better than CD's argument that has everything to do with personal preference and nothing to do with actual data. 'Sides, everyone knows 8-trac is best.
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by TurboS600 View Post
NOTHING would survive an EMP. The condenser in the old style distributors would be fried as well as the battery. You could build small Faraday cages around the battery and distributor and hope for the best? Maybe you could make the Faraday cage from part of your tin foil hat
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Originally Posted by meaty-btz View Post
There was an experiment run where they generated some VERY powerful EMP at close range to a modern car, truck, and big-rig. All three sputtered and died when the EMP fired. All three started right back up again afterwards.

The kind of EMP needed to cause significant damage to most electronics would also quite literally COOK YOU. So the Crispy (freak jiffy pop accident) version of you would probably not care as dead crispy things don't need electronics.
This is why the interweb is so entertaining.. lol
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by thunderbolt View Post
The notion that only older cars will survive an EMP attack is just an excuse so that old guys like my Dad can justify keeping that rusted out heap of junk in the back yard that still differentiates between leaded and unleaded gas. It's part of the whole LP's sound better than CD's argument that has everything to do with personal preference and nothing to do with actual data. 'Sides, everyone knows 8-trac is best.
Not so, thundferbolt. My Fy40 is recently brand spanking re-new!
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  #16  
Old 01-08-2012, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by TheChief View Post
There is nothing official out there on what would and would not survive an EMP weapon. A weaponized EMP's effects are likely classified to prevent the "Bad Guys" from preparing an effective defense.

There have been some official reports released to the public using simulated, ramped down, techniques, i.e. man-made lighting...and they did effect some modern vehicles but as an earlier poster mentioned, they vehicles started right back up. They did not test items like cell phones, watches, weapon optics, etc. so it is a guessing game where you extrapolate from simulated, ramped down results.

I personally do not believe the smaller electronics like watches and digital safe locks would be effected. But that is personal opinion.

I do think items with antennas will be effected due to the fact that they are designed to receive a signal and feed it directly into the circuitry of the device. So cell phones, car alarm FOBs, Wi-Fi, etc. would be affected for this reason.

I keep hearing people say that something that could affect your watch would fry "you"...I say back that statement up because it does not exist except in movies. Sounds like so much elementary school physics talking.
Not "effect" destroy. The electromagnetic field strength required to destroy the majority of modern (shielded) devices would have enough energy density to cook flesh. EM, is EM, is EM. All electromagnetic pulses are electromagnetic fields and must obey all the physics involved. The density required to cause permanent damage is extremely high. Just as doing maint. on shipboard radar and some jack-hole turns it on to test mode and kills you but chances are your iPhone would survive that.

The tests also are not ramped down, they are ramped up. Remember that EM field strength fall-off is the inverse of the distance cubed. That is an EMP that everyone fears is immensely powerful just to reach the ground. Make that intense enough to cause permanent damage to modern electronics is even higher than that required to cause harm to human tissue. EM Fields are Radiation FIELDS, EM is EM from very long low energy to very short high energy. Any field strong enough to cause long term damage will kill a human.

There is why we can send electronics into space on long voyages and have them mostly survive but if we put a human in the same field strength you would have a very dead (cooked) human. In terms of physics there is no real difference between em fields except for energy/scale/orientation.

The most layman I can get with this is something everyone is familiar with: Microwave Ovens which are actually oscillating magnetron and operate well out of the "microwave" band of em energy. Now, take apart you microwave. We will run two experiments, place your iphone within 2-3" of your magnetron. Turn it on for 1 second. Examine iPhone for damage. Place Magnetron within 3" of your hand, turn it on. Compare the results.

I could go on, and deal with things that a high altitude EMP bomb would generate as well like Beta Burns (who does not like to be slow-cooked) and why fallout is so dangerous. How, why gamma (ionising) radiation is scary I find beta to be the more scary because of the slow death. Alpha, the 9mm of the radioactive world. Beta the 45ACP of the radioactive world. Let us not forget Gamma, the .223 of the radioactive world.
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Last edited by meaty-btz; 01-08-2012 at 1:00 PM..
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  #17  
Old 01-08-2012, 12:58 PM
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I spent some time testing eletronic equipment for GE and we did some pretty nasty stuff trying to fail it. If an EMP has enough energy to damage modern equipment, it's vaporizing everything anyway, so whether your car has caps and points or an electronic ignition will be irrelevant. Any survivors will be living in the stone age for the forseeable future.
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Old 01-08-2012, 2:40 PM
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You guys are just KILLING all the "SHTF EMP" dreams out there.. it's just mean!
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Old 01-08-2012, 2:40 PM
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My 71 FJ40 would have made it but I just put in a fuel injected V8 out of an old Z28 camero. I wonder if I could just get a spare computer for it?
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Old 01-08-2012, 2:56 PM
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Originally Posted by pkbirdog View Post
My 71 FJ40 would have made it but I just put in a fuel injected V8 out of an old Z28 camero. I wonder if I could just get a spare computer for it?
If the computer in your vehicle can get cooked, then the spare computer sitting on the shelf can too.
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Old 01-08-2012, 3:26 PM
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Pretty sure this will continue to work after an EMP.

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Old 01-08-2012, 4:19 PM
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Originally Posted by meaty-btz View Post
Not "effect" destroy. The electromagnetic field strength required to destroy the majority of modern (shielded) devices would have enough energy density to cook flesh. EM, is EM, is EM. All electromagnetic pulses are electromagnetic fields and must obey all the physics involved. The density required to cause permanent damage is extremely high. Just as doing maint. on shipboard radar and some jack-hole turns it on to test mode and kills you but chances are your iPhone would survive that.

The tests also are not ramped down, they are ramped up. Remember that EM field strength fall-off is the inverse of the distance cubed. That is an EMP that everyone fears is immensely powerful just to reach the ground. Make that intense enough to cause permanent damage to modern electronics is even higher than that required to cause harm to human tissue. EM Fields are Radiation FIELDS, EM is EM from very long low energy to very short high energy. Any field strong enough to cause long term damage will kill a human.

There is why we can send electronics into space on long voyages and have them mostly survive but if we put a human in the same field strength you would have a very dead (cooked) human. In terms of physics there is no real difference between em fields except for energy/scale/orientation.

The most layman I can get with this is something everyone is familiar with: Microwave Ovens which are actually oscillating magnetron and operate well out of the "microwave" band of em energy. Now, take apart you microwave. We will run two experiments, place your iphone within 2-3" of your magnetron. Turn it on for 1 second. Examine iPhone for damage. Place Magnetron within 3" of your hand, turn it on. Compare the results.

I could go on, and deal with things that a high altitude EMP bomb would generate as well like Beta Burns (who does not like to be slow-cooked) and why fallout is so dangerous. How, why gamma (ionising) radiation is scary I find beta to be the more scary because of the slow death. Alpha, the 9mm of the radioactive world. Beta the 45ACP of the radioactive world. Let us not forget Gamma, the .223 of the radioactive world.
buzz killington.
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Old 01-08-2012, 5:46 PM
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... an old Z28 camero. ....
Negative 100 internets for putting an "e" in CAMaRO...
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Old 01-08-2012, 6:35 PM
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Default Interesting Read

This and other threads about EMP made me curious. I've heard so many conflicting opinions that I thought I'd see what I could dig up. This is the best I could find with regards to simplicity and believability.

www.futurescience.com/emp/EMP-myths.html
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Old 01-08-2012, 6:40 PM
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Well I'll be cruising down the street with my 64 Impala with the top down with my mac 11 after the EMP hits with the Ak-Team going to the hide out hitting switches.
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Old 01-08-2012, 6:54 PM
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Negative 100 internets for putting an "e" in CAMaRO...
You got the point though.
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Old 01-09-2012, 2:47 PM
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Originally Posted by meaty-btz View Post
There was an experiment run where they generated some VERY powerful EMP at close range to a modern car, truck, and big-rig. All three sputtered and died when the EMP fired. All three started right back up again afterwards.

The kind of EMP needed to cause significant damage to most electronics would also quite literally COOK YOU. So the Crispy (freak jiffy pop accident) version of you would probably not care as dead crispy things don't need electronics.
but but but!!!! thay goes against my SHTF fantasy where I run off into the sunset as the wastelands lord and savior in my moms old Volvo with my 5k rounds of rifle, 2k rounds of handgun, 3k rounds of shotgun ammo and my tacticool gear! Meanie!!!
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Old 01-09-2012, 3:12 PM
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I was hoping someone would catch the awful spawn joke.. oh well...

As for crushing dreams, my large feet are good for that. The song of the crushed dreams of other serenades me to sleep at night.
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Old 01-10-2012, 8:52 AM
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hahaha. You know, some people in the past have said, "I cant wait for SHTF"
Now I'm starting to wish for something like that. When infrastructure returns, cars keep running, there are going to be a lot of cammo'd heart breaks out there.
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Old 01-10-2012, 9:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meaty-btz View Post
There was an experiment run where they generated some VERY powerful EMP at close range to a modern car, truck, and big-rig. All three sputtered and died when the EMP fired. All three started right back up again afterwards.

The kind of EMP needed to cause significant damage to most electronics would also quite literally COOK YOU. So the Crispy (freak jiffy pop accident) version of you would probably not care as dead crispy things don't need electronics.


"Staff members of the United States EMP Commission have stated that there are nuclear weapons in existence that can generate 200,000 volts per meter "

Funny I saw a different video. A small EMP was set off next to a car and the car dies FOREVER.

Emp wont cook you as it is set off at 220 miles high. It also interacts with the earths atmosphere to grow in power.

EMP will be ugly.

Think your car will survive this---->

This is a peak power density of 6.6 megawatts per square meter.

How about this?

field strength to saturate at about 50,000 volts per meter.

..................
E1, E2 and E3

by Jerry Emanuelson, B.S.E.E.

Futurescience, LLC

This page is based upon a section that I wrote for Wikipedia. Since future modifications to that article are out of my control, I thought it would be a good idea to archive that material on this web site.

The case of a nuclear electromagnetic pulse differs from other kinds of electromagnetic pulse (EMP) in being a complex electromagnetic multi-pulse. The complex multi-pulse is usually described in terms of three components, and these three components have been defined as such by the international standards commission called the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC).1

The three components of nuclear EMP, as defined by the IEC, are called E1, E2 and E3.

E1

The E1 pulse is the very fast component of nuclear EMP. The E1 component is a very brief but intense electromagnetic field that can quickly induce very high voltages in electrical conductors. The E1 component causes most of its damage by causing electrical breakdown voltages to be exceeded. E1 is the component that can destroy computers and communications equipment and it changes too fast for ordinary lightning protectors to provide effective protection against it. Even consumer transient protectors are becoming increasingly able to handle faster rise-time pulses, though. There are special transient protectors that are fast enough to suppress nuclear EMP.

The E1 component is produced when gamma radiation from the nuclear detonation knocks electrons out of the atoms in the upper atmosphere. The electrons begin to travel in a generally downward direction at relativistic speeds (more than 90 percent of the speed of light). In the absence of a magnetic field, this would produce a large pulse of electric current vertically in the upper atmosphere over the entire affected area. The Earth's magnetic field acts on these electrons to change the direction of electron flow to a right angle to the geomagnetic field. This interaction of the Earth's magnetic field and the downward electron flow produces a very large, but very brief, electromagnetic pulse over the affected area.2

Physicist Conrad Longmire has given numerical values for a typical case of the E1 pulse produced by a second generation nuclear weapon such as those used in high altitude tests of Operation Fishbowl in 1962. According to Longmire, the typical gamma rays given off by the weapon have an energy of about 2 MEV (million electron volts). When these gamma rays collide with atoms in the mid-stratosphere, the gamma rays knock out electrons. This is known as the Compton effect, and the resulting electrons produce an electric current that is known as the Compton current. The gamma rays transfer about half of their energy to the electrons, so these initial electrons have an energy of about 1 MEV. This causes the electrons to begin to travel in a generally downward direction at about 94 percent of the speed of light. Relativistic effects cause the mass of these high energy electrons to increase to about 3 times their normal rest mass.2

If there were no geomagnetic field, and no additional atoms in the lower atmosphere for additional collisions, the electrons would continue to travel downward with an average current density in the stratosphere of about 48 amperes per square meter.2

Because of the downward tilt of the Earth's magnetic field at high latitudes, the area of peak field strength is a U-shaped region to the equatorial side of the nuclear detonation. For nuclear detonations over the continental United States, this U-shaped region is south of the detonation point. Near the equator, where the Earth's magnetic field is more nearly horizontal, the E1 field strength is more nearly symmetrical around the burst location.

The Earth's magnetic field quickly deflects the electrons at right angles to the geomagnetic field, and the extent of the deflection depends upon the strength of the magnetic field. At geomagnetic field strengths typical of the central United States, central Europe or Australia, these initial electrons spiral around the magnetic field lines in a circle with a typical radius of about 85 meters (about 280 feet). These initial electrons are stopped by collisions with other air molecules at a average distance of about 170 meters (a little less than 580 feet). This means that most of the electrons are stopped by collisions with air molecules before the electron can complete one full circle of its spiral around the Earth's magnetic field lines.2

This interaction of the very rapidly moving negatively charged electrons with the magnetic field radiates a pulse of electromagnetic energy. The pulse typically rises to its peak value in about 5 nanoseconds. The magnitude of this pulse typically decays to half of its peak value within 200 nanoseconds. (By the IEC definition, this E1 pulse is ended at one microsecond (1000 nanoseconds) after it begins.) This process occurs simultaneously with about 1025 other electrons.2

There are a number of secondary collisions which cause the subsequent electrons to lose energy before they reach ground level. The electrons generated by these subsequent collisions have such reduced energy that they do not contribute significantly to the E1 pulse.2

These 2 MEV gamma rays will normally produce an E1 pulse near ground level at moderately high latitudes that peaks at about 50,000 volts per meter. This is a peak power density of 6.6 megawatts per square meter.

The process of the gamma rays knocking electrons out of the atoms in the mid-stratosphere causes this region of the atmosphere to become an electrical conductor due to ionization, a process which blocks the production of further electromagnetic signals and causes the field strength to saturate at about 50,000 volts per meter. The strength of the E1 pulse depends upon the number and intensity of the gamma rays produced by the weapon and upon the rapidity of the gamma ray burst from the weapon. The strength of the E1 pulse is also somewhat dependent upon the altitude of the detonation.

There are many reports of super-EMP nuclear weapons that are able to overcome the 50,000 volt per meter limit by the very nearly instantaneous release of a burst of gamma radiation of much higher energy levels than are known to be produced by second generation nuclear weapons. The construction details of these weapons are classified, and therefore cannot be confirmed by scientists in the open scientific literature.3

E2

The E2 component is generated by scattered gamma rays and inelastic gammas produced by weapon neutrons. This E2 component is an "intermediate time" pulse that, by the IEC definition, lasts from about one microsecond to one second after the beginning of the electromagnetic pulse. The E2 component of the pulse has many similarities to the electromagnetic pulses produced by lightning, although the electromagnetic pulse induced by a very close lightning strike may be considerably larger than the E2 component of a nuclear EMP. Because of the similarities to lightning-caused pulses and the widespread use of lightning protection technology, the E2 pulse is generally considered to be the easiest to protect against.

According to the United States EMP Commission, the main potential problem with the E2 component is the fact that it immediately follows the E1 component, which may have damaged the devices that would normally protect against E2.

According to the EMP Commission Executive Report of 2004, "In general, it would not be an issue for critical infrastructure systems since they have existing protective measures for defense against occasional lightning strikes. The most significant risk is synergistic, because the E2 component follows a small fraction of a second after the first component's insult, which has the ability to impair or destroy many protective and control features. The energy associated with the second component thus may be allowed to pass into and damage systems."3

E3

The E3 component is very different from the other two major components of nuclear EMP. The E3 component of the pulse is a very slow pulse, lasting tens to hundreds of seconds, that is caused by the nuclear detonation heaving the Earth's magnetic field out of the way, followed by the restoration of the magnetic field to its natural place. The E3 component has similarities to a geomagnetic storm caused by a very severe solar flare.4, 5, 6 Like a geomagnetic storm, E3 can produce geomagnetically induced currents in long electrical conductors, which can then damage or destroy components such as power line transformers.5

Because of the similarity between solar-induced geomagnetic storms and nuclear E3, it has become common to refer to solar-induced geomagnetic storms as "solar EMP." At ground level, however, "solar EMP" is NOT known to produce an E1 or E2 component.



1. Electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) -- Part 2: Environment -- Section 9: Description of HEMP environment -- Radiated disturbance. Basic EMC publication, IEC 61000-2-9

2. Longmire, Conrad L. Justification and Verification of High-Altitude EMP Theory, Part 1 LLNL-9323905, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. June 1986.

3. Report of the Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack. Volume 1. Executive Report. 2004. Page 6.

4. High-Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse (HEMP): A Threat to Our Way of Life, 09.07, By William A. Radasky, Ph.D., P.E. - IEEE.

5. Report of the Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack.

6. Meta-R-321: The Late-Time (E3) High-Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse (HEMP) and Its Impact on the U.S. Power Grid by James Gilbert, John Kappenman, William Radasky and Edward Savage



Back to the Main Futurescience EMP page.

Last edited by problemchild; 01-10-2012 at 9:32 AM..
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:17 AM
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I read the FutureScience article last night and it was a good read. However, I take his information with a grain of salt. It was not published in trade articles where it could be responded or vetted by other educated individuals nor have anytype of other editorial comment. So in affect, it is one person's opinion and is in a format where it can not be openly questioned.

Just like sources of conflicting information everywhere else.

I am not knocking what he is saying, I am only pointing out, this is one person's opinion, not a scientific paper on the subject so your results may vary.
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:21 AM
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I am trying to figure out how you expect to survive 6.6MW/m^3 field strength. Well, how you expect any animal or plant to.
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Old 01-10-2012, 1:07 PM
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Roaches
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Old 01-10-2012, 1:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2 View Post
You guys are just KILLING all the "SHTF EMP" dreams out there.. it's just mean!
"think of the zombies"
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Old 01-10-2012, 2:31 PM
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He has footnotes at the bottom that are impressive and the US government did a report themselves that said stuff is going to break.

Personally I think cars and trucks will fail. Electricity will fail. Smaller than cars Im not sure but my guess is they will fail. I think very little will survive.

It really wont matter because if the grid fails for months or years its over! All we are doing is arguing about the chairs on the deck of the Titanic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheChief View Post
I read the FutureScience article last night and it was a good read. However, I take his information with a grain of salt. It was not published in trade articles where it could be responded or vetted by other educated individuals nor have anytype of other editorial comment. So in affect, it is one person's opinion and is in a format where it can not be openly questioned.

Just like sources of conflicting information everywhere else.

I am not knocking what he is saying, I am only pointing out, this is one person's opinion, not a scientific paper on the subject so your results may vary.
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Old 01-10-2012, 2:54 PM
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Porsche with EMP device.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL-3VLXNqAI
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Old 01-10-2012, 3:10 PM
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Too much MW3...Call of Duty
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Old 01-10-2012, 3:30 PM
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Nothing to see here folks, move along.......

Wow and the human is still alive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj54FcI7_dE
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Old 01-10-2012, 3:59 PM
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Is 1980's old enough for a diesel car?

http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/2783059139.html
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Old 01-10-2012, 5:29 PM
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the 1980 Mercedes Diesel is likely as any vehicle to be emp proof in that its fuel injection pump is mechanical, only real "electronics" are the alternator/regulator, the rest is just a straight 12 volt electrical system. If an old diesel has a manual transmission there is a chance to "bump" start it but not that likely if at all cold, might need "starting fluid" if you can still get it. Some old chevy 6.2/6.5, ford 6.9 and pre powerstroke 7.3 are non electronic injection pump vehicles (don't know if early powerstrokes are electronic) and 5.9 dodges pre 98 are mechanical injction pump vehicles also. The old mercedes engine is very reliable, some folks have even retrofitted it into land rovers. 85 is the last year of the "E" class car (240 adn 300 d, td) and one year, 86 had an S class 6 cylinder (all the prior 300 d and turbo d cars were 5 cylinder) that was mechanical, after that all electronic pumps.
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