Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > GENERAL DISCUSSION > General gun discussions
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

General gun discussions This is a place to lounge and discuss firearm related topics with other forum members.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-20-2011, 1:45 AM
PsychGuy274's Avatar
PsychGuy274 PsychGuy274 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,289
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default My Rebuttal to the VPC "Study" on CCW

The first time I saw the video posted was a few months ago and it keeps popping up from time to time. A while ago I got into an argument with my buddy over it. He got mad because I told him that it isn't a study, it's propaganda. I decided to write an article on it to show him and others exactly what I mean by that and that I'm not flippantly throwing around derogative words because I disagree with their conclusion. I never got around to posting it, but since I just saw another thread on it, I decided now's the time.

Here's the original video

It's too long to post so it's attached as a Word document.

Critique is always welcome.
Attached Files
File Type: doc VPC Rebuttal.doc (45.0 KB, 184 views)
__________________
I am a law enforcement officer in the state of Colorado. Nothing I post is legal advice of any kind.

CLICK HERE for a San Diego County WIN!

CLICK HERE to read my research review on the fight-or-flight response and its application to firearm training

Last edited by PsychGuy274; 12-20-2011 at 2:16 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-20-2011, 2:31 AM
BKinzey's Avatar
BKinzey BKinzey is offline
OT Banned
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hollywierd
Posts: 4,350
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
This would be analogous to showing someone, whoís never played chess, how the pieces move and then pitting them against a grand master.
Grand Master is a little over the top. Someone who plays chess on a weekly basis or teaches chess would be better.

Overall a very good rebuttal.
__________________
Rogue American, Media Mercenary.
"A firearm is just a tool. Any tool can be used as a weapon, but the most powerful weapons were written."
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-20-2011, 3:04 AM
PsychGuy274's Avatar
PsychGuy274 PsychGuy274 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,289
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BKinzey View Post
Grand Master is a little over the top. Someone who plays chess on a weekly basis or teaches chess would be better.

Overall a very good rebuttal.
Thanks, and I agree. I'll revise that.
__________________
I am a law enforcement officer in the state of Colorado. Nothing I post is legal advice of any kind.

CLICK HERE for a San Diego County WIN!

CLICK HERE to read my research review on the fight-or-flight response and its application to firearm training
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-20-2011, 3:33 AM
jgraham7897's Avatar
jgraham7897 jgraham7897 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Merced, CA
Posts: 682
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Very well written.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-20-2011, 3:43 AM
PsychGuy274's Avatar
PsychGuy274 PsychGuy274 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,289
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgraham7897 View Post
Very well written.
Dude, the gif in your sig kills me every time!
__________________
I am a law enforcement officer in the state of Colorado. Nothing I post is legal advice of any kind.

CLICK HERE for a San Diego County WIN!

CLICK HERE to read my research review on the fight-or-flight response and its application to firearm training
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-20-2011, 3:50 AM
jgraham7897's Avatar
jgraham7897 jgraham7897 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Merced, CA
Posts: 682
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychGuy274 View Post
Dude, the gif in your sig kills me every time!
I know, every time I see it I want to go try it.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-20-2011, 8:34 AM
Down Range Down Range is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 139
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Well written rebuttal.

As of now that video has 415 "likes" and 5,945 "dislikes" - I think that speaks fairly strongly as well.

I'm another fan of your gif jgraham, the way the guy with the gun mimics the golf stroke is hilarious.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-20-2011, 2:04 PM
rojocorsa's Avatar
rojocorsa rojocorsa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: San Ramon
Posts: 8,976
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Guys, the machine Im on currently doesn't have the capability to read .docs (dont have word installed).

Can someone just paste the plain text here or .pdf it?

Thanks.
__________________
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h40/LIR_123/roj.png
7-6-2 FTMFW!

"...and an old German guy said there was a bit of an unsaid joke about the Nazi salute; apparently when they clicked their heels and raised their arm up in the air in a Nazi salute, they were saying, "we're in this much s___."
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-20-2011, 2:39 PM
Untamed1972 Untamed1972 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,901
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

I think something that our side really needs to start hammering on is that "self-defense IS NOT violence" at least not in the sense that most people think of the word.

So as the OP pointed out, when a group who claims to want to reduce criminal violence seems to focus most of their attention on the law-abiding victims of criminal violence they easily reveal what their true goal is.

If you really wanted to prevent people from being vitcims of violent crime, why would you focus your efforts on making it harder for them to not be victims?
__________________
"Freedom begins with an act of defiance"

Quote for the day:
Quote:
"..the mind is the weapon and the hand only its extention. Discipline your mind!" Master Hao, Chenrezi monastery, Valley of the Sun
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-20-2011, 4:33 PM
theicecreamdan theicecreamdan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 189
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Why do you get to throw out numbers without anything backing them up?

"Over 95% of individuals who use firearms for legitimate self-defense never fire a single shot, due to the assailant fleeing at the sight of a threat."
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-20-2011, 4:37 PM
Ubermcoupe's Avatar
Ubermcoupe Ubermcoupe is offline
★ Junior G Man ✈
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: This information has been redacted in accordance with Title 18 USC Section 798
Posts: 12,200
iTrader: 49 / 100%
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Yea, I goofed. Redacted.
__________________
Hauoli Makahiki Hou


-------

Last edited by Ubermcoupe; 12-20-2011 at 7:03 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-20-2011, 5:57 PM
PsychGuy274's Avatar
PsychGuy274 PsychGuy274 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,289
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post

If you really wanted to prevent people from being vitcims of violent crime, why would you focus your efforts on making it harder for them to not be victims?
I like this. I might have to steal it

Quote:
Originally Posted by theicecreamdan View Post
Why do you get to throw out numbers without anything backing them up?

"Over 95% of individuals who use firearms for legitimate self-defense never fire a single shot, due to the assailant fleeing at the sight of a threat."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubermcoupe View Post
Why do you get to assume these stats are correct without backing them up?

Where/who is the source for this?

I refuse to believe unless someone can prove it.
Especially because it comes from a bias “investigatory” report from ABC.





did you 36% of people believe 100% of all statistics...
Geez laweez, don't you guys keep up on our litigation?

From the NRA amicus curiae brief for Richards v. Prieto:

Quote:
Indeed, to prevent completion of a crime it is usually necessary only for the intended victim to display the firearm rather than pull the trigger. A national survey “indicates that about 95 percent of the time that people use guns defensively, they merely have to brandish a weapon to break off an attack.” See Lott, MORE GUNS LESS CRIME, supra, at 3.
But you guy's are right, I forgot to do my citations.
__________________
I am a law enforcement officer in the state of Colorado. Nothing I post is legal advice of any kind.

CLICK HERE for a San Diego County WIN!

CLICK HERE to read my research review on the fight-or-flight response and its application to firearm training
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-20-2011, 6:01 PM
stix213's Avatar
stix213 stix213 is online now
AKA: Joe Censored
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: San Rafael
Posts: 16,311
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Hand someone the keys to your car who has never even driven a car before. Put them on a busy freeway, then have a semi truck cross the median right at them.

Do that and you'll see similar hilarity, and the test is just as valid. It also doesn't mean we should ban driving.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-20-2011, 6:27 PM
Dr Rockso's Avatar
Dr Rockso Dr Rockso is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: San Jose
Posts: 3,671
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

It's been a while since I watched this, but I recall that one of the students scored one or two hits to the upper part of the assailant's leg before being shot. I think they acknowledged this with something along the lines of "these shots aren't fatal", which may be true (in that they're not going to cause an immediate physiological stop), but a bullet hole or two in the region around the femoral artery pretty much ensures that the shooter's murder spree will be cut dramatically short.

Watched it again: At 4:45 blonde girl gets a solid hit to the upper part of the leg, not sure if it was before or after being hit herself. In part 2 another girl gets a hit to the shooter's bicep area. Not a game ender, but moves the ball in the right direction.

Last edited by Dr Rockso; 12-20-2011 at 6:36 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-20-2011, 7:02 PM
Ubermcoupe's Avatar
Ubermcoupe Ubermcoupe is offline
★ Junior G Man ✈
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: This information has been redacted in accordance with Title 18 USC Section 798
Posts: 12,200
iTrader: 49 / 100%
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychGuy274 View Post
Geez laweez, don't you guys keep up on our litigation?

From the NRA amicus curiae brief for Richards v. Prieto:

But you guy's are right, I forgot to do my citations.
LOL, Actually I think I goofed. I believed you the whole time. I think I just misread something. I must edit for clarity.
__________________
Hauoli Makahiki Hou


-------
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-20-2011, 7:48 PM
cranemech's Avatar
cranemech cranemech is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: West Texas Oil Fields
Posts: 1,650
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rojocorsa View Post
Guys, the machine Im on currently doesn't have the capability to read .docs (dont have word installed).

Can someone just paste the plain text here or .pdf it?

Thanks.


Attachment 127327
__________________
"Stupid should hurt" - Armstrong and Getty show

Last edited by cranemech; 04-08-2012 at 9:01 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-20-2011, 8:48 PM
rojocorsa's Avatar
rojocorsa rojocorsa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: San Ramon
Posts: 8,976
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cranemech View Post
Cranemech, many thanks!
__________________
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h40/LIR_123/roj.png
7-6-2 FTMFW!

"...and an old German guy said there was a bit of an unsaid joke about the Nazi salute; apparently when they clicked their heels and raised their arm up in the air in a Nazi salute, they were saying, "we're in this much s___."
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-20-2011, 9:00 PM
rojocorsa's Avatar
rojocorsa rojocorsa is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: San Ramon
Posts: 8,976
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Now having read the OP's report, it was like hot knives through bull**** butter.

I actually noticed many glaringly wrong details while I saw the video. In all, this insults the intelligence of any reasonable individual.
__________________
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h40/LIR_123/roj.png
7-6-2 FTMFW!

"...and an old German guy said there was a bit of an unsaid joke about the Nazi salute; apparently when they clicked their heels and raised their arm up in the air in a Nazi salute, they were saying, "we're in this much s___."
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-20-2011, 11:11 PM
PsychGuy274's Avatar
PsychGuy274 PsychGuy274 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,289
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

If any wants to, feel free to post this to the VPC FB page. I can't post for some reason
__________________
I am a law enforcement officer in the state of Colorado. Nothing I post is legal advice of any kind.

CLICK HERE for a San Diego County WIN!

CLICK HERE to read my research review on the fight-or-flight response and its application to firearm training
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-08-2012, 8:53 PM
DRoberts12345's Avatar
DRoberts12345 DRoberts12345 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Tulare
Posts: 226
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

You should ask them if it caused a problem that he was carrying. It didn't look to me that he shot any innocent victims. I guess that doesn't matter when they are trying to tell there side of the lie (I mean story).
When someone tries to make me feel stupid for carrying in the quiet grocery store, the first thing I ask them is what could it possibly hurt, nobody ever gets shot, hurt, offended, or even knows & btw you're welcome for the extra protection.
__________________
My worst day shooting is better than my best day at work.


Number one with a bullet (Bill Whittle) get your friends to watch this video <YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/pELwCqz2JfE[/YOUTUBE]\>


In California we're called "Wacko right-wing gun toting nut jobs with an arsenal" most other states just call us People.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-08-2012, 10:31 PM
RP1911's Avatar
RP1911 RP1911 is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Minden, NV.
Posts: 4,669
iTrader: 158 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychGuy274 View Post
The first time I saw the video posted was a few months ago and it keeps popping up from time to time. A while ago I got into an argument with my buddy over it. He got mad because I told him that it isn't a study, it's propaganda. I decided to write an article on it to show him and others exactly what I mean by that and that I'm not flippantly throwing around derogative words because I disagree with their conclusion. I never got around to posting it, but since I just saw another thread on it, I decided now's the time.

Here's the original video

It's too long to post so it's attached as a Word document.

Critique is always welcome.
Good rebuttal.

Towards the end you are missing an apostrophe for the word organizations should be organization's.
__________________
RP1911
-----------
CGF, SAF, NYSRPA, NVFAC and NRA
CGN and NVS
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 5:05 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.