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  #1  
Old 12-16-2011, 4:24 PM
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Default How about a Nazi 1911?

or I guess more correctly put, a Norwegian M1914.

Around the same time that the US was choosing a new semi-auto pistol, the Kingdom of Norway was also looking to standardize on a new pistol. They actually ended up selecting Colt's 1903 Model. However, before they could go into full production of the 1903, the US selected the 1911, which caused Norway to reconsider.

Norway ended up selecting the 1911 with a minor change in the design of the slide stop lever. This was designated as the Norwegian Model of 1914, also known as the Kongsberg Colt (as it was made under license in the Kongsberg factory in Norway).

At the start of WW2, Germany invaded and occupied Norway. Production of the Kongsberg Colt continued while under Nazi occupation. It was designated as the Pistole 657(n). Approximately 8000 were made during the period 1940-1945.

However, only in the last year of production did the Germans add the Waffenamt stamp indicating it was a german weapon. This is one of approximately 920 pistols to receive the German Waffenamt, marking it as a Nazi 1911. Notice the Norwegian modified slide stop lever. Makes it easier to operate with one hand.




And shown here with it's "brother" on the other side, a Colt 1911A1. John Moses Browning probably turned over in his grave when the Nazi's made 1911s to use against the U.S.


Anyways, though you guys might enjoy a little history and pics of an unusual 1911. Not something you see everyday!
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  #2  
Old 12-16-2011, 4:26 PM
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whoa nice is it yours?
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Old 12-16-2011, 4:27 PM
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Thanks for sharing...... learning something new is always good
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Old 12-16-2011, 4:28 PM
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so, they manufactured "11.25" to go with these?

Interesting, thanks.
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Old 12-16-2011, 4:35 PM
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Great pics. Thanks for sharing. Is this something you own?
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  #6  
Old 12-16-2011, 4:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gant View Post
whoa nice is it yours?
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Originally Posted by paul0660 View Post
so, they manufactured "11.25" to go with these?

Interesting, thanks.
Yes, this one is mine -- I just picked it up at the last Rock Island Auction. I like weird, unusual, or guns that have a history. This one certainly qualifies as something out of the ordinary!

11.25mm = .45ACP. It would be intresting to see if any .45 ammo was made during the Nazi occupation. I don't think I've ever come across any.
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Old 12-16-2011, 4:41 PM
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Wow! Thanks for the pics and the historical info! I guess you learn something new every day.
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Old 12-16-2011, 4:43 PM
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Quote:
It would be intresting to see if any .45 ammo was made during the Nazi occupation. I don't think I've ever come across any.
Yes, maybe they were planning on using Allied stores after the Axis victory.

OOOOPS.
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  #9  
Old 12-16-2011, 4:46 PM
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Wow very cool piece of history! Thanks for posting up the story. What is a pistol like that worth?
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  #10  
Old 12-16-2011, 4:50 PM
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Beautiful posts Beetle, I have seen some neat stuff in your auction reports.... For some reason I have become curious how you display or enjoy your collection..... I am picturing a well appointed vault room.... You will probably tell me you have a bunch of shoe boxes in the garage...
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Old 12-16-2011, 4:57 PM
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Originally Posted by gatesbox View Post
Beautiful posts Beetle, I have seen some neat stuff in your auction reports.... For some reason I have become curious how you display or enjoy your collection..... I am picturing a well appointed vault room.... You will probably tell me you have a bunch of shoe boxes in the garage...
I stuff them between my mattresses. that reminds me, I need to go get another mattress soon! I wish they had a size larger then King size so I could fit more guns.
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  #12  
Old 12-16-2011, 5:00 PM
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All the parts match too. "799"
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Old 12-16-2011, 8:31 PM
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Very nice. Thats definitely something you dont see every day.
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  #14  
Old 12-16-2011, 8:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gant View Post
whoa nice is it yours?
I wondered the same as well, I should have know since beetle posted it... He gets all the neat pieces for his collection.

Another excellent piece beetle, when I am back in town I just might have to bug you for a private tour.
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  #15  
Old 12-16-2011, 8:48 PM
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Thanks for the share! Its interesting to see, Ive herd of the nazi 1911, never saw an actuall example of it.

Do you have a p-35 to match?
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  #16  
Old 12-16-2011, 8:54 PM
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Thanks for the education. Nice piece you aquired. I can't wait until the day I can attend collector's auctions and be able to actually bid on something unusual.
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  #17  
Old 12-16-2011, 8:55 PM
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Thanks for sharing, that is really cool!
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  #18  
Old 12-16-2011, 9:00 PM
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Very impressive! If I had that kind of $$$ I would hunt one down I'm a big WWII fan.
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  #19  
Old 12-16-2011, 9:01 PM
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dang, I thought my .45's were cool... that thing is beautiful. Thanks for sharing, and the history lesson.
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  #20  
Old 12-16-2011, 9:09 PM
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i kinda like the shape, and position, of the slide release
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  #21  
Old 12-16-2011, 9:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beetle View Post
I stuff them between my mattresses. that reminds me, I need to go get another mattress soon! I wish they had a size larger then King size so I could fit more guns.
Some of us have a "California King".
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  #22  
Old 12-16-2011, 9:14 PM
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very nice story & historical facts.

that slide stop design looks pretty neat... is there anyone making an aftermarket slide stop with a similar design?
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  #23  
Old 12-16-2011, 9:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigkahuna04 View Post
very nice story & historical facts.

that slide stop design looks pretty neat... is there anyone making an aftermarket slide stop with a similar design?
http://e-sarcoinc.com/search.aspx?find=C45006

there ya go.
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Old 12-16-2011, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Carsgunsandchics View Post
Some of us have a "California King".
Then you should know that Ca Kings are not actually "bigger" than standard kings. Ca kings are in fact narrower and longer but, the total area is the same. Oh, women tend to prefer wider over longer so, you might want to reconsider your choice.
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  #25  
Old 12-16-2011, 9:39 PM
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wow that is really neat

Thank you for posting this

Is 11.25mm ammo sold by collectors?
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Old 12-16-2011, 9:42 PM
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  #27  
Old 12-16-2011, 9:45 PM
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Great post , thanks for the pics and history.
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Old 12-17-2011, 8:40 AM
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Good Stuff. Unique Pistol you have there!
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  #29  
Old 12-17-2011, 8:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beetle View Post
Yes, this one is mine -- I just picked it up at the last Rock Island Auction. I like weird, unusual, or guns that have a history. This one certainly qualifies as something out of the ordinary!

11.25mm = .45ACP. It would be intresting to see if any .45 ammo was made during the Nazi occupation. I don't think I've ever come across any.
Very nice.
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Old 12-17-2011, 8:43 AM
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Winning.
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Old 12-17-2011, 8:51 AM
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Very cool!
I used to see lanyard mags for these but I wonder if they vary any from the US version lanyard mags? I have a couple of WWI Colts, it would be a nice addition one day.
Congrats!
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Old 12-18-2011, 9:14 PM
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Thanks everyone for the nice comments. It's always fun to share with fellow enthusiasts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodachrome View Post
Very cool!
I used to see lanyard mags for these but I wonder if they vary any from the US version lanyard mags? I have a couple of WWI Colts, it would be a nice addition one day.
Congrats!
With the exception of the modified slide stop lever, the Norwegian M1914 is identical to a 1911. All of the internals, barrel, etc are standard 1911 parts. I just double checked -- the Norwegian magazine fit into my other 1911s, and other 1911s fit into the Norwegian M1914.

If you ever see any more of those Norwegian lanyard mags, give me a shout! would love to pick up an extra Norwegian magazine to go with this gun.
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Old 12-18-2011, 10:17 PM
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Ooooo I want one!
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Old 12-19-2011, 9:11 AM
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That is awesome.

On a related note - unless a gun's history is documented - like in your case, and it came out of a reputed auction house, I NEVER buy any captured or "occupation" C&R with a Nazi stamp on it.

Reason is - there are tons of counterfeits out there. Many unscrupulous dealers and collectors have taken WW2-era firearms from occupied countries, and stamped them with a Nazi Eagle (Numrich sells those for very little money). I've seen post-war production variants of firearms that some scammer had added a "Nazi" mark on, even though Hitler had been dead for years when production of that particular model variant began.

Anyway, this is a beautiful and rare piece. But be careful out there when buying "Nazi-stamped" firearms from less reputable sources.
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Old 12-19-2011, 9:29 AM
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That is awesome.

On a related note - unless a gun's history is documented - like in your case, and it came out of a reputed auction house, I NEVER buy any captured or "occupation" C&R with a Nazi stamp on it.

Reason is - there are tons of counterfeits out there. Many unscrupulous dealers and collectors have taken WW2-era firearms from occupied countries, and stamped them with a Nazi Eagle (Numrich sells those for very little money). I've seen post-war production variants of firearms that some scammer had added a "Nazi" mark on, even though Hitler had been dead for years when production of that particular model variant began.

Anyway, this is a beautiful and rare piece. But be careful out there when buying "Nazi-stamped" firearms from less reputable sources.
a1c gives very good advice. as he states, the nazi stamps are available from a variety of sources and are usually use to scam people into paying higher prices. Mitchell's Mausers is widely known to pull off this scam, using a variety of mausers and them re-stamping them to be german K98Ks.

While you are a little safer in using well established auction houses, caution is still needed. While I don't think the big auction houses do it on purpose, they can be mistaken as well. In fact, I heard the president of one say "we are an auction house not an authenticity house" but to his credit he also followed it up with "if something is wrong we will make it right".

On my gun I've inspected it and the signs don't lead me to believe it was faked. First, it is known exactly what serial range the Nazi marked ones fall into. Specifically, Nazi marked units must fall between serial #29615 and #30534. Mine falls right into that range. Now it's possible that the Nazi waffenamt might be faked, but then the faker would also need to erase the previous serial #s and re-stamp all of the associated parts to be in the correct serial range as well. In addition, the manufacture year appears on the other side of the slide. In this case, 1945. Unless the faker already had a 1945 marked slide, this would need to be corrected as well. Finally, from the closeup picture you can see that the Nazi waffenamt has phosphate finish inside of it. This tells us that the stamps were applied prior to the finish being applied. Stamps applied after the fact would show finish wear or burnishing.

Anyways, a1c's advice is solid, be extremely careful out there. There a number of dedicated gun forums where the members are extremely knowledgeable. Before spending big bucks, go make sure you are not being scammed. Besides Calguns, I like the following sites for specific knowledge:

Lugers:
www.lugerforum.com
Jan still's luger forum: http://luger.gunboards.com/

P38 and PPK:
www.p38forum.com

1911:
www.1911forum.com
www.m1911.org
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  #36  
Old 12-19-2011, 9:35 AM
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thats way cool. I learned something new today. Take care of it.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:29 AM
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Great post and pics! Thanks for sharing.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:31 AM
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I wonder if that slide stop that someone linked too would fit most 1911's. I'm thinking about a RIA down the road if not a SA and wouldn't mind trying it out, love how its located on the pistol.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturnovik View Post
I wonder if that slide stop that someone linked too would fit most 1911's. I'm thinking about a RIA down the road if not a SA and wouldn't mind trying it out, love how its located on the pistol.
It should fit, as the post and slide stop are identical to a normal 1911 slide stop lever. The only thing you would have to do is to take a notch out of the grips to account for the lower portion of the lever (see the pic to see the notch in the grips).

In fact, this slide stop lever designed was specifically mentioned in the book "1911 The First 100 Years" by Patrick Sweeney.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Sweeney - 1911 The First 100 Years Book
In 1914 the Norwegians adopted the 1911 pistol -- but with a change. They decided they wanted a slide stop lever that was a bit more ergonomic, so they came up with this. If you'd had a boxcar full of those slides tops in 1979, you could have sold them to IPSC shooters for a decade.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beetle View Post
It should fit, as the post and slide stop are identical to a normal 1911 slide stop lever. The only thing you would have to do is to take a notch out of the grips to account for the lower portion of the lever (see the pic to see the notch in the grips).

In fact, this slide stop lever designed was specifically mentioned in the book "1911 The First 100 Years" by Patrick Sweeney.
Good to hear! I like the slide stop that way, I may just buy 2-3 of them for down the road. I'm sure the Gf would like that more than the current slide lock on the 1911.
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