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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 12-13-2011, 8:04 PM
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Default Calling All AK Afficianados...

I will soon be the owner of an Arsenal 23-61 AK. Although I own about 30 firearms, I have never owned or fired an AK. Id like to put a Tapco G2 trigger in it, but I dont know the difference between a single or double hook trigger. If anyone would be kind enough to explain the differences I would appreciate it.

Also, if anyone could recommend what you usually lube them with, and any quirks they might have or tips you may have would be great also.. Thanks
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  #2  
Old 12-13-2011, 8:12 PM
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I havent even used lube on my Arsenal. In fact, I have cleaned it probably once since I got it and 0 misfires or any sort of problems, around 1000 rounds through it aswell. Enjoy your rifle. That's the beauty of AKs.
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Old 12-13-2011, 8:13 PM
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Single hook will work with just about everything, double hook only on recievers that are cut that way.


as for lube...just about anything works. I like a spot of grease on the rails, and lube in the trigger group.
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  #4  
Old 12-13-2011, 8:13 PM
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I find 5w30 penzoil to work well with AKs that I have fired.
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  #5  
Old 12-13-2011, 8:26 PM
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thanks all... I appreciate the quick responses...
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  #6  
Old 12-13-2011, 8:36 PM
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When it comes to cleaning your AK, don't sweat it.

After shooting corrosive ammo, I clean mine with only windex, WD-40, and napkins and it runs like a champ, an Arsenal SGL-20.
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My wife sleeps better knowing we have a zombie killer... Saiga AK47! Although my neighbor with his AR has restless nights.
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  #7  
Old 12-13-2011, 9:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter View Post
When it comes to cleaning your AK, don't sweat it.

After shooting corrosive ammo, I clean mine with only windex, WD-40, and napkins and it runs like a champ, an Arsenal SGL-20.
thats funny... Id better use my regular cleaning supplies. if I grab the wifes windex and napkins Ill catch hell. how do you like your Arsenal?
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Old 12-13-2011, 9:09 PM
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Since it has a US-made fcg, perhaps it is already Tapco....

"Item# California Legal Arsenal AK47 23-61
Brand: Arsenal Inc.

Saiga rifle, 7.62x39 caliber, California compliant, US made black polymer furniture, Warsaw Pact length buttstock, compensator,chrome lined hammer forged barrel, 10-round US made magazine, detachable magazine, tool for magazine, 16" barrel, front sight block with bayonet lug, accessory lug, 24x1.5mm right-hand threads, stainless steel heatshield, US made double stage fire control group, 1000m rear sight, cleaning rod, scope rail"
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  #9  
Old 12-13-2011, 9:09 PM
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SGL23's use single hook triggers.
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  #10  
Old 12-13-2011, 9:13 PM
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Use white lithium grease to lube your bolt & carrier rails:



Oil splatters all over and it ain't worth a d**** in COLD weather...
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  #11  
Old 12-13-2011, 9:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamluke View Post
Use white lithium grease to lube your bolt & carrier rails:



Oil splatters all over and it ain't worth a d**** in COLD weather...
Depends on the type you are using. Slip 2000 EWL works great in all weather. Either way I only use it on the trigger group.
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  #12  
Old 12-13-2011, 9:18 PM
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Originally Posted by madjack956 View Post
thats funny... Id better use my regular cleaning supplies. if I grab the wifes windex and napkins Ill catch hell. how do you like your Arsenal?
Hahaha, I'm glad I'm not married yet. Now, try not to laugh too hard, here is a picture of it:



It has no "pistol grip," (nor folding/telescoping stock, nor flash hider) so I can use "high capacity" magazines such as the drum magazine you see there, and the SGL-20 is amazing, always a crowd pleaser, when they shoot it, not the way it looks!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeep7081
My wife sleeps better knowing we have a zombie killer... Saiga AK47! Although my neighbor with his AR has restless nights.
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Thank god the Federal Government is there to protect us from the Federal Government
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  #13  
Old 12-13-2011, 9:22 PM
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wow! how many rounds in the drum?
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  #14  
Old 12-13-2011, 9:27 PM
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75 round drum, pre-ban Romanian, wind-up reload. My one and only...



It's exactly the same kind as here:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MAG032-1.html
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My wife sleeps better knowing we have a zombie killer... Saiga AK47! Although my neighbor with his AR has restless nights.
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Thank god the Federal Government is there to protect us from the Federal Government
WTS: Revision 'Desert Locust' tactical Ballistic/Protective eyewear goggles NEW & USED pairs
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=737563
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  #15  
Old 12-13-2011, 9:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Mamluke View Post
Use white lithium grease to lube your bolt & carrier rails:



Oil splatters all over and it ain't worth a d**** in COLD weather...
Mamluke, thanks so much for the lube video. It was so helpful seeing it done like that...
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  #16  
Old 12-13-2011, 9:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter View Post
75 round drum, pre-ban Romanian, wind-up reload. My one and only...



It's exactly the same kind as here:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MAG032-1.html
is that the Mako rail?
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  #17  
Old 12-13-2011, 9:46 PM
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zfields,

Yes it is. I did not install that there, it came with the gun, if I had alternate furniture I would have replaced it. But at least I can put a VFG on it once I get one, handling the rifle with a featureless grip wrap over the PG lends to holding the rifle in a position in which holding the handguards while shooting is awkward for the left hand.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeep7081
My wife sleeps better knowing we have a zombie killer... Saiga AK47! Although my neighbor with his AR has restless nights.
Quote:
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Thank god the Federal Government is there to protect us from the Federal Government
WTS: Revision 'Desert Locust' tactical Ballistic/Protective eyewear goggles NEW & USED pairs
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=737563
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  #18  
Old 12-13-2011, 9:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter View Post
zfields,

Yes it is. I did not install that there, it came with the gun, if I had alternate furniture I would have replaced it. But at least I can put a VFG on it once I get one, handling the rifle with a featureless grip wrap over the PG lends to holding the rifle in a position in which holding the handguards while shooting is awkward for the left hand.
Yea I was running a longer tapco rail on mine when i was featureless. Helped out a lot, also considering it was a 20" barrel. Just be aware adding a VFG will make the rifle " featured " again.

You may want to take a peak at the MI Extended rail that just came out, extends all the way to the gasblock.

Was just curious, you don't see many of them out there it seems.
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  #19  
Old 12-13-2011, 9:55 PM
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Yes, the MAKO rail is rigid and plastic, but no complaints, despite being fugly and ungodly looking on an AK-47 (lol), it is durable and works to fit "tactical" needs.

This AK is my beater and shooter, so I don't care how it looks, hence the tape over the kydex grip wrap on the pistol grip

MI aluminum rail handguards is an excellent choice. The price is up there, but it's quality.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeep7081
My wife sleeps better knowing we have a zombie killer... Saiga AK47! Although my neighbor with his AR has restless nights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AleksandreCz View Post
Thank god the Federal Government is there to protect us from the Federal Government
WTS: Revision 'Desert Locust' tactical Ballistic/Protective eyewear goggles NEW & USED pairs
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=737563
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  #20  
Old 12-13-2011, 9:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter View Post
Yes, the MAKO rail is rigid and plastic, but no complaints, despite being fugly and ungodly looking on an AK-47 (lol), it is durable and works to fit "tactical" needs.

This AK is my beater and shooter, so I don't care how it looks, hence the tape over the kydex grip wrap on the pistol grip

MI aluminum rail handguards is an excellent choice. The price is up there, but it's quality.
Eh 165 for a full US made rail, and a co-witness mount isn't that bad. Im considering picking one up with the 30mm tube mount. Considering the price of a ultimak is 90ish, really makes it seem much more reasonable.

Im still up in the air, going to be either rebuilding, or building another Saiga here soon, not sure if I want to go traditional poly forend with a ultimak and a tantal folder, or tacticool.



Any I hear ya, my AK while in CA wasnt/still isnt pretty, but it shoots good, and I modified the grip wrap to have a thumb rest to make it work for me.
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  #21  
Old 12-13-2011, 9:58 PM
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Thanks for all the replies everyone, you've all been very helpful. Up until tonight I have been uncharacteristically calm about getting my new rifle. Even the wife commented today about my subdued demeanor. But tonight it hit me like a brick. Im all fidgety and got butterflies and cant stop surfing websites looking at AK pics and reading reviews and checking out accessories and buying ammo for it. Its good to feel like this again.
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Old 12-13-2011, 10:00 PM
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Thanks for all the replies everyone, you've all been very helpful. Up until tonight I have been uncharacteristically calm about getting my new rifle. Even the wife commented today about my subdued demeanor. But tonight it hit me like a brick. Im all fidgety and got butterflies and cant stop surfing websites looking at AK pics and reading reviews and checking out accessories and buying ammo for it. Its good to feel like this again.
Good luck. its a sickening disease.
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  #23  
Old 12-13-2011, 10:18 PM
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Um, vertical forward grip is a feature so you'll have to lose the drum and add a mag lock to add one...
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  #24  
Old 12-13-2011, 10:27 PM
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Um, vertical forward grip is a feature so you'll have to lose the drum and add a mag lock to add one...
I call FUD.

Penal Code 12276.1 (a)
Does the rifle have any of these features:
  • Pistol grip
  • Forward pistol grip
  • Flash suppressor
  • Folding, collapsable stock
  • Thumbhole stock
  • Grenade, Flare launcher


I don't see vertical foregrips listed as a "feature." Also, VFG's are not "forward pistol grips."

EDIT: I no longer advocate this statement nor idea. Too precarious to apply logic to CA gun laws.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeep7081
My wife sleeps better knowing we have a zombie killer... Saiga AK47! Although my neighbor with his AR has restless nights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AleksandreCz View Post
Thank god the Federal Government is there to protect us from the Federal Government
WTS: Revision 'Desert Locust' tactical Ballistic/Protective eyewear goggles NEW & USED pairs
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=737563

Last edited by Cali-Shooter; 12-14-2011 at 8:31 AM..
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  #25  
Old 12-13-2011, 10:30 PM
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congrats, you'll have fun with her!
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Old 12-13-2011, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter View Post
I don't see vertical foregrips listed as a "feature." Also, VFG's are not "forward pistol grips."
If you say so...
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Old 12-13-2011, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter View Post
I call FUD.

Penal Code 12276.1 (a)
Does the rifle have any of these features:
  • Pistol grip
  • Forward pistol grip
  • Flash suppressor
  • Folding, collapsable stock
  • Thumbhole stock
  • Grenade, Flare launcher


I don't see vertical foregrips listed as a "feature." Also, VFG's are not "forward pistol grips."
what is a Forward pistol grip then if a "VFG" is not one
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Old 12-13-2011, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter View Post
I call FUD.

Penal Code 12276.1 (a)
Does the rifle have any of these features:
  • Pistol grip
  • Forward pistol grip
  • Flash suppressor
  • Folding, collapsable stock
  • Thumbhole stock
  • Grenade, Flare launcher


I don't see vertical foregrips listed as a "feature." Also, VFG's are not "forward pistol grips."
Try having an otherwise featureless AR with a VFG and no bulletbutton and see what the prosecuting DA thinks. I doubt when they said forward pistol grip that they were thinking of only AMD-65s...
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  #29  
Old 12-13-2011, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeepers View Post
what is a Forward pistol grip then if a "VFG" is not one
This gun has one:

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeep7081
My wife sleeps better knowing we have a zombie killer... Saiga AK47! Although my neighbor with his AR has restless nights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AleksandreCz View Post
Thank god the Federal Government is there to protect us from the Federal Government
WTS: Revision 'Desert Locust' tactical Ballistic/Protective eyewear goggles NEW & USED pairs
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=737563
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Old 12-13-2011, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by safewaysecurity View Post
Try having an otherwise featureless AR with a VFG and no bulletbutton and see what the prosecuting DA thinks. I doubt when they said forward pistol grip that they were thinking of only AMD-65s...
I do admit, this is definitely a risky endeavor, given our prosecution-happy DA's and otherwise LEO's or police chiefs that may interpret the law "their own way" given poor wording of the AWB laws.

Not recommended for anyone to do this unless they don't mind duking it out in court if it leads to an attempt to charge someone doing it for AW violations.

I say this because it's painfully obvious CA laws have no logic whatsoever, so one cannot assume logic and expect the legal system (esp. regarding firearms) to do the same.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeep7081
My wife sleeps better knowing we have a zombie killer... Saiga AK47! Although my neighbor with his AR has restless nights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AleksandreCz View Post
Thank god the Federal Government is there to protect us from the Federal Government
WTS: Revision 'Desert Locust' tactical Ballistic/Protective eyewear goggles NEW & USED pairs
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=737563
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  #31  
Old 12-13-2011, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter View Post
I call FUD.

Penal Code 12276.1 (a)
Does the rifle have any of these features:
  • Pistol grip
  • Forward pistol grip
  • Flash suppressor
  • Folding, collapsable stock
  • Thumbhole stock
  • Grenade, Flare launcher


I don't see vertical foregrips listed as a "feature." Also, VFG's are not "forward pistol grips."
Are you confusing an "AFG" with a "VFG"?

Even if you are, there is a problem.

ATF has said that "AFGs" are not vertical forward grips for the purpose of a pistol AOW. What you are talking about is California "assault weapon" law.

CADOJ doesn't care what ATF thinks about "AFGs", just like they don't care about how ATF measures rifles with folding stocks when the stock is open to determine SBR status but CA measures rifles with the stock folded to determine if you meet the 30" overall length requirement for semi-auto centerfire rifles.

An "AFG" might get you in trouble if your district attorney decides they want to get a conviction and even if you don't lose your case, it will be very expensive.

It's not worth it. It's not FUD.
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  #32  
Old 12-13-2011, 11:48 PM
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wow ok what makes the pistol grip on your rifle "featureless" ?

a grip wrap that prevents your hand to wrap around it like a pistol, what make you think any grip forward of your trigger hand that can be grip in a "pistol grip" manner is not going to land you in hot water with most any D.A.? lawyer fees get spendy quick and dont think you will find any one to defend this logic for free ....
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Old 12-13-2011, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by wash View Post
Are you confusing an "AFG" with a "VFG"?

Even if you are, there is a problem.

ATF has said that "AFGs" are not vertical forward grips for the purpose of a pistol AOW. What you are talking about is California "assault weapon" law.

CADOJ doesn't care what ATF thinks about "AFGs", just like they don't care about how ATF measures rifles with folding stocks when the stock is open to determine SBR status but CA measures rifles with the stock folded to determine if you meet the 30" overall length requirement for semi-auto centerfire rifles.

An "AFG" might get you in trouble if your district attorney decides they want to get a conviction and even if you don't lose your case, it will be very expensive.

It's not worth it. It's not FUD.
Ok then, please elaborate. What exactly is an "AFG," and what is a "VFG," and how are they different from one another?

A "VFG" is, in my mind, one of these:

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Old 12-13-2011, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter View Post
This gun has one:

Your legal interpretation is wrong. That gun has a "pistol grip", not a "forward pistol grip"
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Old 12-13-2011, 11:52 PM
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Old 12-13-2011, 11:56 PM
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Ok, you folks got me convinced. AFG/VFG is a no-go for featureless.

EDIT: added "VFG."
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Last edited by Cali-Shooter; 12-14-2011 at 12:02 AM..
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Old 12-13-2011, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter View Post
Ok then, please elaborate. What exactly is an "AFG," and what is a "VFG," and how are they different from one another?

A "VFG" is, in my mind, one of these:

Look up Magpul AFG.

ATF tech branch has written letters stating that an AFG does not turn a pistol in to a pistol AOW like a VFG would.

Some people confuse that with it somehow being CA legal on featureless rifles.

The real answer is maybe or maybe not.

Your confusion is a bit more profound. VFG=Forward Pistol Grip.

You could lose your gun rights over that one.

Hopefully the situation will improve because CGF has an "assault weapon" lawsuit and the argument is that CA law is unconstitutionally vague. This might make certain features OK but a few might survive.
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Old 12-14-2011, 5:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter View Post
I call FUD.

Penal Code 12276.1 (a)
Does the rifle have any of these features:
  • Pistol grip
  • Forward pistol grip
  • Flash suppressor
  • Folding, collapsable stock
  • Thumbhole stock
  • Grenade, Flare launcher


I don't see vertical foregrips listed as a "feature." Also, VFG's are not "forward pistol grips."
Please educate yourself before doing this, because you are very wrong on it.

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Old 12-14-2011, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by madjack956 View Post
I will soon be the owner of an Arsenal 23-61 AK. Although I own about 30 firearms, I have never owned or fired an AK. Id like to put a Tapco G2 trigger in it, but I dont know the difference between a single or double hook trigger. If anyone would be kind enough to explain the differences I would appreciate it.

Also, if anyone could recommend what you usually lube them with, and any quirks they might have or tips you may have would be great also.. Thanks
Determine if you need a new trigger group before you buy one, they tend to smooth out well with use. A new G2 won't be any better until it smooths out.

White lithium grease stays put where oil tends to roll off on the rails, bolt carrier and so on. Oil the bolt, the fire control group and the recoil springs to reduce recoil. I'm playing with a few dry lubricants that contain PTFE and molybdenum disulphide that may replace my use of oil depending on the results.

Keep oil and grease out of the chamber and breachface area (unless done deliberately for long term storage) and at no time oil or grease the gas system: gas block, gas tube and gas piston. It will only result in carbon deposits, there are no surfaces that require it anyway.

Good luck,

R
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Old 12-14-2011, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Cali-Shooter View Post
Ok, you folks got me convinced. AFG/VFG is a no-go for featureless.

EDIT: added "VFG."
Wrong again. I do believe AFGs are permitted on featurless builds because they are not a pistol grip. A pistol grip is considered a grip you can wrap your hand or thumb around.
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