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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 03-05-2007, 5:51 PM
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Default DOJ reply to residency question

I had an issue with Turners refusal to accept my Z card(Merchant Mariners card) as a second form of ID, which is issued by the federal government and requires a background check. I posed the question about a month and a half ago. The ID contains everything on a drivers license and my SS#.
I find it interesting that a personal contract with your spouse is also acceptable.
Poor Turners just can't seem to do anything right.

Dear Mr. =======:

In regard to your e-mail inquiry, as long as the Z card contains all of the following, it would be an acceptable form of proof of residency:

"A current, government-issued (city, county, special district, state, or federal) license, permit, or registration, other than a California Driver License or California Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:

A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form.
B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto."

Another form of proof of residency you could do is have your wife write up a contract/agreement stating that you live with her (it would have to include your name and the address would have to match the address on your ID or DROS form).

Should you have any further questions, you may contact the Bureau of Firearms at (916) 263-4887.

Sincerely,

Leslie McGovern, Analyst
Bureau of Firearms

Last edited by tankerman; 03-05-2007 at 6:26 PM..
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  #2  
Old 03-05-2007, 8:16 PM
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It's obvious from their reply they don't ( she doesn't ) know what a 'Z' card is. She couldn't be bothered to find out whether a 'Z' card has any validity.
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  #3  
Old 03-05-2007, 8:45 PM
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This is exactly why I use my CDL as ID and my CCW to back it up (and get past the need for a HSC).

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Old 03-05-2007, 9:35 PM
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I can see it now,

we need a note from our wives stating that we live with her and that, yes we have permission to buy a gun.

I already talked to my wife and she said I need to build her a bookcase first....


I love this country!
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  #5  
Old 03-05-2007, 9:54 PM
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Does this mean if one does not have residency they are not empowered to purchase a firearm ?

Isn't this a violation of our constitutional rights as an American citizen ?

Just for S & G (no I'm not talking about the lock on your safe) if a homeless person wants to purchase a pistol and they don't have a frickin phone bill as they don't have a home to have a phone or other utility in. or a License or ID card with a residence address on it they cannot purchase a pistol ?
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Old 03-05-2007, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SemiAutoSam View Post
Does this mean if one does not have residency they are not empowered to purchase a firearm ?

Isn't this a violation of our constitutional rights as an American citizen ?

Just for S & G (no I'm not talking about the lock on your safe) if a homeless person wants to purchase a pistol and they don't have a frickin phone bill as they don't have a home to have a phone or other utility in. or a License or ID card with a residence address on it they cannot purchase a pistol ?
Nope, in this country you only have as many rights as you can afford
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  #7  
Old 03-05-2007, 10:47 PM
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I once showed an FFL the DOJ study booklet to get them to take my residential lease agreement.
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  #8  
Old 03-05-2007, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankee Clipper View Post
It's obvious from their reply they don't ( she doesn't ) know what a 'Z' card is. She couldn't be bothered to find out whether a 'Z' card has any validity.
Every federal government agency has their own ID card. It isn't a surprise that she wouldn't know what it is. The wording of the law has 3 general requirements. 1. Have a period that it is valid 2. Expiration date. 3. Your address. It's the morons at Turners that don't understand this. They're the ones who should understand the law. That's if they want your business that is.
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  #9  
Old 03-06-2007, 4:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SemiAutoSam View Post
Does this mean if one does not have residency they are not empowered to purchase a firearm ?

Isn't this a violation of our constitutional rights as an American citizen ?

Just for S & G (no I'm not talking about the lock on your safe) if a homeless person wants to purchase a pistol and they don't have a frickin phone bill as they don't have a home to have a phone or other utility in. or a License or ID card with a residence address on it they cannot purchase a pistol ?
Get arrested for a minor offense then take your release papers with the county jail address.

The reason I was trying to use my Z card at Turners (everywhere else I have purchased a gun has accepted the ID) is that when you go to sea it makes no sense for me to put our utility bills in my name, if there is an issue my wife is a stay at home mom and more likely than not would be handling the problem and both of our cars are in her name.
What gets me is that they looked at the ID and saw that it was issued by a federal agency and it had my SS#, address same as my DL , my picture and an expiration date.
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  #10  
Old 03-06-2007, 8:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SemiAutoSam View Post
Does this mean if one does not have residency they are not empowered to purchase a firearm ?

Isn't this a violation of our constitutional rights as an American citizen ?

Just for S & G (no I'm not talking about the lock on your safe) if a homeless person wants to purchase a pistol and they don't have a frickin phone bill as they don't have a home to have a phone or other utility in. or a License or ID card with a residence address on it they cannot purchase a pistol ?
Or another scenario, victim of domestic violence hiding from a spouse who's trying to kill her. The domestic violence counselors will tell her not to have anything in her name or her residence on her license. How does she prove where she lives?

To answer my own question: she has someone draw up a month to month rental agreement with her "residence" on it and shows that as id. The gunstore will take that.

The fact that the spirit of the law says she really shouldn't be able to prove her residency if she is hiding out, yet can come up with a legal solution to satisfiy the letter of the law proves how stupid this law is.
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  #11  
Old 03-06-2007, 9:28 AM
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Our vehicles are registered in my wife's name, all of our utilities are included with rent (so bills are in landlord's name). I have to dig out a copy of the lease whenever I try to buy a handgun...suppose I could just get a permission slip from the wife (she is a teacher, after all.)
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  #12  
Old 03-06-2007, 10:36 AM
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Deja Vu x 1000

Quote:
Originally Posted by tankerman View Post
Another form of proof of residency you could do is have your wife write up a contract/agreement stating that you live with her (it would have to include your name and the address would have to match the address on your ID or DROS form).
That's a new one to me. Good post!
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  #13  
Old 03-06-2007, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SemiAutoSam View Post
Does this mean if one does not have residency they are not empowered to purchase a firearm ?

Isn't this a violation of our constitutional rights as an American citizen ?
The 9th circus court of appeals governs the Western States:
Ca, Nv, Or, Wa, Id, Mt, Az, Ak, MP, Gu, Hi

The fifth Circuit court of appeals governs the middle states of:
Tx, La, Ms

The 9th circus court of appeals is based out of Sacramento, Ca. That court ruled that the second amendment does NOT apply to the private citizen and deals only with a State's right to organize a militia.

The 5th Circuit court of appeals is based out of Louisiana. That court ruled that the second amendment DOES apply to the private citizen and protects the rights of the people to keep and bear arms.

As it sits right now people in the states governed by the 9th circuit have no second amendment rights. Any one of these states could pass an all out gun ban and it would be held as constitutional.

People in states governed by the 5th circuit DO have second amendment rights and if one of these states passed an all out gun ban it would be un-enforceable because the court has already ruled that to be unconstitutional.

The only court higher than these two courts is the US Supreme Court. The decisions in the respective courts are only binding in the states within that district. Certain constitutional rights are affirmed in some states and denied in others. The only way for this to go away is for the US Supreme Court to break an 80 year trend not to make decisive decisions on the second amendment. Until that day occurs federal constitutional rights are different depending on which state you are currently residing.
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  #14  
Old 03-06-2007, 2:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum View Post
As it sits right now people in the states governed by the 9th circuit have no second amendment rights. Any one of these states could pass an all out gun ban and it would be held as constitutional..

Nope; it might pass but would most likely get a fast-pass straight to the top court; THEY are the only one's to determine contitionality.........
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  #15  
Old 03-06-2007, 2:49 PM
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Alan Gottlieb is looking into how the resident requirements denies the rights of those without a fixed residence (snow birds for example).

On his web page is shown a fight for ex-pats to be able to buy defensive weapons and not just sporting firearms when visiting the USA.
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  #16  
Old 03-06-2007, 4:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nothing4u View Post
Every federal government agency has their own ID card. It isn't a surprise that she wouldn't know what it is. The wording of the law has 3 general requirements. 1. Have a period that it is valid 2. Expiration date. 3. Your address. It's the morons at Turners that don't understand this. They're the ones who should understand the law. That's if they want your business that is.
The "morons at Turners" could face prison sentences for accepting what turns out to be some kind of fake ID. I've never seen a "Z card" before, either, and I'd rather send you packing than take some bizarro ID that you might have just printed up 15 minutes earlier.

The fault here lies with California lawmakers and their reidiculous laws, not regular people who stand to lose their lives and livelyhood if they forget to dot an i or cross a t.
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  #17  
Old 03-06-2007, 6:06 PM
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  #18  
Old 03-06-2007, 6:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnojr View Post
The "morons at Turners" could face prison sentences for accepting what turns out to be some kind of fake ID. I've never seen a "Z card" before, either, and I'd rather send you packing than take some bizarro ID that you might have just printed up 15 minutes earlier.

The fault here lies with California lawmakers and their reidiculous laws, not regular people who stand to lose their lives and livelyhood if they forget to dot an i or cross a t.
a "Z" card is a federally issued ID that is certainly more difficult to get than a DL. The ID card shows which federal agency issued it, and is not laminated at the local carwash. Sorry to hear that the ID issued to the Merchant Marines isn't up to snuff for you. Obviously it is for the DOJ.
My ID is good enough to allow me transport enough gasoline to fill 500,000 automobiles at a time but not good enough for you.

I will pass on to my coworkers that they should stop carrying bizarro ID, I am sure that a couple of hundred thousand Merchant Mariners will be happy to hear your opinion. Where do you work? I would be happy to stop by the Union hall and grab a few dozen members to come picket your shop.
If you are so worried about fake ID then get a the book that 'splains it to you, Bouncers at bar have them, you sell guns and don't? That's not real smart. But, I guess it's easier to "send me packing". You're a real tribute to the Turners style of business.
According to your line of thinking then I am Sh-t out of luck when it comes to buying a firearm because of the line of work I am in, wow, are you sure you're on the same team as the rest of us.
I own several dozen firearms and Turners is the only place I have had this issue. But I guess you are just more intelligent then the rest.
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  #19  
Old 03-06-2007, 7:37 PM
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I've found there is nothing at Turners that I can't drive a hundred miles out of my way to purchase someplace else.....
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Old 03-06-2007, 8:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tankerman View Post
Bureau of Firearms at (916) 263-4887.

Sincerely,

Leslie McGovern, Analyst
Bureau of Firearms
what the heck is bureau of firearms? ATF?
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Old 03-06-2007, 10:40 PM
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what the heck is bureau of firearms? ATF?
The Firearms Division has become a bureau. Just a re-org.
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Old 03-06-2007, 10:56 PM
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Just a re-org.

Say whaaaaaa?I think I missed the memo; Cliff notes version please....its late
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Old 03-06-2007, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by metalhead357 View Post
Say whaaaaaa?I think I missed the memo; Cliff notes version please....its late
Firearms-related letters coming from AG/DOJ channel now say "Bureau of Firearms".

Apparently Firearms has been moved into Law Enforcement division, and is now at the same level as Gambling bureau, etc.

It's no use speculating about staffing/personalities until new fiscal year kicks in in a month or so.
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  #24  
Old 03-06-2007, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metalhead357 View Post
Nope; it might pass but would most likely get a fast-pass straight to the top court; THEY are the only one's to determine contitionality.........
Contitionality is not the concern... constitutionality is...

The US Supreme court is not the only court that can interpret the constitution. A lower court can (and does) interpret the constitution where the SCOTUS has not previously ruled. Where the SCOTUS is concerned they are LIMITED to ONLY interpreting constitutionality where a lower court can overturn a ruling based on any error of law not just constitutionality. This difference does not however prevent a lower court from using the federal constitution to affirm or overturn a judgement.

Your homework for tonight: http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1051121848326
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Old 03-07-2007, 1:37 AM
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Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum View Post
The 9th circus court of appeals is based out of Sacramento, Ca. That court ruled that the second amendment does NOT apply to the private citizen and deals only with a State's right to organize a militia.
The 9th is actually based in San Francisco. This helps to explain why it is so liberal.

It is well past time to break up the jurisdiction by creating a 12th circuit, IMO.
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  #26  
Old 03-07-2007, 4:23 AM
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Originally Posted by stator View Post
The 9th is actually based in San Francisco. This helps to explain why it is so liberal.

It is well past time to break up the jurisdiction by creating a 12th circuit, IMO.
Its been talked about for so long, when is going to get done. I think it is more important to get rid of lifetime appointments to the bench.
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  #27  
Old 03-07-2007, 5:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum View Post
Contitionality is not the concern... constitutionality is...

Your homework for tonight: http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1051121848326

LOL! Nah. My homework is to practice spellink

((and thank you Bill for the update))
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I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered....
I am not a number! I am a free man

~Molôn Labé!!~

1.)All humanity would be better off if Stoooopid hurt.
2.)Why is it that if guns are sooooo unsafe that you're 9 times more likely to die at the hands of your doctor?
3.)Remember...Buy it cheap & stack it deep
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