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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 12-13-2011, 12:19 AM
MrChoi MrChoi is offline
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Default Carry concealed in california? Lock and carry.

So i was told if i am unable to open carry IE Gun free safe zone, i can place my firearm in a "secure container" and still legally carry. i've been doing so for a short while but i'm starting to have doubts on the legality on it.

to my understanding to transport a firearm in such restricted area the firearm needs to be in a locked container. http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html
the Penal code defines a locked container as "a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device."

from the dictionary definition of secure and container i can use a fanny pack with a small lock.

Now the question, if i am carrying in this manner am i only to carry to transport from A to B or is this a legal means to carry as i go about my daily activity.

i'm sure all of you know here in California open carry will be banned in January 2012 and it is almost impossible to get a CCW.


Thanks for any info.
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  #2  
Old 12-13-2011, 12:27 AM
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Please do some searches for "LUCC" both this site and google in general. You'll get plenty of hits on how to be legal in CA....
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  #3  
Old 12-13-2011, 12:52 AM
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Does LUCC mean locked unloaded conceal carry?
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Old 12-13-2011, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrChoi View Post
Does LUCC mean locked unloaded conceal carry?
Yes, and there is a ton of material on the topic.
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Old 12-13-2011, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
Yes, and there is a ton of material on the topic.
ok sorry.
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Old 12-13-2011, 1:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrChoi View Post
ok sorry.
I was just answering the question, not trying to sound like an ***. But yes, there is a ton of research you can do simply by knowing what "LUCC" means now.
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Old 12-13-2011, 5:09 AM
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I think, that even with all the LUCC discussions that have gone on, we still don't have a consensus of when you can do it. I like to hop on MUNI and take it to downtown SF of Fishermans Wharf, and hang out for the day. Would it be legal for me to have my Ruger SP101in a lcked case in my backpack while I wander throughout the city? I think LUCC is only GTG when you are transporting your firearm in a vehicle, but I don't think I've seen anything definitive in any of the discussions that have gone on.
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Old 12-13-2011, 5:22 AM
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Before I got my Sac LTC, I used to LUCC. I'm responsible for my family. When we have done road trips within the state, I definitely carried in the water containment area of my Maxpedition gear. It worked out just fine because my camera equipment was in the major area (as well as a few diapers etc). The part that would/could get me in trouble is the section/interpretation of "directly". I interpreted it VERY loosely because of two things. 1) It does no use to me in my car; 2) My car is a potential target for car-jacking. Do I want the added firearm lost (probably to be used by the perp in future crimes and/or murder) on my conscience? THAT justifies it right there (in my eyes). I don't like leaving my firearm in my vehicle when travelling. It is always somewhat going directly to and from my vehicle (and always on/with me).

Quote:
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.


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  #9  
Old 12-13-2011, 5:39 AM
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Day Planner + travel Lock + Glock 17 + Loaded magazines Not inserted in Glock = Legal to carry. It sits in my briefcase all day long. Why I do not just keep it in my briefcase...cuz my briefcase is opened all the time while sitting at a coffee shop.
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Old 12-13-2011, 7:42 AM
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again, this has probably been covered a million times, and while I can't find it personally, isn't there some statute about only LUCC while on the way to or back from a shooting range?
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  #11  
Old 12-13-2011, 7:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrChoi View Post
Does LUCC mean locked unloaded conceal carry?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc1138 View Post
Yes, and there is a ton of material on the topic.
Sorry to interject, but I would say that LUCC is more accurately described as Locked Unloaded Cased Carry... I make this distinction since a secure locked case is an exemption to concealed carry...and the only way you can legally carry concealed in California is with a license to do so or under any of the exemptions that change the character of the act.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mofugly13 View Post
I think, that even with all the LUCC discussions that have gone on, we still don't have a consensus of when you can do it. I like to hop on MUNI and take it to downtown SF of Fishermans Wharf, and hang out for the day. Would it be legal for me to have my Ruger SP101in a lcked case in my backpack while I wander throughout the city? I think LUCC is only GTG when you are transporting your firearm in a vehicle, but I don't think I've seen anything definitive in any of the discussions that have gone on.
Actually, the exemption (in 12026.1) indicates directly to or directly from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose. You went directly to the MUNI, transported to Fisherman's Wharf to eat clam chowder (a lawful purpose) and back to the MUNI to transport home. Sounds pretty simple to me as long as you dont start babbling to the police during a stop about your 'concealled' handgun and how the lock on the case makes it legal to conceal.
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Last edited by CitaDeL; 12-13-2011 at 7:51 AM.. Reason: spelling and grammar
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  #12  
Old 12-13-2011, 8:24 AM
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See Penal Codes 12026, 12026.1, and 12026.2.
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  #13  
Old 12-13-2011, 9:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzotzo View Post
again, this has probably been covered a million times, and while I can't find it personally, isn't there some statute about only LUCC while on the way to or back from a shooting range?
Difficult for them to prove you weren't planning on visiting or were at a range. The law doesn't say only straight to and from which would be ridiculous and also hard to prove.
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  #14  
Old 12-13-2011, 9:39 AM
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I use Allen locking soft gun cases to Legally carry my handguns unloaded...
Come in 6", 8", 11" & 13".



http://www.midwayusa.com/product/192...gun-case-nylon
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  #15  
Old 12-13-2011, 9:59 AM
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Am I the only one that does not like the title of this thread?

by following the law, as written, you are not using a "loophole".
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  #16  
Old 12-13-2011, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I open carry View Post
Am I the only one that does not like the title of this thread?

by following the law, as written, you are not using a "loophole".

I hear what you are saying. An LEO I know well told me that most law goes to the "legislative intent" -- meaning there is wiggle room for all. Naturally, authority goes for the wiggle they prefer. Be careful.
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Old 12-16-2011, 6:08 PM
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so if im not a citizen of the US i can only transport to and from my vehicle?
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Old 12-16-2011, 6:57 PM
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MrChoi,
does not mater if resident of CA or not, we are all in the same boat.
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Old 12-16-2011, 7:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrChoi View Post
so if im not a citizen of the US i can only transport to and from my vehicle?
If you are not a citizen you must also carry a hunting license if i am not mistaken. and i may be.
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Old 12-16-2011, 8:51 PM
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did the law really says transportation only applies to range?
how about claiming you went to/about to go to gunsmith?/girlfriend's house/hunting lodges/etc ?
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  #21  
Old 12-16-2011, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugiahua View Post
did the law really says transportation only applies to range?
how about claiming you went to/about to go to gunsmith?/girlfriend's house/hunting lodges/etc ?
Please read the wiki: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transporting
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Old 12-17-2011, 1:57 AM
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just out of curiosity, is it really "practical" to even consider LUCC?

In a scenario that requires a gun for self defense, having a CCW already takes a few second to reach, draw, point, pull the trigger.

if one were to access an unloaded gun in LUCC, wouldnt it take too much time to unlock, open, grab mag and gun, and load them? with the time it takes to perform all the above, wouldnt it be too much time to defend one self?
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Old 12-17-2011, 2:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrChoi View Post
So i was told if i am unable to open carry IE Gun free safe zone, i can place my firearm in a "secure container" and still legally carry. i've been doing so for a short while but i'm starting to have doubts on the legality on it.

to my understanding to transport a firearm in such restricted area the firearm needs to be in a locked container. http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html
the Penal code defines a locked container as "a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device."

from the dictionary definition of secure and container i can use a fanny pack with a small lock.

Now the question, if i am carrying in this manner am i only to carry to transport from A to B or is this a legal means to carry as i go about my daily activity.

i'm sure all of you know here in California open carry will be banned in January 2012 and it is almost impossible to get a CCW.


Thanks for any info.
It's impossible to get a CCW depending on where in CA you live or how close you are to your local sheriff(if you live in Socal or Bay Area that is).
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Old 12-17-2011, 8:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Stunna Lot View Post
just out of curiosity, is it really "practical" to even consider LUCC?

In a scenario that requires a gun for self defense, having a CCW already takes a few second to reach, draw, point, pull the trigger.

if one were to access an unloaded gun in LUCC, wouldnt it take too much time to unlock, open, grab mag and gun, and load them? with the time it takes to perform all the above, wouldnt it be too much time to defend one self?

While it is by far the best form of carry, practice. It will only take 5-6 seconds at the most.
I would rather rely on that few seconds then to not have it at all. You need to practice and learn situational awareness.

when a punk has the drop, even loaded open carry is not fast enough. But when you watch and learn to expect trouble before it starts, that can give you the extra time you need.
Remember, most of the time you will not be the first target the punk is looking at, nor are you the only person they need to watch.
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Old 12-17-2011, 9:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Stunna Lot View Post
just out of curiosity, is it really "practical" to even consider LUCC?

In a scenario that requires a gun for self defense, having a CCW already takes a few second to reach, draw, point, pull the trigger.

if one were to access an unloaded gun in LUCC, wouldnt it take too much time to unlock, open, grab mag and gun, and load them? with the time it takes to perform all the above, wouldnt it be too much time to defend one self?
In a situation where a gunman starts shooting people @ a mall, park, etc... I'd think you would have plenty of time to drop, unlock your container, load, and be ready to defend yourself or others.
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Old 12-17-2011, 9:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Stunna Lot View Post
just out of curiosity, is it really "practical" to even consider LUCC?

In a scenario that requires a gun for self defense, having a CCW already takes a few second to reach, draw, point, pull the trigger.

if one were to access an unloaded gun in LUCC, wouldnt it take too much time to unlock, open, grab mag and gun, and load them? with the time it takes to perform all the above, wouldnt it be too much time to defend one self?
if you had a bio-meteric lock, it would be pretty quick... place finger(s) on pad to open
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  #27  
Old 12-17-2011, 11:15 AM
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i guess it IS an option where CCW isnt possible. but i still dont buy the practically aspect of it, i view its use very to be very similar to UOC.

Even with my CCW, if i see a shooter in a public place... im getting the F out of there!
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Old 12-17-2011, 2:56 PM
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For all those carrying or considering carrying a unloaded gun, locked, and concealed together with loaded magazines for self defense --

[1] Who has formal handgun self defense training, for example at a school like Gunsite or Front Sight, from a well know instructor like Louis Awerbuck, Massad Ayoob, Walt Marshal, Gabe Suarez, or even through one of the NRA Personal Protection classes (e. g., Personal Protection Inside the Home)?

[2] Who has competed in any of the “action pistol” sports -- IDPA, IPSC, Cowboy Action Shooting, Steel Challenge, etc.?

[3] Who has practiced unlocking his gun, drawing his unloaded gun, loading it, making it ready and firing it? Have you practiced doing so at speed? How fast have you been? How accurate? Were you timed? How regularly do you do it? Have you done it under stress?

[4] Who has practiced unlocking his gun, drawing his unloaded gun, loading it and making it ready and doing all that without looking? In low light? While moving? Have you practiced doing so at speed? How fast have you been? Have you then fired? How accurately? How regularly do you do it? Have you done it under stress?

[5] Who has practiced any of this beginning with holding something in his weak hand? His strong hand? Simulating one hand being injured?

[6] Who has actually practiced the physical skills discussed above and then considered objectively what his performance limitations were when beginning with a locked, concealed and unloaded gun? Have you considered what sort of defensive engagement would then be manageable within those performance limitations and how likely such an engagement would be? Have you considered what sort of defensive engagement would be beyond your performance limitations and how likely that sort of defensive engagement would be? Have you considered those matters in relation to the legal standards for the justified use of lethal force?

[7] Who has considered the consequences of being confronted with at defensive engagement beyond your capacity to manage beginning with an unloaded gun? For example, being shot with your own gun? Helping to arm a criminal?

The foregoing questions are not about one's legal right to carry (LUCC). It's about one's understanding of the basic skills involved in defensive pistol-craft. It can be a way for one to assess his knowledge, skill and ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I open carry
...While it is by far the best form of carry, practice. It will only take 5-6 seconds at the most...
Five to six seconds is an eternity in a violent encounter. At Gunsite we're expected to move, draw and fire two rounds hitting center of mass on a turning target at seven yards -- in 1.5 seconds. We're expected to be able to do what they call a Tactical El Presidente in five seconds. (The “Tactical El Presidente.” This involves facing up range, with a loaded and holstered weapon, from three targets at a distance of 10 yards. On the signal, the shooter turns, presents his weapon, engages two targets with one round each, the third target with two rounds, and then re-engages the first two targets with one more round each.)
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Old 12-17-2011, 4:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
The foregoing questions are not about one's legal right to carry (LUCC). It's about one's understanding of the basic skills involved in defensive pistol-craft. It can be a way for one to assess his knowledge, skill and ability.
While there is no such thing as too much training some people do not have the time, momey, or inclination to spend considerable time training. Aside from understanding the law there is little that one should truly feel obligated to do before choosing to carry.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
Five to six seconds is an eternity in a violent encounter. At Gunsite we're expected to move, draw and fire two rounds hitting center of mass on a turning target at seven yards -- in 1.5 seconds. We're expected to be able to do what they call a Tactical El Presidente in five seconds. (The “Tactical El Presidente.” This involves facing up range, with a loaded and holstered weapon, from three targets at a distance of 10 yards. On the signal, the shooter turns, presents his weapon, engages two targets with one round each, the third target with two rounds, and then re-engages the first two targets with one more round each.)
And if one is presented with such an incident while LUCCing by all means keep your powder dry. But there are infinite potential scenarios and it is far better to be prepared for the ones which your training and the law permits.
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Old 12-17-2011, 6:20 PM
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
While there is no such thing as too much training some people do not have the time, momey, or inclination to spend considerable time training. Aside from understanding the law there is little that one should truly feel obligated to do before choosing to carry....
How much time, expense and effort to devote to training is, of course, up to the individual. It canl depend, at least in part, on his personal view of what he may need to be able to do to believe himself to be competent. But that can't change the fundamental reality --
  • If we wind up in a violent confrontation, we can't know ahead of time what will happen and how it will happen. And thus we can't know ahead of time what we will need to be able to do to solve our problem or how much or little time we will have in which to solve it.

  • If we find ourselves in a violent confrontation, we will respond with whatever skills we have available at the time. Those skills might be good enough. On the other hand, those skills might not be good enough. If our skills at the time are not up to the task with which we are faced, or if we don't have enough time to do what we need to do, we will not be happy with the outcome.

  • The more we can do, and the better we can do it, the more likely we'll be to be able to respond appropriately and effectively. The more we can do, and the better we can do it, the luckier we'll be.
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Old 12-17-2011, 6:28 PM
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I hate the legislature so much. There is no rational reason that this thread should be necessary. At least McGuinness settled, or not even Sacramento residents would be able to carry firearms.
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Old 12-17-2011, 7:39 PM
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So it's your opinion that a person should not carry a gun unless they have had many hours of training? Should the same person also have many hours of training to possess a gun in the home? The same situations may arise. Only problem with your point of view is that it is patently false, and firearms are used by untrained people every day to protect or save lives. If you can somehow refute the statistics about firearms and crime prevention, please do.

Some people can't spend the time to train for every situation, guns are tremendously easy to use. Point and shoot. In the case of someone carrying LUCC, they are already far ahead of the curve in the use of firearms just based on their knowledge of the laws involved.

Many people take the time to learn, and many more don't. I'll never try to convince someone that wishes to carry a gun for their safety and personal protection to not do so. That's a basic part of the Right.




Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
How much time, expense and effort to devote to training is, of course, up to the individual. It canl depend, at least in part, on his personal view of what he may need to be able to do to believe himself to be competent. But that can't change the fundamental reality --
  • If we wind up in a violent confrontation, we can't know ahead of time what will happen and how it will happen. And thus we can't know ahead of time what we will need to be able to do to solve our problem or how much or little time we will have in which to solve it.

  • If we find ourselves in a violent confrontation, we will respond with whatever skills we have available at the time. Those skills might be good enough. On the other hand, those skills might not be good enough. If our skills at the time are not up to the task with which we are faced, or if we don't have enough time to do what we need to do, we will not be happy with the outcome.

  • The more we can do, and the better we can do it, the more likely we'll be to be able to respond appropriately and effectively. The more we can do, and the better we can do it, the luckier we'll be.
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  #33  
Old 12-17-2011, 8:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bigcalidave View Post
So it's your opinion that a person should not carry a gun unless they have had many hours of training? Should the same person also have many hours of training to possess a gun in the home? The same situations may arise....
I agree with Jeff Cooper on this. See my signature line.

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Originally Posted by bigcalidave View Post
...firearms are used by untrained people every day to protect or save lives. ...
All that shows is that those particular people were able to solve their particular problems with whatever skills they happened to have. If their problems had been different, things might not have worked out so well for them.

One problem is that we seem to be pretty good at trying to collect statistics on successful defensive gun uses, but we don't seem to try very hard to identify failures. I recall one several years ago during an active shooter situation at a mall in Tacoma, Washington. A fellow with a LTC and armed made a hash of things and wound up (1) doing no good; and (2) seriously injured.

There was a home invasion in Dublin (or maybe San Ramon), California a bunch of years ago. The invaders were beaten, but the home owner died after having been shot by accident by his brother who was trying to help.

You have no way of knowing what you're going to have to be able to do to successfully defend yourself, because you have no way of knowing in advance what will happen or how it will happen. The better you are, the luckier you will be.

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...Some people can't spend the time to train for every situation,...
Training is not about training for particular situations. It's about developing and improving on basic skills

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Originally Posted by bigcalidave View Post
...guns are tremendously easy to use. Point and shoot....
Don't be silly. Based on my visits to ranges around here, most people display atrocious gun handling and abysmal marksmanship -- poking hole all over a large silhouette at seven yards -- slow fire with no stress. I, with a group of other instructors, teach monthly NRA Basic Handgun classes. We can teach people to shoot and know what is required for one to shoot reasonably competently. But a lot of people I see sure can't do it.

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...In the case of someone carrying LUCC, they are already far ahead of the curve in the use of firearms just based on their knowledge of the laws involved....
And I don't buy that for a second. Let some of them answer the questions I posed in post 28.
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Old 12-17-2011, 9:39 PM
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again, this has probably been covered a million times, and while I can't find it personally, isn't there some statute about only LUCC while on the way to or back from a shooting range?
PC12026.1 provides a blanket exemption any time you are within a motor vehicle.
PC12026.2 provides additional exemptions, with specific destination requirements, plus a catch all "for any lawful purpose"

The problem comes in as to whether the cop, prosecutor, and jury will accept "legally carrying in my motor vehicle as allowed by PC12026.1" as a "lawful purpose" exception under 12026.2.

Personally, I do not believe that the exemption is legal for routine "travel on foot" LUCC, but PC12026.1 provides a clear exemption for a "trunk gun"
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 12-17-2011, 9:43 PM
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Some people can't spend the time to train for every situation, guns are tremendously easy to use. Point and shoot. In the case of someone carrying LUCC, they are already far ahead of the curve in the use of firearms just based on their knowledge of the laws involved.
Perhaps ahead of the curve on legalities... but extremely optimistic in their ability to retrieve their gun from a locked container, load it, and use it, then have the situation be ruled a "good shoot"....

If you have time for all of the above, it would be a rare situation that you would be found to be in reasonable fear for your life or could not have effected retreat.
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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  #36  
Old 12-18-2011, 4:51 PM
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I agree with Jeff Cooper on this. See my signature line.
And I and many don't because while being very well-trained substantially increases your chances, not carrying a firearm because you are not highly-trained means you have a materially reduced chance of survival unarmed. I won't suffer that just because I don't train every week. Sure some training is necessary, but our military has good success with minimal firearms training for soldiers before combat and they trained me quite well to handle myself. Should I train more? Of course every one should, but within 5-10 yards, it isn't pistol training but judgement of when to shoot or not and coolness under duress that matter and those aren't easily trained.
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  #37  
Old 12-20-2011, 10:47 PM
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My question is if you are carrying your hand gun in a legal locked container are you immune from an E-check. As I read the E-check applies to open carry. Would a LEO need reasonable suspicion of a crime to search you and could you be forced to open a locked container without a warrant? I don't see how until the legislature reconvenes and passes another state law that subverts the Constitution.
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Old 12-21-2011, 12:09 AM
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No, RAS is not required - just information that says you have a gun with you. No LTC, check-for-loaded is authorized.

A locked container with no indication of 'gun' will tell a LEO nothing.

A locked container with 'Glock' or 'Smith and Wesson' on it might have your lunch in it.
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  #39  
Old 12-21-2011, 6:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baja Jones View Post
My question is if you are carrying your hand gun in a legal locked container are you immune from an E-check. As I read the E-check applies to open carry. Would a LEO need reasonable suspicion of a crime to search you and could you be forced to open a locked container without a warrant? I don't see how until the legislature reconvenes and passes another state law that subverts the Constitution.
The current e-check subverts the constitution more than adequately. If an officer knows there is a gun in the locked container they may inspect the fun to make sure it is unloaded as required by the law. So, if you are carrying a gun in a locked container the 4th a,end,ent doesn't apply on CA.
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  #40  
Old 12-22-2011, 6:09 AM
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i was reading fiddletown's posts and i thought to myself, where is this guy from? and then i look up and he's from san francisco. oh, that explains it.
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