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  #41  
Old 01-27-2015, 9:19 AM
kryptonicrxn kryptonicrxn is offline
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Thank you, will do.
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  #42  
Old 02-15-2015, 12:17 AM
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With the interstate transfer law recently deemed unconstitutional can I buy a CA legal Rimfire rifle in Nevada since CA prices and availability are crap? Also would the 10 day waiting period be used since its bought in NV?
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  #43  
Old 02-15-2015, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by rckjeep View Post
With the interstate transfer law recently deemed unconstitutional can I buy a CA legal Rimfire rifle in Nevada since CA prices and availability are crap? Also would the 10 day waiting period be used since its bought in NV?
Federal laws have allowed a FFL dealer in transferring a rifle or shotgun to a non-resident, as long as the transfer complies with both the State laws of the FFL dealer and the non-resident. Handguns and other firearms can only be transferred through a FFL dealer in the recipient's State of residence.

The decision (Mance v Holder) would change that, so a FFL dealer can transfer a firearm (handgun, other, rifle, shotgun) to a non-resident, as long as the transfer complies with both the State laws of the FFL dealer and the non-resident.

This decision does not change the fact it will still be Federal felonies for residents of different States to transfer firearms without the use of a FFL.

Therefore...
If the decision is upheld and goes into effect, as a CA resident, any firearm acquired in another State needs to be done in a method that complies with CA laws and the State laws of the FFL dealer.

Current CA laws [PC 27585], requires any firearm acquired by a CA resident in another State to be transferred to them through a CA FFL dealer in order to be legally imported into CA.

So, unless CA laws change, a CA resident may be able to acquire a firearm from a FFL dealer in another State but they will need to keep that firearm in that other State and never bring it to CA, unless it is transferred through a CA FFL dealer.
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  #44  
Old 02-15-2015, 1:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rckjeep View Post
With the interstate transfer law recently deemed unconstitutional can I buy a CA legal Rimfire rifle in Nevada since CA prices and availability are crap? Also would the 10 day waiting period be used since its bought in NV?
I'm assuming that you're referring to the trial court decision in Mance v. Holder.

That doesn't change anything here in California.

That decision was reached by a District Court judge in a matter before that court. For the moment, that's a far as the holding reaches. Should the government appeal (its a pretty sure bet that they will), then the Fifth Circuit will hear the case. If they publish their decision, then it will only reach Fifth Circuit. It still will not do anything for California. If the Fifth Circuit decision is appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, and if the court agrees to hear the case, and if the Supreme Court rules in favor of Mr. Mance, then we'll have something that is authoritative in California.

Please count up the number of "ifs" that have to occur, and then consider the glacial time-line required for all of that to occur.

Short answer: No, you cannot simply buy a rimfire rifle in Nevada and bring it back to California. If you're a dual-resident, you may proceed as Quiet has suggested above, but I doubt that you would be saving any money after paying the California FFL.

Last edited by RickD427; 02-15-2015 at 1:10 PM..
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  #45  
Old 05-06-2015, 9:52 AM
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I think it has been covered, but just want to make 100% sure. A family member resident in another state may gift an off roster pistol to their CA resident relative through a CA FFL? Any difference if friend instead of family from another state? Thanks much.
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  #46  
Old 05-06-2015, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I think it has been covered, but just want to make 100% sure. A family member resident in another state may gift an off roster pistol to their CA resident relative through a CA FFL? Any difference if friend instead of family from another state? Thanks much.
Yes there is a difference - intrafamilial transfers are roster-exempt; other out-of-state transfers are not.
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  #47  
Old 06-06-2015, 2:00 PM
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Default A New Scenario?

Here's a weird scenario that I didn't see covered in the thread, but is in fact a real case:
Joe Doe bought a long gun (legal in CA) in CA in the 1980s. Joe gave that rifle to his son, John, at that time. No paperwork was done. But John let Joe keep the gun in Joe's possession. 30 years later when Joe dies, John does not take back the rifle, but asks his brother Jack, who lives in NV, to hold on to it, and Jack takes it back to NV. Two years later, John wants his rifle back.

The rifle has technically been John's since the 1980s. True? Is it legally still John's rifle? Is there a legal way for John to take back possession of his rifle? If so, can Jack just ship the rifle to John? Does Jack have to ship it to a CA FFL? What if John drives to NV to pick up his rifle? Would that be legal?

Thanks for your insights!
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  #48  
Old 06-06-2015, 2:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate View Post
Here's a weird scenario that I didn't see covered in the thread, but is in fact a real case:

1) Joe Doe bought a long gun (legal in CA) in CA in the 1980s. Joe gave that rifle to his son, John, at that time. No paperwork was done.

2) But John let Joe keep the gun in Joe's possession.

3) 30 years later when Joe dies, John does not take back the rifle, but asks his brother Jack, who lives in NV, to hold on to it, and Jack takes it back to NV.

Two years later, John wants his rifle back.

4) The rifle has technically been John's since the 1980s. True? Is it legally still John's rifle?

Is there a legal way for John to take back possession of his rifle?

5) If so, can Jack just ship the rifle to John?

6) Does Jack have to ship it to a CA FFL?

7) What if John drives to NV to pick up his rifle? Would that be legal?

Thanks for your insights!
3) "Jack takes it back to NV" was an illegal interstate transfer. Should have gone through a NV FFL.

4) Probably not true

5) No

6) that would be the legal way to do a NV --> CA transfer

7) No, not legal.

Please remember, as clearly explained by Fiddletown in another post this morning, Federal gun laws are really concerned with possession.
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Last edited by Librarian; 06-06-2015 at 2:53 PM..
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  #49  
Old 06-07-2015, 7:53 PM
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Thanks, Librarian!!!
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  #50  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:01 PM
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It was my understanding that as a CA resident, I could NOT go to a different state and buy a G43 (LEO only in CA) or Walther PPS (not on roster) and have it shipped directly to my CA FFL, wait the 10 days, go through whatever paperwork I need and take possession.

And yet, that's what it says in one of the early posts on this thread.

Am I just wrong about this? If so, can you point me to the CA code where it indicates that I could buy a handgun this way?

I'm near Tahoe, so if that's true, I can simply go to NV, buy the off roster handgun, have it shipped to CA FFL and pick it up.

I've always thought that it MUST BE on CA roster regardless of whether you buy the handgun IN California or another state. Is that not correct?
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  #51  
Old 07-02-2015, 9:16 PM
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Originally Posted by FireCloud9 View Post
It was my understanding that as a CA resident, I could NOT go to a different state and buy a G43 (LEO only in CA) or Walther PPS (not on roster) and have it shipped directly to my CA FFL, wait the 10 days, go through whatever paperwork I need and take possession.

And yet, that's what it says in one of the early posts on this thread.

Am I just wrong about this? If so, can you point me to the CA code where it indicates that I could buy a handgun this way?

I'm near Tahoe, so if that's true, I can simply go to NV, buy the off roster handgun, have it shipped to CA FFL and pick it up.

I've always thought that it MUST BE on CA roster regardless of whether you buy the handgun IN California or another state. Is that not correct?
It IS correct.

Nothing in this thread suggests one can get off-Roster handguns by buying out of state; one must still be exempt from the Roster (e.g. LEO), or use a transaction exempt from the Roster (e.g. intrafamilial) or buy a gun itself exempt from the Roster (e.g. C&R).

See also post 3 in this thread.
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  #52  
Old 07-03-2015, 1:42 PM
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Well, I guess I'll just let lease expire, move out of CA for a few months, establish residency elsewhere, buy the firearms (off CA roster) that I want and then move back in 6-9 months re-establishing CA residency.

Thank goodness there are 49 other States!

Now, to find out which of those 49 States have the shortest residency requirements, get an apartment, driver's license, voting registration and part-time minimum wage job should do it.
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  #53  
Old 07-04-2015, 11:19 AM
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As far as I know, other states require you to be there for at least 6 months before acquiring residency. In Nevada, you have residency as soon as you claim you do AND Nevada doesn't have income tax :-)

https://www.leg.state.nv.us/Division.../Residency.pdf
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  #54  
Old 08-20-2015, 1:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
It IS correct.

Nothing in this thread suggests one can get off-Roster handguns by buying out of state; one must still be exempt from the Roster (e.g. LEO), or use a transaction exempt from the Roster (e.g. intrafamilial) or buy a gun itself exempt from the Roster (e.g. C&R).

See also post 3 in this thread.
Just so we're clear, isn't the word of law wrt the roster that a handgun not on the roster can't be sold in CA? In the case of say, someone buying a gun from Buds and having the transfer done in say, Martin Retting, is the sale not done in TN or KY or whatever it is out of State, or is the transfer legally considered the same as the sale?

It seems to me that the gun is the buyers property when the seller accepts payment in most cases of this sort of interaction.

Or is this still TBD in court?

(No I don't want to be the test case)


Quote:
Originally Posted by KingChiron View Post
As far as I know, other states require you to be there for at least 6 months before acquiring residency. In Nevada, you have residency as soon as you claim you do AND Nevada doesn't have income tax :-)

https://www.leg.state.nv.us/Division.../Residency.pdf
I will def file that under "good to know" - thanks.
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  #55  
Old 08-20-2015, 4:24 PM
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Originally Posted by cvigue View Post
Just so we're clear, isn't the word of law wrt the roster that a handgun not on the roster can't be sold in CA?
No.

A dealer cannot sell/transfer an off-Roster handgun unless the buyer/transferee is exempt - essentially LEO. But it's perfectly legal for a FFL to sell off-Roster to LEOs.

A PPT, where one CA resident sells to another CA resident, is an exempt-from-the-Roster transaction. CA FFLs understand that (well, most of them).

You're free to make the off-Roster handgun purchase out of state - but FedLaw requires the handgun be transferred trough an FFL in your state of residence. Legal sale in, say, KY, but the CA FFL cannot transfer to you unless you are exempt.

And further Roster discussion belongs in its own thread. It'll close quickly - really nothing new to say. See the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/The_Safe_Handgun_List
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It takes time to unwind 40 years of bad law.

Last edited by Librarian; 08-20-2015 at 4:26 PM..
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  #56  
Old 11-07-2015, 4:27 PM
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All this is making my head hurt but, if I understand it, I should be good if:

1. I live most of the time in California but, I live part of the time in WA and have a WA ID card. Also, have a WA CCW permit. If when in WA I purchase an off-roster gun, can I return to CA with that gun and register it?

2. If while visiting my mother in WA she gives me a off-roster gun, can I return to CA and register it?

I believe the answer to both should be yes, please confirm with your opinion.
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  #57  
Old 12-16-2015, 9:52 AM
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Librarian,

I have a question that I don't believe has been answered.

Can one go to a class in another state on building your own firearm for personal use, say a 1911, complete the class and bring the newly built firearm back to California?

Thanks for any clarification.
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  #58  
Old 12-16-2015, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Nick1236 View Post
Librarian,

I have a question that I don't believe has been answered.

Can one go to a class in another state on building your own firearm for personal use, say a 1911, complete the class and bring the newly built firearm back to California?

Thanks for any clarification.
It's complicated and was answered in this thread.

Short answer:
Violates Federal laws, unless multiple FFLs are involved.

In addition...
The firearm needs to be CA legal and, if the firearm is a handgun, it needs to be on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale or be exempt from it.
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  #59  
Old 12-16-2015, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Audredger View Post
All this is making my head hurt but, if I understand it, I should be good if:

1. I live most of the time in California but, I live part of the time in WA and have a WA ID card. Also, have a WA CCW permit. If when in WA I purchase an off-roster gun, can I return to CA with that gun and register it?

2. If while visiting my mother in WA she gives me a off-roster gun, can I return to CA and register it?

I believe the answer to both should be yes, please confirm with your opinion.
Answer to both is No.

As a dual resident of CA & WA, you can legally acquire an off-Roster handgun in WA but you can not legally bring it to CA.

Starting 01-01-2015, a firearm acquired out-of-state by a CA resident or by a dual resident of CA needs to be transferred through a CA FFL dealer in order to be legally brought into CA. [PC 27585(a)] Currently, there are no exemptions that will allow an off-Roster non-exempt handgun to be transferred in compliance with this.
Failure to comply equates to one misdemeanor per long gun and one felony per handgun. [PC 27590(a)&(c)(7)]



Penal Code 27585
(a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.

Penal Code 27590
(a) Except as provided in subdivision (b), (c), or (e), a violation of this article is a misdemeanor.
(c) If any of the following circumstances apply, a violation of this article shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170, or by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
(7) A violation of Section 27585 involving a handgun.
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Last edited by Quiet; 12-16-2015 at 11:08 AM..
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  #60  
Old 12-16-2015, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Answer to both is No.

As a dual resident of CA & WA, you can legally acquire an off-Roster handgun in WA but you can not legally bring it to CA.

Starting 01-01-2015, a firearm acquired out-of-state by a CA resident or by a dual resident of CA needs to be transferred through a CA FFL dealer in order to be legally brought into CA. [PC 27585(a)] Currently, there are no exemptions that will allow an off-Roster non-exempt handgun to be transferred in compliance with this.
Failure to comply equates to one misdemeanor per long gun and one felony per handgun. [PC 27590(a)&(c)(7)]



Penal Code 27585
(a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.

Penal Code 27590
(a) Except as provided in subdivision (b), (c), or (e), a violation of this article is a misdemeanor.
(c) If any of the following circumstances apply, a violation of this article shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170, or by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
(7) A violation of Section 27585 involving a handgun.
Quiet,

I'll admit that Penal Code section 27585 is more than a little bit confusing, but I'm not so sure that it prohibits a California FFL from transferring an off-roster handgun to a dual resident.

You've very correctly cited the applicable law. If the OP is a "dual-resident" then he is clearly bound by the provisions of PC 27585 and must deliver the handgun to a California FFL (before bringing it into the state) for transfer. The transfer must comply with Penal Code section 27540 and Articles 1 and 2 of Division 6, Title 4, Part 6 of Penal Code (or in simpler terms Penal Code sections 27540 and 26700-26915).

You are also correct that there is no exemption within those Penal Code sections that would permit the transfer of an off-roster handgun, but it's also really important to note that there is no prohibition contained in those Penal Sections that prohibits the transfer of an off-roster handgun.

The prohibition on an FFL selling an off-roster handgun is contained in Penal Code section 32000. Section 32000 is not within the range of Penal Code sections that are embraced by PC 27585.

PC 32000 prohibits an FFL (along with anyone else) from the following:

"manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun..."

Interestingly, PC 32000 does not prohibit the "transfer" of an unsafe handgun.

Has anyone received any guidance from DOJ on the application of PC 27585 to off-roster handguns?
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  #61  
Old 12-16-2015, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
Has anyone received any guidance from DOJ on the application of PC 27585 to off-roster handguns?
Last I heard, the CA DROS system won't allow it.

So, it could be an underground regulation or an oversight on CA DOJ's part.

In any case, bottom line, it's currently a no-go.
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