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  #1  
Old 12-15-2015, 12:22 PM
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Default Question about unlawful searches and our rights to protect ourselves

Firstly I want to start off by saying I respect cops and their service to the country, so this is not a cop bashing thread. But as we all know, not all cops are good cops, and with the recent news of a cop using his badge to rape people, I had a question in my mind that I wanted to ask, as I'm not too familiar with laws surrounding use of deadly force for self defense.

Suppose a cop knocks on your door and asks to search your house. You ask for search warrant, but he doesn't have any. At that point, if he forcefully enters your home, do you have the right to use deadly force (guns, since this is a gun forum) to defend yourself if you feel your life is endangered by the cop?
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:25 PM
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No search warrant, no enter. If they do, deal with it later in court and sue their ***. Just my opinion.
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baekacaek View Post
Suppose a cop knocks on your door and asks to search your house. You ask for search warrant, but he doesn't have any. At that point, if he forcefully enters your home, do you have the right to use deadly force (guns, since this is a gun forum) to defend yourself if you feel your life is endangered by the cop?


HUHHHH??? USE deadly force against a cop? to defend yourself? youre better off getting security cameras if youre going to be this paranoid.

i'm not saying it doesn't happen. but youre ****ed if it does.

so do yourself a favor and get some cameras
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:28 PM
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Yes and no, you must actually have a reasonable belief that your life is in danger.

What did the cop say, why did the cop do, and what events led up to it?

Did the cop have his gun drawn and say I'm gonna kill you? Or did he simply bash down the door? Was he trying to arrest you?

A bunch of factors will go into it...

But generally, you do have the right to lawful self defense, even against cops
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baekacaek View Post
Firstly I want to start off by saying I respect cops and their service to the country, so this is not a cop bashing thread. But as we all know, not all cops are good cops, and with the recent news of a cop using his badge to rape people, I had a question in my mind that I wanted to ask, as I'm not too familiar with laws surrounding use of deadly force for self defense.

Suppose a cop knocks on your door and asks to search your house. You ask for search warrant, but he doesn't have any. At that point, if he forcefully enters your home, do you have the right to use deadly force (guns, since this is a gun forum) to defend yourself if you feel your life is endangered by the cop?
Who is the decision-maker about whether a search is unlawful?

There are very many situations where LEOs may lawfully search a residence without a warrant, and there are also many situations where warrantless searches are unlawful. The difference is decided by the facts that are known to the LEO at the time of the search. The person in control of location may, or may not, be privy to that information.

The problem with your question is that it assumes the person in control of the location is able to make a proper assessment of the lawfulness of the officer's actions, and to make a corresponding decision about the use of force in reaction. That's simply not the case.

Decisions about the lawfulness of a search are made after the fact, by a court that can evaluate all of the information. If a person's rights were violated, the court can craft a remedy.

If the person in control of a location makes an incorrect decision, applies force (which will prompt a response of force), the results typically cannot be remedied.
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
Who is the decision-maker about whether a search is unlawful?

There are very many situations where LEOs may lawfully search a residence without a warrant, and there are also many situations where warrantless searches are unlawful. The difference is decided by the facts that are known to the LEO at the time of the search. The person in control of location may, or may not, be privy to that information.

The problem with your question is that it assumes the person in control of the location is able to make a proper assessment of the lawfulness of the officer's actions, and to make a corresponding decision about the use of force in reaction. That's simply not the case.

Decisions about the lawfulness of a search are made after the fact, by a court that can evaluate all of the information. If a person's rights were violated, the court can craft a remedy.

If the person in control of a location makes an incorrect decision, applies force (which will prompt a response of force), the results typically cannot be remedied.
I see. Thanks for the detailed explanation. So it looks like the best answer (generally) is to let the cop have his way and fight in the court later.

I'm just afraid of cases where a criminal imposes as a cop. Even if I sue afterwards, the criminal is long gone and there's nothing the court can do for me then
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:57 PM
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Old 12-15-2015, 1:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazycomic View Post
No search warrant, no enter. If they do, deal with it later in court and sue their ***. Just my opinion.
^^^ This

There are instances where you can legally use deadly force against a cop. But you're going to want to think long and hard about the wisdom of that. The odds simply aren't in your favor going up against the police. While not perfect, we do have a pretty good legal system. Best to get through the situation alive and address the issue in court. That's just my opinion. YMMV.
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Old 12-15-2015, 1:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baekacaek View Post
I see. Thanks for the detailed explanation. So it looks like the best answer (generally) is to let the cop have his way and fight in the court later.

I'm just afraid of cases where a criminal imposes as a cop.
Even if I sue afterwards, the criminal is long gone and there's nothing the court can do for me then
There is no best answer, and certainly letting anyone have their way is not it. Ask questions, and verify who he really is, and why he needs to search. You'll find that if it is a legitimate search like for a suspect who may have gone to ground they will tell you right up front.


Ask for I.D. if in plain clothes or uniform if you are unsure as to if he is an officer or not. Everyone has one and a badge doesn't cut it.
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Old 12-15-2015, 1:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baekacaek View Post
I see. Thanks for the detailed explanation. So it looks like the best answer (generally) is to let the cop have his way and fight in the court later.

I'm just afraid of cases where a criminal imposes as a cop. Even if I sue afterwards, the criminal is long gone and there's nothing the court can do for me then
I would say no do not "let him have his way". If he has no warrant you make it expressly clear that you are not consenting to any warrantless searches and he does not have your permission to enter.

If he is determined to search anyway them give them no other option than to use some overt type of force (ie kicking in the door, pushing you out of the way, etc). Because the burden of proof to prove probable cause in the case of a warrantless search lies with the officer. So make it obvious somehow that he FORCED his way in despite your lack of consent.

And lone, solo COP is virtually NEVER going to just appear out of no where to legitimately be seeking to search your home. If there is a hot pursuit of a suspect in the area you could possibly be contacted by a single officer but their would likely be evidence of LE activity in the area. If a single COP (or someone claiming to be) knocked on my door asking to search I would INSTANTLY be VERY SUSPICIOUS! Also any legit officer, especially plain clothed, making contact with you at your home would not or should not have an issue with showing you his ID and allowing you to make a phone call to verify his identity. If he refused.....I would instantly be calling 911!
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  #11  
Old 12-15-2015, 1:35 PM
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Default RickD427 said

Quote:
Decisions about the lawfulness of a search are made after the fact, by a court that can evaluate all of the information. If a person's rights were violated, the court can craft a remedy.
That is because there is NO SIMPLE answer to your question. Everything has to do with all the facts of any given incident. If one single circumstance is different from an otherwise identical incident. It changes the entire result of findings. There is no One Size Fits All.

There have been cases of police being shot, and even killed, while serving warrants. Where the shooter/resident was absolved of any wrong doing.

On the other end of the spectrum.

There have been cases where police shoot, and even kill residents, while serving warrants. And are found to be criminally liable for their actions.

The outcome of any given incident lies somewhere in between. Depending on individual circumstances of the incident.

Best overall outcome is to always. Advise LE that you are not consenting to a search. If they demand, and or force entry. Let the lawyers sort it out.

That way, only wallets get hurt.

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Old 12-15-2015, 1:43 PM
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If I'm not expecting someone, I don't open the door. If I'm concerned about a fake cop at the door, I'll phone police & give them his name to verify he's a real cop before opening the door.

If he's a real cop & wants to enter without a warrant, I'll say "I do not consent," but if he insists, I won't physically resist. That would be stupid because all he has to say to justify it is something like, "I have a report of__________ & I'm required to investigate."
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Old 12-15-2015, 1:54 PM
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This is why there is the "exclusionary" and "fruits of the poison tree" rules in criminal procedure.

You don't need to defend yourself on the spot from an unlawful search and seizure, you do that in court with a lawyer.

As mentioned above the devil is in the details. The question comes down would a reasonable person in your situation feel they were in imminent danger from serious bodily harm or death? That depends. We've seen cops and citizens shot or killed executing no knock warrants when residents have reasonably assumed their home was being invaded by criminals.

If you aren't sure the person requesting entry to your home really is a cop request they have dispatch call you, but also make it clear that you are armed as contrary to popular opinion most cops don't like to be in shoot outs. If you are sure they are a cop, but don't think they have cause or a warrant to enter your dwelling make them break into your house. Opening the door for them may be seen as consent to what would have otherwise been an improper search.
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Old 12-15-2015, 3:33 PM
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Hahaha...

Shooting at a cop in your home?! You nuts?!

I like the idea of getting cameras. I have been thinking of doing it for awhile. The prices have gone down and may do so soon. I like it to be user friendly. Anyone have suggestions? I like one that is sent only to my computer or "cloud" service that only I have access to and can delete anything anytime at my command. Because those things can cut both ways (think Nixon).

But yes. . . I will type it. I am not a fan of cops. I do feel bad a bit about the negative press they have been getting lately but they brought that upon themselves. I am a huge fan of body cameras and they should be at the top of every politicians wish list. Just about every other job out there has cameras on their employees (retail, bank workers, convenience store clerks, casino workers, etc) and if any cop comes out against body cameras they should be high on any departments suspected list of bad cops.

If a cop comes to my door, I am not letting them in, but will talk with them at the front door.

I do remember one time when I was living in Oregon, some cops came to my door. Oregon cops are actually pretty cool. My mom was visiting me. Anyways, I almost got into a fight with someone who parked in my spot. My mom thought I was nuts, even tho I was right and the guy backed off but I guess he called the cops on me. Anyways, cops came to my door with an attitude!

I kept them at the door and my mom was a bit hysterical, thinking I was in trouble. I then said, "mom, be nice to me!" The cops then were immediately nice! They thought my mom was my gf (yes she looks young and attractive) and it was a domestic disturbance call. I then said, "no. Some hipsters are playing you guys and I they are high on drugs causing problems." I pointed out where they lived and they apologized and went that way.

I do find it funny how when they thought mom was my gf they were on edge. Once I said "mom" and caved in to her, basically being, for lack of better word "momma's boy" had them become cool.

Moral? You have no idea why they are coming to your door.





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Old 12-15-2015, 4:04 PM
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Rickd has the best answer so far. If you have nothing to hide and no one is threatened IE. children, individuals that cannot protect themselves then object by voice then stand aside. Deal with it using the meanest ambulance chaser you can find. (LOL)
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Old 12-15-2015, 4:12 PM
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ask for supervisor
get everything on video, hopefully cell phone is close by
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Old 12-15-2015, 4:31 PM
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Let's have a look at what the Fourth Amendment actually says (emphasis added):
Quote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
It doesn't protect us against a search or seizure without a warrant. It protects us against an unreasonable search or seizure. There has been a lot of litigation on the subject and a lot of tests developed for deciding if a search or seizure without a warrant does or does not satisfy constitutional standards of reasonableness.

Those tests depend on exactly what happened and how it happened. Therefore, the question can only be decided in court after the fact.
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Old 12-15-2015, 5:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baekacaek View Post
Firstly I want to start off by saying I respect cops and their service to the country, so this is not a cop bashing thread. But as we all know, not all cops are good cops, and with the recent news of a cop using his badge to rape people, I had a question in my mind that I wanted to ask, as I'm not too familiar with laws surrounding use of deadly force for self defense.

Suppose a cop knocks on your door and asks to search your house. You ask for search warrant, but he doesn't have any. At that point, if he forcefully enters your home, do you have the right to use deadly force (guns, since this is a gun forum) to defend yourself if you feel your life is endangered by the cop?
You really need more info, if the LEO proceeds to search your home then the answer is no.

If the LEO proceeds to try and harm you or your family (crystal clear on this) then yes.

Expect to be arrested and go to trial.

If the LEO starts performing a search I would get my family out of the house and call 911.
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Old 12-16-2015, 8:30 AM
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Sure, get into a firefight with cop at your front door. That will solve everything because you will be dead.
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Old 12-16-2015, 8:34 AM
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Do you want to get killed and let the person doing the wrongful search get to tell a one-sided story or survive and have a chance at dealing with it? You've got to wisely choose when and where to fight your battles.
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:29 AM
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I don't believe even with a warrant that LEOs have to produce it on request prior to entry.
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by stix213 View Post
I don't believe even with a warrant that LEOs have to produce it on request prior to entry.
Stix,

You are correct. There is no requirement to show the warrant, or even to bring the warrant to the scene of the search. It's often a good business practice for officers to do so, but it is not required.

There is also no requirement for the LEO's to disclose the information forming the basis for their "probable cause" to persons at the search location.

The only document that must be produced at the scene is an inventory of items seized pursuant to the warrant. (PC 1535)
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Old 12-17-2015, 5:23 AM
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Not quite THE dumbest thread of 2015, but definitely in my top 5.
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Old 12-17-2015, 6:10 AM
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But what if you had a puppy that could bark at him? Would that complicate your decision to let him in?
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Old 12-17-2015, 6:34 AM
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How do you tell if it is a real cop?

Many Home Invasions are done with people pretending to be Police?
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