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  #1  
Old 02-15-2017, 7:46 PM
dcnblues dcnblues is offline
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Default An FFL can't do a PPT?

I'm very sorry, but I'm on a timecrunch and haven't been able to find this quickly. Can someone explain this with a short version?

-I'm in CA. An FFL dealer is in CA. He has a non register revolver on his books he wants to sell me. But he's telling me can't do so with a PPT? As this contradicts my understanding, I could use some help. Of course I'm hoping that he's simply wrong and can sell me the gun. But the mistake is probably mine.
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Old 02-15-2017, 7:56 PM
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If a store owns it, from what I understand it can only be sold to a roster exempt (such as LEO) or out of state . If he personally owns it, PPT should be an option. Sounds like his store owns it?
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Old 02-15-2017, 7:57 PM
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If it is part of his stock, then it is not a PPT, and can only be sold to an exempt person. Your post is unclear as to how he acquired the gun in the first place.
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Old 02-15-2017, 8:06 PM
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The mistake is yours. If the gun is on his books he cannot do a PPT. If someone who works there personally owns the firearm, then it can be PPT.

There are tens of thousands of used off roster guns on the books of FFLs and on display at gun stores across CA, and the only people who can buy them are law enforcement or out of state.
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Old 02-15-2017, 8:43 PM
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Thank you Skyhawk. That's genuinely absurd (your last sentence). Now I get why the gun stores are closing.
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Old 02-15-2017, 8:55 PM
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I respectfully disagree with Skyhawk. An FFL can acquire an off roster pistol from a private party. The gun must be held for 30 days and then can be sold to anybody. The buyer does not have to be exempt once the pistol is no longer "new."
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Old 02-15-2017, 8:58 PM
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If an FFL has a new off roster pistol, it is correct than only an exempt person could buy it.
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Old 02-15-2017, 9:09 PM
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If we purchase a firearm for resale it is not roster exempt. If it is on consignment a private individual is the seller we are just facilitating it.
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Old 02-15-2017, 9:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyd View Post
I respectfully disagree with Skyhawk. An FFL can acquire an off roster pistol from a private party. The gun must be held for 30 days and then can be sold to anybody. The buyer does not have to be exempt once the pistol is no longer "new."
You are mistaken. The distinction between a consignment gun on display for a private seller and one on the books of the FFL (aka acquired by the FFL) is important.

A FFL can take a gun in on CONSIGNMENT, hold it for 30 days then display it for sale on behalf of the seller, who did a DROS WORKSHEET in advance for a PPT. It will be DROSd as a PPT. The FFL will take a commission for his service. The FFL never acquired the gun, and the seller is free to retrieve it anytime before it sells if he chooses, after doing a consignment return DROS.

However, if the FFL acquires the gun, i.e. buys it, logs it on their bound book as an acquisition, it CANNOT be transferred to a non exempt person unless the gun is on roster or roster exempt.

The only way a FFL can acquire a pistol and then offer it for sale to anybody, is if the pistol is on roster or in a roster exempt configuration.

There are a lot of FFLs who deal heavily in CONSIGNMENTS. There you will find off roster guns on display that you can buy, because the seller has completed a DROS PPT worksheet in advance, just waiting for a buyer. But there are plenty of used guns on display that are not consignments. They were acquired by the FFL in trade or from sellers who could not wait for cash, usually for pennies on the dollar.



Quote:
Originally Posted by dcnblues View Post
Thank you Skyhawk. That's genuinely absurd (your last sentence). Now I get why the gun stores are closing.
And that is exactly the way the lawmakers planned it.
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Last edited by SkyHawk; 02-15-2017 at 9:35 PM..
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Old 02-15-2017, 9:14 PM
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A California FFL cannot sell a new (never DROSed) handgun that is off roster, unless it's a SSE..
A California FFL CAN sell a used off-roster handgun under the following circumstances-
A C&R
A roster-exempt handgun (Olympic style .22, Single shot, Single action revolver that meets criteria, maybe a few more that I'm forgetting)
PPT where both parties are present
Consignment -SKYHAWK gave a great description of what that means
Law enforcement purchase or other exempt person
Out of state sale.
Other than that, pretty much no.
Just because it's used, does not mean it's automatically able to be sold. In more instances than not, a used handgun that is off roster is not able to be sold in CA unless the previous situations were present.
They (the DOJ) created the roster for a reason, to keep handguns out of the hands of California citizens.

Last edited by Wyseguy; 02-15-2017 at 9:21 PM..
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  #11  
Old 02-15-2017, 9:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
You are mistaken. A FFL can take a gun in on CONSIGNMENT, hold it for 30 days then display it for sale on behalf of the seller, who did a DROS WORKSHEET in advance for a PPT. It will be DROSd as a PPT. The FFL will take a commission for his service.

However, if the FFL acquires the gun, i.e. buys it, logs it on their bound book as an acquisition, it CANNOT be transferred to a non exempt person unless the gun is on roster or roster exempt.

The only way a FFL can acquire a pistol and then offer it for sale to anybody, is if the pistol is on roster or in a roster exempt configuration.

There are a lot of FFLs who deal heavily in CONSIGNMENTS. There you will find off roster guns on display that you can buy, because the seller has completed a DROS PPT worksheet in advance, just waiting for a buyer. But there are plenty of used guns on display that are not consignments. They were acquired by the FFL in trade or from sellers who could not wait for cash, usually for pennies on the dollar.

The distinction between a consignment gun on display for a seller and one on the books of the FFL is important.

And that is exactly the way the lawmakers planned it.
First question. Are you an FFL, an attorney or just very knowledgeable? Second, can you elaborate on this process? While I am aware of the 30 day hold, I was unaware that a FFL could take a handgun on consignment and then sell it as a PPT. An explanation of this process would be a significant benefit to the member of this forum. Looking forward to your response.
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:11 PM
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I stand corrected Skyhawk, it does need to be a consignment. When I used the word "acquire" it made it sound like I was referring to the "acquisition" part of the A & D book. I apologize for doubting you.

Tim
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAJ475 View Post
First question. Are you an FFL, an attorney or just very knowledgeable? Second, can you elaborate on this process? While I am aware of the 30 day hold, I was unaware that a FFL could take a handgun on consignment and then sell it as a PPT. An explanation of this process would be a significant benefit to the member of this forum. Looking forward to your response.
Not an attorney and not a FFL. I do buy a lot of guns, and I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.

You can learn more about this from real FFLs in the FFL forum, but here is the gist:

The key is what is called a DROS worksheet. This is an official DOJ form that a seller or buyer (or both) fills out in advance of an actual DROS. It has all the information that a standard DROS would have including a seller's signature. It allows the FFL to enter the DROS in the DES (DROS Entry System) system at a later time/date - by transferring the information from the worksheet even if the party or parties is/are not physically present, and the seller never has to come back to sign anything, because they signed the worksheet.

So because the only way an off roster gun that is not roster exempt can be sold to a non exempt buyer, is via PPT, this is how most consignments are handled.

The DROS worksheets can also be used when the DES system is down, instead of making someone stand around and wait - they can fill out the worksheet and when the DES system comes back online, the FFL can process the DROS.

You can see a worksheet here http://www.calgunlawsbook.com/wp-con...-DROS-Form.pdf

So when you go in to consignment sell an off roster, not-roster-exempt gun, the dealer will have you fill one of those out and sign it. They will keep the worksheet on standby as long as it takes until a buyer shows up, then the DROS will be entered into DES as a PPT, using seller information from the worksheet. It is a roster exempt transaction, and not subject to 1-in-30 (if outside of LA).

There is a store near me that deals heavily in consignments - almost all guns on display (hundreds) are consignment. You can go in and browse off roster handguns and buy ten of them at once if you want. The bad thing is that in addition to marked up prices from commission and off roster premiums, you also pay tax because the dealer is required to collect sales tax if the item was displayed or promoted in-store, even if it is not their inventory. Thank the BOE for that.
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Last edited by SkyHawk; 02-15-2017 at 10:43 PM..
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  #14  
Old 02-16-2017, 10:18 AM
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The difference is also how we enter it in the DES system. When we take a firearm on consignment the consignment box is checked. When we buy something the purchase box is checked. I know FFLs that always (illegally) check the consignment box. The only way they get caught is when someone is selling the firearm because they are a prohibited possessor. The DOJ then wants to know why that person is selling a firearm months down the road.
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Old 02-16-2017, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyseguy View Post
A California FFL cannot sell a new (never DROSed) handgun that is off roster, unless it's a SSE..

A California FFL CAN sell a used off-roster handgun under the following circumstances-
A C&R
A roster-exempt handgun (Olympic style .22, Single shot, Single action revolver that meets criteria, maybe a few more that I'm forgetting)
PPT where both parties are present
Consignment -SKYHAWK gave a great description of what that means
Law enforcement purchase or other exempt person
Out of state sale.
Other than that, pretty much no.
Just because it's used, does not mean it's automatically able to be sold. In more instances than not, a used handgun that is off roster is not able to be sold in CA unless the previous situations were present.
They (the DOJ) created the roster for a reason, to keep handguns out of the hands of California citizens.
the bolded portion is inaccurate.

why even mention new vs. used? the PC doesn't make that distinction.



A California FFL CAN sell a used NEW or USED off-roster handgun under the following circumstances-
A C&R
A roster-exempt handgun (Olympic style .22, Single shot, Single action revolver that meets criteria, maybe a few more that I'm forgetting)
PPT where both parties are present
Consignment -SKYHAWK gave a great description of what that means
Law enforcement purchase or other exempt person
Out of state sale.


brand new roster-exempt handguns can be sold to the public.
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Old 02-16-2017, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
the bolded portion is inaccurate.

why even mention new vs. used? the PC doesn't make that distinction.



A California FFL CAN sell a used NEW or USED off-roster handgun under the following circumstances-
A C&R
A roster-exempt handgun (Olympic style .22, Single shot, Single action revolver that meets criteria, maybe a few more that I'm forgetting)
PPT where both parties are present
Consignment -SKYHAWK gave a great description of what that means
Law enforcement purchase or other exempt person
Out of state sale.


brand new roster-exempt handguns can be sold to the public.
How can it be a PPT if the selling party is the FFL? Are you thinking of when the FFL transfers from inventory to his private collection and a year later sells the gun?
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Old 02-16-2017, 1:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
How can it be a PPT if the selling party is the FFL? Are you thinking of when the FFL transfers from inventory to his private collection and a year later sells the gun?
not all options apply to new handguns, but the point is not to try to put the "new" or "used" name to try to describe what transfers can be made.

think of it this way,
an FFL may transfer any on-roster handgun to a person. NEW or USED doesn't matter.
an FFL may transfer any CA-legal off-roster handgun to a roster-exempt person or to a non-exempt person in a roster-exempt transfer. again, NEW or USED doesn't matter.

but to take your example,

A California FFL cannot sell a new (never DROSed) handgun that is off roster, unless it's a SSE..

Or, if it is one of the following;
A C&R (there are brand new C&R handguns (think Makarov types) that are brand new in box, that have never been DROSed in CA, that qualify)
A roster-exempt handgun (Olympic style .22, Single shot, Single action revolver that meets criteria, maybe a few more that I'm forgetting)
Law enforcement purchase or other exempt person
Out of state sale.
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