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  #1  
Old 11-19-2011, 1:40 PM
Jack1939 Jack1939 is offline
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Default barnes x bullets with regular load data?

I am about to start loading up some barnes x bullets for 7.62x54r so I can hunt pig in the no lead zone.

I will be using the .311 diameter (I slugged my bore) 150 grain tsx bullets and I also got some .308" 168 grain tipped tsx.

Has anyone worked up a load for 7.62x54r with the 150grain .311" tsx bullet?

I have the Lee, Lyman, Hornady manuals but only the Lee (and the Hodgdon website) have data specifically for barnes x bullets in 165 grain, .308" diameter.

My basic question is can I use load data for a regular 150 grain bullet for a barnes tsx bullet of the same weight? Of course, OAL will be different, but can I still use the recommended (starting) powder charge? Anyone have experience with this? Doesn't have to be specific to 7.62x54r...
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Old 11-19-2011, 6:42 PM
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Sub95 Sub95 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack1939 View Post
IMy basic question is can I use load data for a regular 150 grain bullet for a barnes tsx bullet of the same weight? Of course, OAL will be different, but can I still use the recommended (starting) powder charge? Anyone have experience with this? Doesn't have to be specific to 7.62x54r...
yes you can.

barnes likes a little more speed.

rite now i have the ttsx 168gr .308 using varget at 44.grains. avg fps 2700
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Old 11-19-2011, 10:32 PM
Divernhunter Divernhunter is offline
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Best to use barnes data for barnes bullets. They are different. Now you can use reg Hornady data for the non-lead Hornady bullets.
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  #4  
Old 11-20-2011, 12:51 PM
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No, you cannot use jacketed data for copper bullets. The reason is, a copper bullet is not as dense as as a lead jacketed bullet. This means that a bullet of a given weight is larger in volume than its jacketed or lead equivalent. This means that the bullet protrudes into the case more, decreasing the available volume of the case for powder. This can raise the pressure of the cartridge beyond the intended maximum pressure by just decreasing the space the powder has to burn in, or also by compressing yhe charge, causing the powder to burn faster than intended. Instead i would start a little below the start load and work up, watching for pressure signs
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Old 11-20-2011, 1:55 PM
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if you look at jacketed bullets load data and barnes load data there alomst the same data

my .308 for jacketed off hodgdon site

168 GR. SIE HPBT Hodgdon Varget .308" coal 2.800" 42.0 2520 41,200 CUP 46.0C 2731 50,600 CUP

.308 barnes

Bullet Weight: 168 gr COAL: 2.810" Varget 41.0 2475 45.5c 2712 101

as you see both are compressed charges for max powder charge, and barnes adds .010" to coal and takes a .5 grains of powder away.

So he will be just fine using min powder charge from jacketed bullet load data then go up from there. he already knows he will have to use a different coal/oal
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Old 11-21-2011, 9:27 PM
Whiterabbit Whiterabbit is offline
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Compare barnes data to jacketed data. They are not even close! And Barnes data is always lower in charge than jacketed.

In some cartridges like 460 S&W I would be scared to fire a jacketed cartridge load using a barnes bullet.

In my experience Hodgdon load data is much more wide and varied than Barnes data, but the Barnes data is more accurate (in my guns).

But best by far to start with barnes data. I'd sooner interchange cast and jacketed data than solids and anything else.
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:40 AM
brianinca brianinca is offline
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>>>>

barnes likes a little more speed.
>>>>

Yep.

>>>>
Compare barnes data to jacketed data. They are not even close!
>>>>

Barnes has limited data available at best and in '08 NO data was available for several cartridges I reload for. It's no big deal to use good conservative handloading practices to get good, accurate loads with the Barnes bullets using available data. I generally have at least two sets of manual data for anything I load anyway. If you zoom right up to max loads, your bullet choice is the least of your worries.

The non-lead bullets are LONG, I wound up using my tumbler to vibrate filled cases to settle the powder just so I could seat 762x39 and 308 Win. I doubt 762x54R will have that problem. If it does, just hold the case head against the center post for several seconds, then seat normally. I do always collet crimp hunting loads.

Regards,
Brian in CA
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:07 PM
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I agree the data is limited. I run into the same challenge reloading. That's why I take "similar" data and extrapolate.

I noticed very very quickly that jacketed data is nice and linear, so is cast, and even copper data is pretty good. Cast and jacketed aren't that far off, but copper loads aren't even on the radar, and the charges are always very low. The reasons why are well documented, but all I am trying to say is that I do not suggest going anywhere near max jacketed loads with copper bullets. To start low and work up. To expect the pressure signs to start well below max of jacketed.

Maybe a better way to put it would be to say "expect to use less powder to achieve the same velocity/pressure"?

Last edited by Whiterabbit; 11-22-2011 at 12:13 PM..
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Old 11-22-2011, 1:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
I agree the data is limited. I run into the same challenge reloading. That's why I take "similar" data and extrapolate.

I noticed very very quickly that jacketed data is nice and linear, so is cast, and even copper data is pretty good. Cast and jacketed aren't that far off, but copper loads aren't even on the radar, and the charges are always very low. The reasons why are well documented, but all I am trying to say is that I do not suggest going anywhere near max jacketed loads with copper bullets. To start low and work up. To expect the pressure signs to start well below max of jacketed.

Maybe a better way to put it would be to say "expect to use less powder to achieve the same velocity/pressure"?
One thing I will point out with this statement is that some powders are NOT linear and therefore are even more dangerous. Above certain pressures, the burn rate can increase exponentially. Just a heads up for anyone reading this that is NOT that familiar with differences in powder.
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Old 11-22-2011, 2:07 PM
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Go here and call the 800 number, they will have some data that they will give over the phone. There just is not enough data on all cartridges at the time of print to have a listing for them.

if that dont work, sorry i tried
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Old 11-23-2011, 12:44 AM
Jack1939 Jack1939 is offline
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Thanks to everyone who replied. I have not bought the Barnes Manual because I am pretty sure they do not have data for 7.62x54r. The only data specific to 7.62x54r seems to be for the .308" 165 grain barnes x bullet, which for all I know could be slightly different copper alloy or something from the TSX bullets I will be loading.

I wrote to the Barnes people and they recommend using reliable data from a good source using equal bullet weights. They said the Lyman manual (that I asked about) is a good place to start and they send me a ms word file with the data from the Hodgdon website (for .308" jacketed bullets).
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Old 11-23-2011, 5:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
I agree the data is limited. I run into the same challenge reloading. That's why I take "similar" data and extrapolate.

I noticed very very quickly that jacketed data is nice and linear, so is cast, and even copper data is pretty good. Cast and jacketed aren't that far off, but copper loads aren't even on the radar, and the charges are always very low. The reasons why are well documented, but all I am trying to say is that I do not suggest going anywhere near max jacketed loads with copper bullets. To start low and work up. To expect the pressure signs to start well below max of jacketed.

Maybe a better way to put it would be to say "expect to use less powder to achieve the same velocity/pressure"?
I would like to include a similar note. I love Berger bullets...BUT, they haven't published a reloading manual. OK, so I started working up a load for 30.06 using my Hornady handbook and Berger COAL recomendations (start touching the lands). I laoded a handfull of Berger 168 gr. and a handfull of Hornady 168 gr. (OAL per manual) with identical powder & charges. When I tested the rounds the Hornady bullets had a MV upwards of 200 fps greater than the Bergers. The Bergers were more accurate and flew flatter. But I was stumped until I called the Berger techs. They said that the Hornady .308's may have a slightly greater diameter thereby creating slightly more pressure. I asked if I should bump the powder loads up in the Bergers? The answer was NO! Running COAL long creates more pressure as there is less gas escaping around the bullet with less freebore for the bullet to travel. I ended up satisfied with sub-max loads for the Bergers but they are deadly accurate in my near 40 year old $35.00 Remington 700
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