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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #121  
Old 06-23-2013, 7:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FaRKle! View Post
Please don't buy armor based off of backyard grade testing like in that video. I know MAC has some good information, but that video is FAR from SME-quality on rifle plates...

This is a good thread by a vetted SME. Also, recent test by same individual on AR500 armor... Essentially, if possibly facing higher velocity threats (M193), steel-based plates are a bad idea.
Wow, very informative. I stand quite corrected and will probably be saving up for something like AMI TAC3S plates. Seems you get what you pay for. When it comes to body armor, I think I'd rather drop the extra money for proven protection.
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  #122  
Old 08-04-2013, 2:03 PM
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I just bought a PPE Python LX Series Threat Level II Concealable Body Armor. I think the ballistic material is called Twaron. Is that a good material? Thanks
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  #123  
Old 08-04-2013, 2:14 PM
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The only company I would trust with my Armor is Protech

http://www.protechtactical.com/
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  #124  
Old 08-05-2013, 5:22 AM
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Are you guys familiar with Dragon Skin by Pinnacle Armor? What kind of materials are their plates made of?
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  #125  
Old 08-05-2013, 7:12 PM
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Scandal- Twaron is made by a Dutch company called Azko. They hold the patent on several processes for spinning aramid fabrics into armor, and Dupont actually pays them royalties for these processes. I regard Twaron as equal or slightly better than equivalent Kevlar fabric due to increased fibriliation (more fibers in a given strand), and the ability of Twaron to function better without as much quilt stitching as Kevlar.

Good stuff.

Fidget- They still use laminates in some of their products. It is not as simple as saying this or that company is all good. If I had to pick one it would be US Armor.

Syferstream- While a good concept, Dragonskin had issues with the laminate discs coming unglued due to high heat environments. With further development and product maturity, I think the concept has great potential.
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  #126  
Old 08-07-2013, 10:00 PM
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d-r, are you aware of any personal body armor incorporating boron carbide? You have the potential to be a bipedal tank, no?
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  #127  
Old 08-09-2013, 1:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syferstream View Post
d-r, are you aware of any personal body armor incorporating boron carbide? You have the potential to be a bipedal tank, no?
Of course.

Sintered B4C has actually been in use since Vietnam (the disparagingly named "chicken plates" were B4C). There have been many improvements since then, mostly with regard to increasing the theoretical density (100% being optimal). Depending on how it is processed (hot pressed, sintered, pressureless sintered), it will exhibit different properties. All variations exhibit extreme hardness (third hardest substance in the world behind diamond and boron nitride). It is the go-to material for facing AP rounds, along with SiC (silicon carbide). It is also very low density compared to other ceramic solutions (2.5-2.6 g/cm3 vs. 3.2-3.9 g/cm3 for SiC or Al2O3).

Like all other ceramics, the achillies heel is fragility, more specifically the fracture toughness. B4C has moderate fracture toughness compared to other ceramics, so care is needed in handling. Recently, a company has begun using carbon nanotubes to enhance the fracture toughness of B4C. This makes the ceramic very durable, but the drawback (as with most things nano right now) is the extreme expense.

Until more engineered nano substances arrive on the scene with better cost to weight ratios, B4C, SiC and Al2O3 are here to stay.
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  #128  
Old 08-12-2013, 10:48 PM
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So correct me if I'm wrong, d-r, aren't tank armors composed of boron carbide? How do they overcome the fragility of their armor?

Another thing I'm wondering is how well can ceramic armor defeat repeated hits in the same spot. If say theoretically three rounds were to hit the same spot consecutively will it defeat the ceramic armor?
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  #129  
Old 08-13-2013, 1:01 AM
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Syfer,

Tank armor is a whole 'nother subject. The threats facing tanks vs. humans cannot be scaled reliably. Tank armor is still (even at this juncture) mostly steel (RHA, High Hard, Dual or even Triple Hardness).

The projectiles are either hypervelocity DU or WHA (Tungsten Heavy Alloy) darts at approximately 3Km/s, or even higher velocity molten metal jets from shaped charges. Stopping these threats requires much more mass, and different materials. B4C is a great material, but there are more appropriate materials for tanks (which don't *HAVE* to be light and thin, even though that would be a benefit).

Tank armor by nature cannot be fragile, due to the extreme vibration and impact they are subject to just in the course of road marches. And even with all the whiz-bang tech that we have arrived at, it is still MOSTLY good old fashioned steel.

B4C is a good choice for current body armor because it is lightweight, extremely hard, and is moderately tough. If weight was not a factor, there are much better choices.
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  #130  
Old 08-15-2013, 11:14 AM
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I was looking into buying plates of AR500 with 1/4" of line-x for a spall guard. How would these rate and does the line-x prevent the round splatter?
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  #131  
Old 08-15-2013, 4:13 PM
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Zamble,

AR500 plates are excellent for their price and protection (M80 ball @ 2750 fps and lesser threats). The Line-X does provide some spall mitigation, but it is not a perfect solution. Impacting rounds will ablate the coating, leaving you subject to spalling for subsequent rounds. The Line-X works in conjunction with my spall guards (which are much more resilient to multiple hits).

A good example of truck bed liner and how it reacts to impacts can be found on page 3 (WITH THANKS TO VFLORES915 FOR USE OF PICTURE):


Last edited by d-r; 08-15-2013 at 10:19 PM..
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  #132  
Old 08-15-2013, 4:45 PM
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Regarding soft armor longevity.

I understand soft armor has a finite life.

Is this based on a set period of time or is it more from the wear and tear that daily LE / Mil wearers undergo?

I have had some SA since 2009 that I have worn maybe 3-4 times max just to get a feel for it and wonder if they are still GTG?

.
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  #133  
Old 08-15-2013, 10:17 PM
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All equipment made by the hand of man has a finite life. The good news is, woven Kevlar can, if properly maintained, last 25+ years and still be GTG. There are actually tests of older armor performing better than brand new.

The biggest killers of woven aramid armor are UV (Sunlight and flourescent bulbs) and mold/mildew/bacteria caused by sweating heavily and then putting your armor in a dark space. The beasties will begin to compromise the strength of the fibers. Best way to keep your armor from deteriorating is to treat it well. Rinse it in baking soda to neutralize any acids, then a very mild detergent. Rinse again and let it dry completely. Keep it out of the sun, or bright artificial light. The carrier will keep the UV under control.

My bump in the night armor has main panels from 1985. I have utter confidence in them, since they have been tested extensively by myself and many others. Like anything else, YMMV, but as long as the armor was not mistreated, it will last a LOOONG time.
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  #134  
Old 08-23-2013, 2:02 AM
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Has anyone purchased a plate carrier from Ar500.com I have been searching and searching for a thorough review.
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  #135  
Old 08-23-2013, 6:11 AM
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Bulletproofme shot up a 25 year old panel and it did just fine. They have pics on their site.

Ordered a test panel from them just one have a vest with out the carrier. These panels are either really old or in bad condition. Meant for test shooting not wearing. I shoot it with lots of shot gun buck shot and 9. Held up just fine.
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  #136  
Old 08-23-2013, 7:37 PM
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Is anyone here familiar with any liquid armors? I heard of one being developed by BAE, and I think the US military researched liquid armors as well. Are there any liquid armors currently on the market?
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  #137  
Old 08-26-2013, 7:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindwip View Post
Bulletproofme shot up a 25 year old panel and it did just fine. They have pics on their site.

Ordered a test panel from them just one have a vest with out the carrier. These panels are either really old or in bad condition. Meant for test shooting not wearing. I shoot it with lots of shot gun buck shot and 9. Held up just fine.
Yes, their "test" panels are in rough shape. If you want ones in good shape let me know.
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  #138  
Old 08-26-2013, 8:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syferstream View Post
Is anyone here familiar with any liquid armors? I heard of one being developed by BAE, and I think the US military researched liquid armors as well. Are there any liquid armors currently on the market?
STF (shear thickening fluid) or non-newtonian solid armors rely on the property of dilatance, which means a shear force (impact) will transform the material reversibly from a liquid to a solid.

This material received a lot of attention about 5-10 years ago as a possible knife/stab armor for clothing, but has been plagued with problems, such as how to keep the properties from washing out of the fabric. It currently finds a place in sports equipment and protective gear. 3D0 and Zoombang are currently making a gel-like foam material that is used in sports and industrial protection articles.

While there is a lot of potential, the problem of containment of the liquid are currently slowing it's adoption.
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  #139  
Old 09-07-2013, 7:10 AM
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Default Midwest Armor Guardian IV Level IV Plates Test & Review (& viewer discount code)





I recently tested the Guardian IV ceramic level IV plates from Midwest Armor. They were designed to be a reasonably priced plate while still maintaining level IV protection. They retail for $199 but Midwest Armor was gracious enough to offer my viewers with a discount code of "MGG" available on their website. With that code you'll get each plate for $125 (pretty good price for level IV protection). In the video below I shot them up with 9mm, 40 S&W, 5.56x45, 7.62x39, 5.45x39, and 7.62x54r. Here's what I found:

Pros:
-Stopped all rounds
-Made in the USA
-Guaranteed for 5 years
-10''x12'' and 1'' thick
-Curved for comfort
-The shoulder areas are cut for shouldering long guns
-Each plate weighs 7.3 pounds

Cons:
-Really the only one I can think of is the fact that it only comes in one size.

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  #140  
Old 09-09-2013, 8:26 AM
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Plouff, thanks for the review. Are these non-fragile? If not, another con (like most ceramic composite plates) is that they are subject to breakage with handling.
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  #141  
Old 09-13-2013, 6:35 PM
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D-R you mentioned earlier you were excited about the Flash Bainite, do you still think its the way to go? How about this with the included spall sheild http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Best-AR5...item3a80662894
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  #142  
Old 09-14-2013, 5:26 AM
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Has anyone looked at infadelbodyarmor.com. infadel body armor seeme promising. Has anti-spawl coating but they are heavy (8lbs each) and maybe a little on the pricey side.
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  #143  
Old 09-14-2013, 8:43 AM
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Toyotaguy- I *really* like the Bainite plates. Their spall covers work just fine, with tradeoffs (as do all the current anti-spall solutions).

Here is a breakdown:

Bainite spall covers- Good spall absorption, heavier, thicker, metallic, semi-sacrificial (multiple hits), medium-high price point, only available on Bainite

Fabric Spallguards- Good spall absorption, thinner, lighter, non-metallic, moderately sacrificial, (multiple hits) medium-high price point, any plate:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=791940

Rubber coating (Line-X, Rhinolining)- Good spall absorption, durable, thicker, heavier, non-metallic, sacrificial coating (4-6 hits max), medium price point, any plate

Based on your needs, select the solution that works best for you. There is more than one way to skin a catfish.

Buckshot- Those are just coated Targetman plates marked up, go with either AR500 or Targetman with coating for the same thing but less expense. The PMAGs for $45 should help calibrate where their prices are.

Last edited by d-r; 11-07-2013 at 9:42 AM..
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  #144  
Old 09-14-2013, 9:12 AM
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Upon evaluation, I cannot recommend any current armor containing Carbon Nanotubes. All armor systems using this material currently rely on Dyneema or Spectra laminates behind one layer of CNT. At such time as the material is used with woven Aramid, I will be able to give my stamp of approval.
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  #145  
Old 09-14-2013, 9:26 AM
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Stab and cut resistant armor-

It is far past time to include information on stab and cut resistant armor. This will incorporate all current options.

****CUT AND STAB ARMOR******

Ballistic armor is designed to stop high velocity projectiles, while cut/stab armor is designed to stop very slow, sharp and pointed objects from cutting/piercing the wearer's skin.

This type of armor is a continuation of the most ancient forms of personal armor, which has seen the use of bone, fabric, leather, and finally metal. It is interesting that the current state of technology has returned to the use of fabric as the primary defense against thrusting and cutting implements.

As it has been for millennia, there are always trade-offs in terms of protection vs. weight/concealability. The most protective suits, while they can be made with extremely good ergonomics, will tend to be hotter, heavier, and far from low-profile. Semi-rigid and rigid armors, which include forms of metal mesh (traditional "maille"), interlocking articulated plates (metal or metal/composite), lamellar, or solid plates are very efficient at stopping cuts and thrusts. Their weight and heat burden tend to be fairly high. Materials range from stainless steel, titanium, to rigid para-aramid (Kevlar/Twaron).

Fabric materials are currently used in the majority of concealable stab/cut vests. These include the familiar materials Kevlar, Twaron, and Spectra. As before, UHMWPE laminates should be eschewed, even though they may provide better numbers in terms of weight. The known weaknesses of this material outweigh any benefits. Generally, the Para-Aramids are woven, similar to their ballistic counterparts, but are much tighter weave. This is to prevent spikes from pushing the fibers aside. The number of layers is directly proportional to the protection levels, which are rated in a similar way to ballistic standards. They are:

KR1/SP1 (Knife Resistant Level I/Spike Protection Level I) - Lowest level, resists knife thrusts and spike stabs at 24J up to 36J
KR2/SP2 (Knife Resistant Level II/Spike Protection Level II) Medium level, resists knife thrusts and spike stabs at 33J up to 50J
KR3/SP3 (Knife Resistant Level III/Spike Protection Level III) High Level, resists knife thrusts and spike stabs at 43J up to 65J

Level I armor is generally the best choice if wearing for long periods and/or concealed.

Level II is a good compromise between concealability and protection.

Level III is for short periods of time, and is not generally concealable.

The test protocol involves dropping a weighted sabot (weighing about four and a half pounds) from different heights with the test blade or spike onto the armor sample. Up to 7mm of penetration is allowed at the minimum force, and up to 20mm at the maximum force. Any greater penetration at either energy will fail the armor. There is *no* penetration permitted for the spike test at any energy level. A single sample armor may be subjected to over 30 drops, with no overpenetration permitted.

I am sure a lot of folks are wondering about how well knife/stab armor performs against bullets. The answer is "not as well as a dedicated ballistic vest." K/S armor is engineered towards a very different threat compared to handgun rounds. Knives, spikes, and syringes have a very small frontal area compared with handgun bullets, and as such, require different materials and construction methods to be used. There are dual and triple rated vests (ballistic + knife and ballistic + knife + spike), but they are generally VERY expensive, and heavier/thicker than dedicated armors. If you absolutely have to protect against multiple threat types, try to wear before purchasing to ensure it is comfortable.

Last edited by d-r; 10-22-2013 at 8:02 AM..
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  #146  
Old 09-28-2013, 12:26 PM
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Looking to get some rifle protection primarily for classes and secondarily for SHTF. Since I don't want the expense to yearly check for cracks, nor do I want to run the risk of tripping and throwing away an expensive plate, I'm looking more to steel than ceramic. Are there good ceramics out there that can stand rough handling that isn't astronomically expensive?

Would you recommend Lvl 3 or 4?

I've found a couple of the following plates that seems interesting. What are the consensus on them? Are there other choices I should consider?

BPme plates seems to be cheaper than other options. What are your thoughts on those?
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  #147  
Old 09-30-2013, 9:55 PM
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Yes, ceramic plates can be made insensitive to shock and impact.

Level 3 spec is 6 rounds of M80 ball @ 2750 fps in a 6" circle.

Level 4 spec is ONE round of M2 AP @ 2800 fps.

The decision is based on what you feel is a bigger issue for your specific anticipated threat.

Infidel armor is identical to AR500 and Targetman, just more expensive.

Targetman and AR500 plates are quite good, and inexpensive. The Targetman ceramic plates will exhibit the same issues with fragility as nearly all monolithic or mosaic plates currently fielded.

BPme has ok prices on rifle plates, though you can find better deals if you look.
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  #148  
Old 10-02-2013, 7:16 PM
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Here is a link to TAP GAMMA III plates at a great price (no connection to seller):

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=652979
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  #149  
Old 10-22-2013, 7:57 AM
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Updated 10-20-13, added Cut and Stab armor info in post #146
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  #150  
Old 11-06-2013, 3:19 PM
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D-r any recommendations for helmets.. Seems the choices are limited.
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  #151  
Old 11-06-2013, 3:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-r View Post
Infidel armor is identical to AR500 and Targetman, just more expensive.

Targetman and AR500 plates are quite good, and inexpensive. The Targetman ceramic plates will exhibit the same issues with fragility as nearly all monolithic or mosaic plates currently fielded.
Question - Unless things have changed since you posted that, the Infidel plates and AR500 plates do seem to be identical with the exception of their spall guards. The Line-X of AR500 seems fairly wonky when compared to what they are using on the Infidel plates.

I'd like to pick up a set of Steel Plates but want something with good spall protection. Advice?
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  #152  
Old 11-06-2013, 4:05 PM
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Check toyotaguys link on 9/14/13.. Flash bainite with spall covers.
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  #153  
Old 11-06-2013, 4:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifeon2whls View Post
Question - Unless things have changed since you posted that, the Infidel plates and AR500 plates do seem to be identical with the exception of their spall guards. The Line-X of AR500 seems fairly wonky when compared to what they are using on the Infidel plates.

I'd like to pick up a set of Steel Plates but want something with good spall protection. Advice?
I picked up a set from this guy: http://www.ar500-targets.com/Default.asp

Hes a calgunner, he has a thread in the commercial section and good pricing. I tested mine when I got them, and if they take more rounds than I tested them with, I probably am not supposed to walk away from that situation
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  #154  
Old 11-07-2013, 9:39 AM
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On a budget- A used PASGT helmet with Oregon Aero padding/suspension upgrade will do in a pinch.

If you are looking for the best, an MSA TC2001 or 2002 would be my recommendation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smashycrashy View Post
D-r any recommendations for helmets.. Seems the choices are limited.
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  #155  
Old 11-07-2013, 9:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smashycrashy View Post
Check toyotaguys link on 9/14/13.. Flash bainite with spall covers.
Read post #144 on the different spall guard options as well.
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  #156  
Old 11-07-2013, 9:43 AM
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Thanks!
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  #157  
Old 11-12-2013, 3:35 PM
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It appears AR500 Armor level III plates do not stop XM193 (though stop XM855). Are there any other inexpensive plates that can stop it?
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  #158  
Old 11-12-2013, 3:51 PM
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The flash bainite ar500 claims it can stop xm193
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  #159  
Old 11-12-2013, 10:17 PM
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How is the us Palm level 4 stuff they have forsale now? It is about 499.99.
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Old 11-13-2013, 8:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidimus View Post
It appears AR500 Armor level III plates do not stop XM193 (though stop XM855). Are there any other inexpensive plates that can stop it?
You might check out the plates by MAINGUN Surplus. They are Mil-Spec HHS (High Hardness Steel). At the given thickness, they should stop M193 at 3000+ fps. Plus, they are extremely affordable. After testing, I may be recommending these as the baseline steel plate.
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