Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > INTERESTS AND ACTIVITIES > Ammo and Reloading
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Ammo and Reloading Factory Ammunition, Reloading, Components, Load Data and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-25-2011, 9:29 PM
wood_fly wood_fly is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 17
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default Brass: No bulet tension after resize

Perhaps NOOB Question: Need some guidance

Setup: Buy box of Federall GMM 308. Shoot. Save brass. Clean brass

Full length resize with a .336 bushing (Hornady press and die)
Trim, Chamfer, flash hole debur, primer pocket clean
Reload with 43.4 gr IMR 4064, Fed 210M primer and 168 gr SMK

Shoot and repeat several times

Some brass is on it's 9th go with no stress fractures showing. Note, I do substitude neck sizing every other cycle or so.

New event: After sizing, bullet SLIDES into case - no grip from the sides. About 15/100 brass are still at 336 on the outside, but there just isn't any tension on the bullet ... so now I presort by those that still have some grip and ... well, save the others until I figure out what to do with them.

Thoughts on what happened or what to do?

Thank you,
Tim
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-25-2011, 9:44 PM
bruceflinch's Avatar
bruceflinch bruceflinch is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Gun Point, KA
Posts: 39,725
iTrader: 66 / 100%
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Tagged! Inquiring minds want to know.

I shoot almost an identical load.
__________________
Actually I only started collecting Milsurps 3 years ago. I think I might own about 24...They're cheaper than guns that will most likely never get the opportunity to kill somebody...

Boycott Guns Fishing & Other Stuff in Vacaville!

Tis better to have Trolled & lost, Than to never have Trolled, at all.

Member: NRA, CRPA, IDPA, Diablo Rod & Gun, Local 39
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-25-2011, 9:50 PM
brian01tj's Avatar
brian01tj brian01tj is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Riverside
Posts: 470
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

inconsistent neck tension will really mess with shot consistency. federal brass isnt really the best for reloading. if 15 out of 100 are at .336, what do the others measure out to? or are you saying that they are all at .336 but only 15 wont hold the bullet? my guess is that if you measured the inside diameter you would find that your neck thickness is not consistent and its too thin, hence not holding the bullet.

I would invest in new winchester brass or better (lapua etc)
__________________

http://www.socalprecision.com/


Didn't get your question answered here? Check out our forum to discuss your precision rifle... http://www.socalprecisionforum.com/
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:10 PM
AlliedArmory's Avatar
AlliedArmory AlliedArmory is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: SGV, CA
Posts: 10,004
iTrader: 307 / 100%
Default

The neck wall thickness thins after multiple times sized. Remeasure with a ball micrometer and use the appropriate bushing.

I would separate the brass with how many firings each has. Different neck tension can effect consistency quite a bit.
__________________
http://www.alliedarmory.com/
California Business - No Credit Card Fees - $5.95 Flat Rate Shipping on Any Order

Deal of the Week - Updated Every Monday


http://www.alliedbrassprocessing.com/
Professional Brass Processing Service of your 223/5.56, 300 AAC Blackout and 9MM brass at an affordable price
PM me about local dropoff and pickups
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:13 PM
Sub95's Avatar
Sub95 Sub95 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SB
Posts: 1,146
iTrader: 13 / 100%
Default

called workhardened brass.

as you keep using the brass it will stretch, you fl size/neck size you trim it ect the neck, you are Workhardening the neck, annealed "soft" brass will not "bounce back". It is not "springy". Work hardened brass is "springy. so you would need to anneal those case necks if you want to use them again.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-26-2011, 1:02 AM
AMProducts AMProducts is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 53
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Sub95 called it. Anneal, or go to a smaller bushing. Without an anneal your brass will die soon.

Try the "tip pan" method, also, get some tempilaq in the 650-700F range.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
__________________
Type 10/02 Manufacturer
Author of the Ammo Blog http://bulletmaker.blogspot.com
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-26-2011, 7:24 AM
wood_fly wood_fly is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 17
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Thanks for all the thoughts. I think 9 reloads is quite a bit. Perhaps it has reached the end of it's useful life.

Time to purchase some "purpose built" brass I think and stop trying to recycle the Fed GMM.

To briano1tj, yes, they are all 336 on the outside, but some just have thinner walls by this point so the bullet just slides downt he tube - makes bullet seating easier <g>.

So whose brass would you use? I know Lapua is good - if darn expensive.
Tim

Last edited by wood_fly; 10-26-2011 at 7:27 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-26-2011, 8:13 AM
Latigo's Avatar
Latigo Latigo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 1,814
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Go here www.gibrass.com and ask for Jeff.
Ask for Lake City headstamped "LR". Outperforms Lapua in our very extensive testing, but it must be LR, and not just LC. LC is nothing more than once fired machine gun brass.
LR is the designated Long Range used by the Army and Marine Corps.

__________________
Latigo

An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit...... he set in de bushes..... he watch an' he wait... lay low an' he don' say nuffin'.

www.swissproductsllc.com
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-26-2011, 10:05 AM
Sub95's Avatar
Sub95 Sub95 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SB
Posts: 1,146
iTrader: 13 / 100%
Default

if you have a small propane torch a drill with a socket that fits the case and a bowl of water you can Anneal them in just a few minutes.

What type of shooting are you doing? target,paper,best groups and at what range 100 yards 600?

Most will use winchester brass if they dont use Lapua. i use winchester for my .308
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-26-2011, 10:55 AM
Latigo's Avatar
Latigo Latigo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 1,814
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

What's the water for? Don't say quenching, because that's an old wives tale. The only thing water does is cool it so you can touch it sooner. It does nothing whatsover to the brass.
__________________
Latigo

An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit...... he set in de bushes..... he watch an' he wait... lay low an' he don' say nuffin'.

www.swissproductsllc.com
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-26-2011, 11:48 AM
runway1 runway1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,600
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlliedArmory View Post
The neck wall thickness thins after multiple times sized. Remeasure with a ball micrometer and use the appropriate bushing.
This is exactly what happened. You shoot/size/trim....repeat. You're pulling out the neck (like stretching out pizza dough) and trimming during this sequence, right? Where does that excess trim material come from??

You start with a set amount of material. It's being stretched during the shoot/size process. The neck is getting thinner and thinner. 9 times?? Wow, that should kill a piece of brass.

(edit) P.S. Annealing will help with temper and malleability but doesn't give you any more material than you started with. You simply stretched and trimmed the neck enough times - you're out of material. If you had crack/craze issues, then annealing would help.

Last edited by runway1; 10-26-2011 at 11:52 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-26-2011, 11:56 AM
Sub95's Avatar
Sub95 Sub95 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SB
Posts: 1,146
iTrader: 13 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latigo View Post
What's the water for? Don't say quenching, because that's an old wives tale. The only thing water does is cool it so you can touch it sooner. It does nothing whatsover to the brass.
Yes i know this.

who wants to figure out a safe place to put hot brass tell it cools down? i dont, just easier and safer to throw them in water especially with someone who has never done it before.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-26-2011, 1:36 PM
Latigo's Avatar
Latigo Latigo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 1,814
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

So do I, Sub95
__________________
Latigo

An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit...... he set in de bushes..... he watch an' he wait... lay low an' he don' say nuffin'.

www.swissproductsllc.com
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-26-2011, 2:03 PM
NoJoke's Avatar
NoJoke NoJoke is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,539
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMProducts View Post
Sub95 called it. Anneal, or go to a smaller bushing. Without an anneal your brass will die soon.

Try the "tip pan" method, also, get some tempilaq in the 650-700F range.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
This hobby just keeps getting cooler!
__________________

NO ISSUE / MAY ISSUE / SHALL ISSUE - LTC progress over time since 1986

Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-26-2011, 6:48 PM
Nessal's Avatar
Nessal Nessal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 2,170
iTrader: 34 / 100%
Default

On the 9th go without annealing? You can anneal by hand. It's easy and I do it all the time. Just get a propane torch with a pencil tip. Set the torch at a 1" flame. Hold the head of the case with your fingers and rotate it with the tip of the flame at the bottom of the case shoulder. Once you feel the brass starting to get warm, you drop it into a metal pan ASAP. If you are burning your fingers then you are keeping it in the flame too long. There is a small window for this. You'll get the hang of it. It's not that hard and you don't need to invest $400 into an annealing machine. Just takes some experience.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-26-2011, 7:23 PM
AMProducts AMProducts is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 53
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latigo View Post
What's the water for? Don't say quenching, because that's an old wives tale. The only thing water does is cool it so you can touch it sooner. It does nothing whatsover to the brass.
The water does two things 1) prevents you from burning yourself 2) prevents you from accidentally annealing the body/web/head. A soft case neck isn't really dangerous, a soft case head can be dangerous to eyes, health, and the firearm.
__________________
Type 10/02 Manufacturer
Author of the Ammo Blog http://bulletmaker.blogspot.com
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-26-2011, 8:51 PM
bruceflinch's Avatar
bruceflinch bruceflinch is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Gun Point, KA
Posts: 39,725
iTrader: 66 / 100%
Blog Entries: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nessal View Post
On the 9th go without annealing? You can anneal by hand. It's easy and I do it all the time. Just get a propane torch with a pencil tip. Set the torch at a 1" flame. Hold the head of the case with your fingers and rotate it with the tip of the flame at the bottom of the case shoulder. Once you feel the brass starting to get warm, you drop it into a metal pan ASAP. If you are burning your fingers then you are keeping it in the flame too long. There is a small window for this. You'll get the hang of it. It's not that hard and you don't need to invest $400 into an annealing machine. Just takes some experience.
Sorry I had to laugh. Brought to mind the old saying, " You get wisdom from experience & you get experience from screwing up. ( & burning your fingers)

Good Thread!
__________________
Actually I only started collecting Milsurps 3 years ago. I think I might own about 24...They're cheaper than guns that will most likely never get the opportunity to kill somebody...

Boycott Guns Fishing & Other Stuff in Vacaville!

Tis better to have Trolled & lost, Than to never have Trolled, at all.

Member: NRA, CRPA, IDPA, Diablo Rod & Gun, Local 39
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-26-2011, 10:27 PM
Nessal's Avatar
Nessal Nessal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 2,170
iTrader: 34 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceflinch View Post
Sorry I had to laugh. Brought to mind the old saying, " You get wisdom from experience & you get experience from screwing up. ( & burning your fingers)

Good Thread!


Tell me about it!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-27-2011, 5:29 AM
Latigo's Avatar
Latigo Latigo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 1,814
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMProducts View Post
The water does two things 1) prevents you from burning yourself 2) prevents you from accidentally annealing the body/web/head. A soft case neck isn't really dangerous, a soft case head can be dangerous to eyes, health, and the firearm.
It prevents you from accidentally annealing the body/web/head? How does that work??
__________________
Latigo

An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit...... he set in de bushes..... he watch an' he wait... lay low an' he don' say nuffin'.

www.swissproductsllc.com
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-27-2011, 10:01 AM
Sub95's Avatar
Sub95 Sub95 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SB
Posts: 1,146
iTrader: 13 / 100%
Default

dissipates the heat away from the lower case so it does not get alot of heat from annealing the neck.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-27-2011, 10:26 AM
Whiterabbit Whiterabbit is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 5,028
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Default

not an annealing expert, but neat trick about water. Fill a dixie cup half way and torch the bottom. The water keeps the paper at 100 degrees or less, and you won't burn the cup.

Neat.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:43 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.