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  #1  
Old 10-08-2011, 1:24 PM
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Default "It's not on the C&R ATF list"

Ugh. Some dealer was selling a 1940, unmolested, non-rearsenaled type 1 MAS 36 on Gunbroker I would have liked to grab (even though I already have a beautiful example), but when I contacted the seller before bidding to make sure he ships to FFL 03 holders (I always do, and never had a problem until now with CA-compliant C&Rs), the guy replies "I take it C & R [apparently, that guy is not sure what a FFL 03 is]. Generally No. If gun is on list and you send supporting info as such to document with Lic , M. [the shop owner, apparently] will make a determination. Best to have FFL ready as back up."

Auction ended a few hours ago, so so much for waiting until the boss gets back on Tuesday. So even though the rifle went for almost half what it was worth (those guys didn't know what they had in store, obviously), I didn't bid. Even with a $75 transfer fee, it would have been a sweet deal. But screw it - to me it's a matter of principle. They didn't deserve my money.

I tried to explain to the guy that it didn't have to be on the ATF list. I sent him a link to the ATF C&R web page:

Quote:
Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age.
Nope. Didn't help.

The guy replied: " I reviewed the provision on the age, but it sounds like its subject to interpretation. M. has the license and needs to make the decision and be comfortable with it. After all he has to explain and document when inspection time comes."

Ugh. This guy was the contact for the auction, and completely ignorant of C&R regulation. If I hear from them again, I'll make sure they know they lost quite a bit of money because they don't know crap about C&R regulation.
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Old 10-08-2011, 1:33 PM
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Did you show him this entry on the C&R list...

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All Original military bolt action and semiautomatic rifles mfd. between 1899 and 1946.
He would probably say that was subject to interpretation too.
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Old 10-08-2011, 1:34 PM
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Did you show him this entry on the C&R list...

He would probably say that was subject to interpretation too.
Yes, and I also pointed to him that ALL MAS 36s are more than 50 years old. No luck. I was obviously dealing with an incompetent low level employee who's been made in charge of the online auction stuff at that gun shop, probably because the old man doesn't understand the Interwebs. I guess that shop is full of fail.
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Old 10-08-2011, 2:00 PM
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My favorite are the folks who won't ship to any C&R holder for any reason. Then there are the folks who won't ship to California for any reason. Then there are the folks who won't ship an antique handgun to California. I'm always surprised to see people are so unable to have the facts laid out for them, just like you did, and then when you offer them money to complete a 100% legal transaction, they say no. Sadly the ATF and CA DOJ have made the waters so confusing that nobody wants to deal with them, which is sadly exactly what they wanted.

And then there are the folks who can read and follow the law. And those folks get my money.

I feel your pain. Sucks to see a deal go by because, as Herm Cain says, "Stupid people are ruining America."
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Old 10-08-2011, 2:08 PM
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Originally Posted by scobun View Post
My favorite are the folks who won't ship to any C&R holder for any reason. Then there are the folks who won't ship to California for any reason. Then there are the folks who won't ship an antique handgun to California. I'm always surprised to see people are so unable to have the facts laid out for them, just like you did, and then when you offer them money to complete a 100% legal transaction, they say no. Sadly the ATF and CA DOJ have made the waters so confusing that nobody wants to deal with them, which is sadly exactly what they wanted.

And then there are the folks who can read and follow the law. And those folks get my money.

I feel your pain. Sucks to see a deal go by because, as Herm Cain says, "Stupid people are ruining America."
Here it wasn't even a California issue. It's people who won't ship to C&R holders, period. So much for getting a license.

Funny how the guy goes "Better have a FFL as a backup."

I felt like telling him "You idiot, I AM a FFL. And it makes me eligible to receive exactly this category of firearm."
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Old 10-08-2011, 2:09 PM
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Originally Posted by scobun View Post
My favorite are the folks who won't ship to any C&R holder for any reason. Then there are the folks who won't ship to California for any reason. Then there are the folks who won't ship an antique handgun to California. I'm always surprised to see people are so unable to have the facts laid out for them, just like you did, and then when you offer them money to complete a 100% legal transaction, they say no. Sadly the ATF and CA DOJ have made the waters so confusing that nobody wants to deal with them, which is sadly exactly what they wanted.

And then there are the folks who can read and follow the law. And those folks get my money.

I feel your pain. Sucks to see a deal go by because, as Herm Cain says, "Stupid people are ruining America."
I think they just want to punish us because maybe their afraid our stupid laws will spread? Wait, many of them already have. Look at many of the vehicle regulations.
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Old 10-08-2011, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by a1c View Post
Here it wasn't even a California issue. It's people who won't ship to C&R holders, period. So much for getting a license.

Funny how the guy goes "Better have a FFL as a backup."

I felt like telling him "You idiot, I AM a FFL. And it makes me eligible to receive exactly this category of firearm."
Amazing how far the ability to think critically has fallen. The first line of the little note on the bottom half reads:

"Dear Licensee,

Enclosed you will find your Federal Firearms License. This license entitles you..."

Maybe you just need to hand-write the word "back-up" on top of another copy and sent it along to him. It sucks to miss a deal due to herp-derp. What did that MAS sell for?
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Old 10-08-2011, 4:38 PM
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Originally Posted by scobun View Post
My favorite are the folks who won't ship to any C&R holder for any reason. Then there are the folks who won't ship to California for any reason. Then there are the folks who won't ship an antique handgun to California. I'm always surprised to see people are so unable to have the facts laid out for them, just like you did, and then when you offer them money to complete a 100% legal transaction, they say no. Sadly the ATF and CA DOJ have made the waters so confusing that nobody wants to deal with them, which is sadly exactly what they wanted.

And then there are the folks who can read and follow the law. And those folks get my money.

I feel your pain. Sucks to see a deal go by because, as Herm Cain says, "Stupid people are ruining America."
I just noticed last night that Sarco says California & New Jersey – No C&R sales at all.
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Old 10-08-2011, 5:04 PM
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I just noticed last night that Sarco says California & New Jersey – No C&R sales at all.
Is it really that hard for these people to read a couple pages of C&R regulation?
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Old 10-08-2011, 5:19 PM
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I'll bet the kid the OP communicated with was put in charge of the gunbroker auctions because he was the only Bubba in the store with an email address...
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Old 10-08-2011, 5:32 PM
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Is it really that hard for these people to read a couple pages of C&R regulation?
I was going to email and ask why, but I couldn't compose a message that didn't evolve into vulgarity.

Nice Berner in your avatar.
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Old 10-09-2011, 8:47 AM
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I don't blame him with the current BATF. Why buy trouble? I wouldn't trust the government to be reasonable, think critically or realistically. See Gibson guitars for example.

For one cheap rifle it isn't worth "interpreting" a government regulation that is subject to any different interpretation. Even if you are absolutely correct you can be screwed. And saying "We all must fight - is easy if you are not the one being put out of business."
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Old 10-09-2011, 9:34 AM
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I don't blame him with the current BATF. Why buy trouble? I wouldn't trust the government to be reasonable, think critically or realistically. See Gibson guitars for example.

For one cheap rifle it isn't worth "interpreting" a government regulation that is subject to any different interpretation. Even if you are absolutely correct you can be screwed. And saying "We all must fight - is easy if you are not the one being put out of business."
The law is perfectly clear. Blaming the ATF for one's ignorance is ridiculous.
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Old 10-09-2011, 10:19 AM
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If we were talking about an Evil Black Rifle or even an SKS, then I could see how making sure you are compliant with both Federal and State law might make some retailers say it's not worth the risk. But rifles that are clearly C&R without needing to worry about features or doing extensive research to determine year of manufacture should be easy.

In this specific case, if the seller *knew* it was a 1940 MAS 36, then I don't see why there should have been a problem. However, if the seller was (perhaps) trying to pass-off a 1977 MAS 36 as a 1940, then I suppose he should be worried.

Retailers (not just gun dealers) want the exposure and increased sales from doing business on the internet - but they are all too often unprepared for the added complexity that national or international sales may bring.

Just to make this a political rant (this is Calguns!), if California keeps trying to collect sales tax from out of state sellers, I suspect we may see even more retailers simply choosing not to do business with California buyers. Amazon appears to be caving, and that is not good news for out of state retailers...
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2952...rnia-sales-tax
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Old 10-09-2011, 3:01 PM
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If we were talking about an Evil Black Rifle or even an SKS, then I could see how making sure you are compliant with both Federal and State law might make some retailers say it's not worth the risk. But rifles that are clearly C&R without needing to worry about features or doing extensive research to determine year of manufacture should be easy.

In this specific case, if the seller *knew* it was a 1940 MAS 36, then I don't see why there should have been a problem. However, if the seller was (perhaps) trying to pass-off a 1977 MAS 36 as a 1940, then I suppose he should be worried.
MAS 36s stopped being manufactured in the early 50s. They are all C&Rs. What's insulting here too is that the very stock of that rifle was stamped with the month and date of manufacture. That and the serial number (all matching) was more than enough to determine its age.

The guy in charge was obviously NOT in charge, and ill-informed about the law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybob_jcv View Post
Retailers (not just gun dealers) want the exposure and increased sales from doing business on the internet - but they are all too often unprepared for the added complexity that national or international sales may bring.

Just to make this a political rant (this is Calguns!), if California keeps trying to collect sales tax from out of state sellers, I suspect we may see even more retailers simply choosing not to do business with California buyers. Amazon appears to be caving, and that is not good news for out of state retailers...
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2952...rnia-sales-tax
The state is only trying to get sales tax from retailers that have operations in the state. Amazon caved because they might have lost in court - they DO have operations in California, even though they are not directly involved to their retail business - yet it would be easy to link their cloud or streaming California-based operations to their general business.

The state won't collect tax from out-of-state retailers that don't have operations in California. YOU are supposed to pay the Tax Board that tax yourself anyway. And trust me, I know someone who got a nice letter from Sacramento reminding them of just that after they purchased an expensive item online.

Note that if you think this is a California issue, it's not. Some other states have been forcing online businesses to collect tax, and some in US Congress are pushing for federal legislation.
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Old 10-09-2011, 6:26 PM
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MAS 36s stopped being manufactured in the early 50s. They are all C&Rs. What's insulting here too is that the very stock of that rifle was stamped with the month and date of manufacture. That and the serial number (all matching) was more than enough to determine its age.

The guy in charge was obviously NOT in charge, and ill-informed about the law.



The state is only trying to get sales tax from retailers that have operations in the state. Amazon caved because they might have lost in court - they DO have operations in California, even though they are not directly involved to their retail business - yet it would be easy to link their cloud or streaming California-based operations to their general business.

The state won't collect tax from out-of-state retailers that don't have operations in California. YOU are supposed to pay the Tax Board that tax yourself anyway. And trust me, I know someone who got a nice letter from Sacramento reminding them of just that after they purchased an expensive item online.

Note that if you think this is a California issue, it's not. Some other states have been forcing online businesses to collect tax, and some in US Congress are pushing for federal legislation.

Sorry - I misread my info on the MAS 36 - I misread "in-service until 1978" for the manufacture dates.

I'm not a proponent of sales tax in the best of times - I hate paying it on purchases I make and I hated collecting it when I had a retail business. But, I'm not trying to derail this thread, so I'll stop here....
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Old 10-10-2011, 8:43 AM
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The law is perfectly clear. Blaming the ATF for one's ignorance is ridiculous.
I guess you don't deal with the Government in the Courts very often. You might hear "perfectly clear " from both sides arguing a law all day long. It is what the CEOs of Gibson guitars and Boeing said before spending hundreds of thousands in legal fees.

Blaming someone for being safe in his business is not only ignorant but plain stupid if you ever ran a business.

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Old 10-10-2011, 5:54 PM
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It would be nice if you can share to us the outfit that has there head up there ***. That way, for us that use GunBroker.com we can put a red flag on them.
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Old 10-11-2011, 11:52 AM
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You'll find another one. They tend to be in pretty good condition, as they were only dropped once.
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Old 10-11-2011, 12:19 PM
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I guess you don't deal with the Government in the Courts very often. You might hear "perfectly clear " from both sides arguing a law all day long. It is what the CEOs of Gibson guitars and Boeing said before spending hundreds of thousands in legal fees.
My wife is an attorney. For the government. I'm somewhat familiar how it goes.

There are grey areas. This ain't one.

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Blaming someone for being safe in his business is not only ignorant but plain stupid if you ever ran a business.
I run my own business and consult for others.

There is a difference between playing it safe and being ignorant and incompetent. When someone is that thick, they probably shouldn't be dealing in firearms.
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Old 10-11-2011, 12:24 PM
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You'll find another one. They tend to be in pretty good condition, as they were only dropped once.
Yeah, you find type 1s here and there, but very rarely under $200. They're not nearly as common as rearsenaled type 2s or conversions though, which CAI imported by the boatloads.
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Old 10-12-2011, 4:12 PM
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My wife is an attorney. For the government. I'm somewhat familiar how it goes.

There are grey areas. This ain't one.



I run my own business and consult for others.

There is a difference between playing it safe and being ignorant and incompetent. When someone is that thick, they probably shouldn't be dealing in firearms.
Just what Gibson and Boeing said about guitars and manufacturing plants. They were as certain as you and wife apparently are.
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Old 10-12-2011, 4:55 PM
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Just what Gibson and Boeing said about guitars and manufacturing plants. They were as certain as you and wife apparently are.
Have you read the ATF statutes we've been discussing here?

Are you saying that all the dealers who've been shipping me and others MAS 36s over the past few years are crazy and not being safe?
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