Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > GENERAL DISCUSSION > General gun discussions
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

General gun discussions This is a place to lounge and discuss firearm related topics with other forum members.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-04-2011, 7:23 PM
NYY's Avatar
NYY NYY is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 1,756
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default No hollowpoints in war?

Okay i dont know if this could get heated or not... but. Seriously.. why are hollow points not legal to use in war.. ITS WAR! is anyone against this? really. Im puzzled...
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-04-2011, 7:27 PM
M1A Rifleman's Avatar
M1A Rifleman M1A Rifleman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,456
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Against the Geneva Conventions as cruel due to the expanding and maiming nature of the round.
__________________
The only thing that is worse than an idiot, is someone who argues with one.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-04-2011, 7:27 PM
monk's Avatar
monk monk is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 4,219
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

I think the reason is because HP's cause more damage. IIRC something to do with a humanitarian factor. Sort of give the other side a chance.
__________________


NRA Member
SAF Member


Quote:
A tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-04-2011, 7:28 PM
jbolton's Avatar
jbolton jbolton is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Tracy, CA
Posts: 1,264
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Yep. Fmj's only. I think its part of the Geneva deal. What's crazy is we can't use hollow points against enemy's of war but police departments are full stocked with hollow points.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-04-2011, 7:31 PM
NYY's Avatar
NYY NYY is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 1,756
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1A Rifleman View Post
Against the Geneva Conventions as cruel due to the expanding and maiming nature of the round.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monk View Post
I think the reason is because HP's cause more damage. IIRC something to do with a humanitarian factor. Sort of give the other side a chance.
yea.. i realize WHY its illegal.. but. seriously? to give the other side a chance?... uhm.. sorry but, what? what happened to FU** the other side and fight with everything youve got? just confused on what the h*ll is goin on. Just heard about that "law" recently.. so they are saying we can drop JDAMs to a certain square FOOT and BLOW UP a building, but HP's are UN-humain? so confused

Last edited by NYY; 10-04-2011 at 7:33 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-04-2011, 7:32 PM
Falconis Falconis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,691
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Probably threw it in when they outlawed flame throwers, mustard gas, and other chemical/biological weapons. Not that that's stopped anyone.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-04-2011, 7:33 PM
llamatrnr llamatrnr is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Diego Back Country
Posts: 4,372
iTrader: 40 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbolton View Post
Yep. Fmj's only. I think its part of the Geneva deal. What's crazy is we can't use hollow points against enemy's of war but police departments are full stocked with hollow points.
...as are Calgunners
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-04-2011, 7:33 PM
Scratch705's Avatar
Scratch705 Scratch705 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 8,266
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Default

also i would rather injure an enemy combatant. cause then it takes more men out of battle to care for that 1.

plus, don't most soldiers wear some form of ballistic protection? so hollowpoints would do diddly squat if they got any kevlar or ballistic plates. or if they just hide behind a plywood board or concrete block.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by leelaw View Post
Because -ohmigosh- they can add their opinions, too?
Proof we can all comment on whatever we want no matter the topic at hand!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-04-2011, 7:34 PM
M1A Rifleman's Avatar
M1A Rifleman M1A Rifleman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,456
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Google the subject. What I recall is the purpose was not really to kill the enemy soldier, just get them out of commission. Even better was if two other enemy soldiers were caught up helping one that was wounded, which caused 3 to be out of the fight. Wounding the enemy is more costly to the other side than a kill.
__________________
The only thing that is worse than an idiot, is someone who argues with one.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-04-2011, 7:39 PM
Josh3239's Avatar
Josh3239 Josh3239 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Ventura County
Posts: 8,813
iTrader: 53 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1A Rifleman View Post
Against the Geneva Conventions as cruel due to the expanding and maiming nature of the round.
Geneva Conventions are largely about treatment of prisoners. The Hague Conventions describes the use of bullet that expand or flatten upon impact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconis View Post
Probably threw it in when they outlawed flame throwers, mustard gas, and other chemical/biological weapons. Not that that's stopped anyone.
Are you sure Flamethrowers are banned from war?
__________________
Proud NRA Life Member As Of 2016


"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened." Norman Thomas, American socialist
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-04-2011, 7:44 PM
jpballa's Avatar
jpballa jpballa is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: E. SD Co.
Posts: 77
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

That's what happens when the U.N. And the world community make laws and rules makes no sense and only helps the bad guys.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-04-2011, 7:46 PM
rero360 rero360 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Pasadena
Posts: 3,733
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Yes, hollow points are banned by the Hague Convention, however OTM (open tip match) rounds are not

77gr. and 175gr. SMKs, in their respective calibers, do wonders
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-04-2011, 7:48 PM
stormvet's Avatar
stormvet stormvet is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,199
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

So we can save some money to buy more cluster bombs and besides do you really need hollow points with your .50 cal.
__________________
S.F. Giants 2010-12-14 World Series Champions!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-04-2011, 7:52 PM
NYY's Avatar
NYY NYY is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 1,756
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch705 View Post
also i would rather injure an enemy combatant. cause then it takes more men out of battle to care for that 1.

plus, don't most soldiers wear some form of ballistic protection? so hollowpoints would do diddly squat if they got any kevlar or ballistic plates. or if they just hide behind a plywood board or concrete block.
ok so i can agree with that, about it not going through walls/wood and such. but also, "most soldiers", like the enemy we are currently fighting.. dont really have armor on them.. anyways. yes i agree with wounding an enemy and having his men help him.. then again, the enemy we are fighting, dont really fight like we do? so i dont see a haji risking his life to go save another haji..

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1A Rifleman View Post
Google the subject. What I recall is the purpose was not really to kill the enemy soldier, just get them out of commission. Even better was if two other enemy soldiers were caught up helping one that was wounded, which caused 3 to be out of the fight. Wounding the enemy is more costly to the other side than a kill.
okay yeah i can agree with that. but that being the ONLY reason to keep HPs out of war? eh... but i do honestly understand your meaning.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-04-2011, 7:55 PM
NYY's Avatar
NYY NYY is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 1,756
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stormvet View Post
So we can save some money to buy more cluster bombs and besides do you really need hollow points with your .50 cal.
i envy your reasoning. BUT, who says that if HPs were legal, that they are the only types of bullets you can use? mix it up a bit for different uses. i dont know. just thinkin about it all
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-04-2011, 7:57 PM
Manolito's Avatar
Manolito Manolito is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Milford California Pop. 72
Posts: 2,327
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

When expanding bullets were outlawed things were different. Ballistics have evolved and one of the reasons the .223 was embraced was its ability to destroy tissue. If any of you have seen what a single 50 cal round can do to a human trust me you don't need it to expand.
Todays rounds are far more deadly than hollow points. http://gizmodo.com/5055602/first-loo...-army-gun-ever.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news..._ammo_021510w/ the Corps is just now being allowed to use these rounds and there are a lot of others being used by other US forces. I wish they would publish the photos of new rounds vs old rounds it is hard to believe how far ballistics has come.
Bill
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-04-2011, 7:58 PM
fiddletown's Avatar
fiddletown fiddletown is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 3,612
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

In any case, it's been this way for more than 100 years. The Hague Convention (there were two) goes back to (1) 1899; and (2) 1907. So this is old news and pretty well settled. Maybe some nation will want to revisit the question' but unless one does, it's not going to change.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-04-2011, 8:25 PM
Colt-45's Avatar
Colt-45 Colt-45 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,950
iTrader: 131 / 100%
Default

Why no hollow points in war? BS.

I've heard of guys pitching in and buying a box of hollow points for their side arms while in Afghanistan. Probably officers.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-04-2011, 8:33 PM
LDSGJimbo LDSGJimbo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 101
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

If we were to go to war with a civilized nation, say Canada, it's nice to think that both sides will play by the same rules so that the combat isn't quite so bad with mustard gas and all.

The problem is that we rarely go to war with anyone that will play by the rules.

Sent from my motorola with tapatalk.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-04-2011, 8:38 PM
Josh3239's Avatar
Josh3239 Josh3239 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Ventura County
Posts: 8,813
iTrader: 53 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt-45 View Post
I've heard of guys pitching in and buying a box of hollow points for their side arms while in Afghanistan. Probably officers.
Those guys could get in some serious s**t for that if considering they are not only breaking international law but they are using ammo not cleared by the US military. Its the same reason the military is so serious about making simple changes to issued rifles, Hague also deals with using personally owned weapons.
__________________
Proud NRA Life Member As Of 2016


"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened." Norman Thomas, American socialist
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-04-2011, 8:47 PM
RobGR's Avatar
RobGR RobGR is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2,910
iTrader: 37 / 100%
Default

Just finished E.B Sledge's With The Old Breed and he often talked about how the Japanese snipers intentionally tried to wound a GI as opposed to killing him to draw out additional guys, stretcher bearers or Medics, all fair game for the Japanese. However, the Japanese are by no means the only military force to use such a tactic. If a guy was dead, they would make no attempt to retrieve him under fire, however, the marines would do everything they could, risking their lives at all costs to get a wounded GI out of harms way. He has some incredible stories in that book, it's truly staggering the conditions and carnage they were able to survive.

It is the absurdity of war though, one method of killing is more "humane" than another.

The Hague Conventions and the use of the dumdums/hollow points by the British (who protested the ban) during the Boer War make for an interesting read.
__________________

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks & corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

KrisAnne Hall on Oregon

"I am sullied - no more" Col. Ted Westhusing
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-04-2011, 9:09 PM
BrokerB's Avatar
BrokerB BrokerB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Folsom , outside the walls
Posts: 2,259
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

i didnt think dumdums were HP..but just all lead- no jackets
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-04-2011, 9:17 PM
Maddog5150's Avatar
Maddog5150 Maddog5150 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 10,534
iTrader: 48 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1A Rifleman View Post
Against the Geneva Conventions as cruel due to the expanding and maiming nature of the round.
WRONG

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbolton View Post
Yep. Fmj's only. I think its part of the Geneva deal. What's crazy is we can't use hollow points against enemy's of war but police departments are full stocked with hollow points.
WRONG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh3239 View Post
Geneva Conventions are largely about treatment of prisoners. The Hague Conventions describes the use of bullet that expand or flatten upon impact.



Are you sure Flamethrowers are banned from war?

CORRECT!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rero360 View Post
Yes, hollow points are banned by the Hague Convention, however OTM (open tip match) rounds are not

77gr. and 175gr. SMKs, in their respective calibers, do wonders
CORRECT!!

I have no idea why so many people keep quoting the geneva convention, it bugs me for some odd reason. Mostly because I've been forced to attend briefings on hague.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-04-2011, 9:31 PM
crackerman's Avatar
crackerman crackerman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Granite State
Posts: 2,431
iTrader: 26 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddog5150 View Post

I have no idea why so many people keep quoting the geneva convention, it bugs me for some odd reason. Mostly because I've been forced to attend briefings on hague.
Because most people who have never gone to boot have never heard of the Hauge convention, I only learned about it at 21 in Leonard Wood. Geneva convention is sorta common knowledge, hell I have a Geneva classification in my wallet right now. So pretty common.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-04-2011, 9:37 PM
NYY's Avatar
NYY NYY is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 1,756
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobGR View Post
Just finished E.B Sledge's With The Old Breed and he often talked about how the Japanese snipers intentionally tried to wound a GI as opposed to killing him to draw out additional guys, stretcher bearers or Medics, all fair game for the Japanese. However, the Japanese are by no means the only military force to use such a tactic. If a guy was dead, they would make no attempt to retrieve him under fire, however, the marines would do everything they could, risking their lives at all costs to get a wounded GI out of harms way. He has some incredible stories in that book, it's truly staggering the conditions and carnage they were able to survive.

It is the absurdity of war though, one method of killing is more "humane" than another.

The Hague Conventions and the use of the dumdums/hollow points by the British (who protested the ban) during the Boer War make for an interesting read.
yea thats very interesting. Ive also read about japanese (and im sure other armies) taking out medics, that they can depict from the others. smart tactics.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-04-2011, 9:42 PM
RobGR's Avatar
RobGR RobGR is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2,910
iTrader: 37 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokerB View Post
i didnt think dumdums were HP..but just all lead- no jackets
Dumdums are all lead with a nickel case except for the exposed tip. The Hague banned the dumdums along with the HP b/c both were considered expanding bullets that cause devastating wounds. Winston Churchill was an ardent proponent of both bullets.
__________________

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks & corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

KrisAnne Hall on Oregon

"I am sullied - no more" Col. Ted Westhusing
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-04-2011, 9:58 PM
RobGR's Avatar
RobGR RobGR is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2,910
iTrader: 37 / 100%
Default

Too funny, had to google dumdums to verify they were nickel cased, second guessing myself, and now I'm stuck reading about the history of the British military and the development of dumdum. It's a little more interesting than the politics of the Boer War. Well, both are interesting actually, just a lot of literature.
__________________

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks & corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

KrisAnne Hall on Oregon

"I am sullied - no more" Col. Ted Westhusing
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-04-2011, 10:15 PM
bassbones bassbones is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 641
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1A Rifleman View Post
Google the subject. What I recall is the purpose was not really to kill the enemy soldier, just get them out of commission. Even better was if two other enemy soldiers were caught up helping one that was wounded, which caused 3 to be out of the fight. Wounding the enemy is more costly to the other side than a kill.
bINGO. .. That's what my grandfather told me WWII and father told me Vietnam and that's what the Army told me Grenada ...
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 10-05-2011, 2:54 AM
CaliforniaLiberal's Avatar
CaliforniaLiberal CaliforniaLiberal is offline
#1 Bull Goose Loony
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 4,313
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conventions_(1899)

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp
Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body; July 29, 1899

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

I suspect that this was written by those who had little personal experience of war and firearms and battlefield wounds. Perhaps like Anti-Gun folks today who sit at home and imagine the horrors of "Assault Clips" and want to outlaw them. They believed they were helping to protect the world from the horrors of war. Might be interesting to walk them through WWII like "Christmas Carol" ghosts of War - Past, Present and Future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Christmas_Carol

I'm not sure that bullets that expand or flatten are more than a little worse than Full Metal Jacket bullets but I'm sure they seemed that way to those nice people with white gloves who went to The Hague.
__________________
A Better Way to Search CalGuns - https://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=0...78:pzxbzjzh1zk
CalGuns Foundation FAQ - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ
Main Page CalGuns Wiki - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Main_Page
CA Legislature Bill Search - http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...chClient.xhtml
C D Michel, lots of reporting on current CA Legislation - http://www.calgunlaws.com
Second Amendment Foundation - http://www.saf.org
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10-05-2011, 6:27 AM
cdtx2001's Avatar
cdtx2001 cdtx2001 is offline
Rebel Scum
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Over Here
Posts: 6,071
iTrader: 68 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1A Rifleman View Post
Google the subject. What I recall is the purpose was not really to kill the enemy soldier, just get them out of commission. Even better was if two other enemy soldiers were caught up helping one that was wounded, which caused 3 to be out of the fight. Wounding the enemy is more costly to the other side than a kill.
^^^This. Of course that is is one side follows the "rules of war" and if something is actually declared a war. Terrorists don't follow rules.

On a side note, I once had my firearm and ammo inspected/searched by a less than friendly police officer at a range. And yes, I was protesting the search. The officer found HP ammo and was threatening to arrest me for it. He said "these are against the Geneva Convention and are illegal to use". My response was "Well it's a good thing I'm not at war with anyone and therefore don't have to worry about war crimes charges". It went back and forth several times, he has em in his service weapon, but he's a cop, that doesn't make him special, blah blah blah. I asked for and got a sergeant to show up. After explaining that I, as well as everyone else at the range, didn't appreciate being searched and threatened with arrest and the sarge listened to everything we had to say. Eventually the original officer got a good arse chewing in front of all of us and told never to be seen here again unless there was an actual crime happening.
__________________
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side kid" -Han Solo

"A dull knife is as useless as the man who would dare carry it"
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 10-05-2011, 7:05 AM
Bikertrash's Avatar
Bikertrash Bikertrash is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: socal
Posts: 1,019
iTrader: 114 / 100%
Default

President Jimmy Carter banned flamethrowers for use in battle.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-05-2011, 7:20 AM
Army's Avatar
Army Army is offline
Veteran Member
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Trailer Trash For Life!
Posts: 3,881
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Geez. We kill, period.

Combat does not give you the luxury of deciding who gets wounded, and who gets a 1000lb JDAM up their arse.

The military did not spend millions of dollars and years of research on a devastatingly effective killing bullet, just to have has try to wound the enemy. We kill because wounded Soldiers can still shoot back and throw grenades. A few months at Basic Training or Boot Camp is NOT spent learning how to be nice to the bad guy, nor how to trick him. Soldiers learn to kill and break things.

Also: You must actually hit the target with a .50 cal. The bullet passing close by does NOT do any damage to tissue or lung capacity nor will it blind you. It will make a nasty ringing in the ears from the sonic crack, but that's all.

I have no idea how these silly rumors still live on, when on their surface they are stupid at best, and defy logic at worst.
__________________
"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself...A murderer is less to fear. The traitor is the plague."......Cicero
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-05-2011, 8:32 AM
Delta-9 Delta-9 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SoCal
Posts: 52
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

If soldiers are to wound the enemy, give them .22 to play with
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-05-2011, 8:41 AM
monk's Avatar
monk monk is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 4,219
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Personally, I think it's become more about less mess no? Using FMJ is gives a cleaner thru and thru, meaning less "mess" to deal with. I mean, you guys who are in war, with all the crap you see, you really wanna see heads blown up because of HPs?

Or is there no difference given the rounds currently used?
__________________


NRA Member
SAF Member


Quote:
A tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-05-2011, 8:48 AM
Iskra's Avatar
Iskra Iskra is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 515
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Watch http://www.theboxotruth.com/ and you'll see that any clothing as heavy as denim can fill up the hollow point and turn it into a slower-moving version of hardball.

On the 2-way range, I'd prefer NOT to be shooting HPs.
__________________
I don't shoot because I like guns, I shoot because I hate paper.

There's a mistaken impression that conservatives don't like the environment. We do, we love the environment. We just call it the outdoors and we go there to kill stuff.
-PJ O'Rourke
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 10-05-2011, 8:52 AM
m03's Avatar
m03 m03 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,915
iTrader: 65 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta-9 View Post
If soldiers are to wound the enemy, give them .22 to play with
We already did.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-05-2011, 9:13 AM
Josh3239's Avatar
Josh3239 Josh3239 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Ventura County
Posts: 8,813
iTrader: 53 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iskra View Post
Watch http://www.theboxotruth.com/ and you'll see that any clothing as heavy as denim can fill up the hollow point and turn it into a slower-moving version of hardball.

On the 2-way range, I'd prefer NOT to be shooting HPs.
In self defense scenarios hollow points have proven to be extremely effective.

Are hollow points full proof that they will always expand properly? No of course not. But millions of dollars of research isn't being poured into hollow points because they are unreliable bullets that will just anger your attacker. Bullet designs are getting better and better quickly and the "issue" of improperly expanded hollow points is going away. That is another reason why I like the Hornady Critical Defense, the polymer insert is supposed to make expansion reliable and keep foreign matter from entering the hollow point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Army View Post
Geez. We kill, period.

Combat does not give you the luxury of deciding who gets wounded, and who gets a 1000lb JDAM up their arse.

The military did not spend millions of dollars and years of research on a devastatingly effective killing bullet, just to have has try to wound the enemy. We kill because wounded Soldiers can still shoot back and throw grenades. A few months at Basic Training or Boot Camp is NOT spent learning how to be nice to the bad guy, nor how to trick him. Soldiers learn to kill and break things.

I have no idea how these silly rumors still live on, when on their surface they are stupid at best, and defy logic at worst.
Ya, it is a bit funny how some people think in war you can just patiently choose a part of the body to damage without killing them and then expect to win a war based on WIAs instead of KIAs. The military is and always has trained to kill. That is there point and that is how one wins wars.
__________________
Proud NRA Life Member As Of 2016


"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened." Norman Thomas, American socialist
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 10-05-2011, 9:43 AM
emptybottle151's Avatar
emptybottle151 emptybottle151 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Diego South Bay Area
Posts: 1,439
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

That's funny, I was issued 120 rnds of hollow points in afgahn 08.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 10-05-2011, 10:09 AM
Iskra's Avatar
Iskra Iskra is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 515
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh3239 View Post
In self defense scenarios hollow points have proven to be extremely effective.

Are hollow points full proof that they will always expand properly? No of course not. But millions of dollars of research isn't being poured into hollow points because they are unreliable bullets that will just anger your attacker. Bullet designs are getting better and better quickly and the "issue" of improperly expanded hollow points is going away. That is another reason why I like the Hornady Critical Defense, the polymer insert is supposed to make expansion reliable and keep foreign matter from entering the hollow point.
Agreed - "In self defense scenarios"

Shooting a guy in a t-shirt from 10 yards with a 9mm pistol is not the same as shooting a guy wearing a heavy coat (at least) from 50 yards+ with a rifle.
__________________
I don't shoot because I like guns, I shoot because I hate paper.

There's a mistaken impression that conservatives don't like the environment. We do, we love the environment. We just call it the outdoors and we go there to kill stuff.
-PJ O'Rourke
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 10-05-2011, 10:53 AM
bubbapug1's Avatar
bubbapug1 bubbapug1 is offline
Dazed & Confused
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: South South OC
Posts: 6,284
iTrader: 253 / 100%
Default

They are only illegal for combatants who have signed the hague convention rules and protocals.

Last edited by bubbapug1; 10-05-2011 at 4:34 PM.. Reason: took out political BS - no need for it
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 9:23 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.