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  #1  
Old 09-13-2011, 4:02 PM
magnum8898 magnum8898 is offline
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Default SHTF Rifle Ruger Gunsite or M1A

I know this has probably been explored in great detail. Been eyeballing the Ruger Gunsite bolt action rifle. Besides price what is its advantage over a M1A? Both shoot 308. Both are probably more accurate than I am. Both take the same magazine. I think either one would work great as a 'head for the hills' rifle. Opinion on.
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Old 09-13-2011, 5:12 PM
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One's a bolt action and one's a semi-auto. Take your pick. If you are fine with a bolt action then get the Ruger, since it's significantly cheaper. You can use your savings to stock up on ammo, or for a scope.
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Old 09-13-2011, 5:20 PM
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Both will work, but nothing replaces the M1A. Battle proven,Camp Perry proven.
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Old 09-13-2011, 5:33 PM
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Both are heavy.. ammo is heavy... weight can be a real biatch..
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  #5  
Old 09-13-2011, 5:40 PM
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I would shoot the hostage...
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  #6  
Old 09-13-2011, 6:40 PM
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The two rifles were designed for different functions. If you want a good battle rifle that can be used for hunting then the M1A is a good choice. If you want a general purpose hunting rifle that can be pressed into service for fighting then, IMO, the RGSR is a better choice. Also, if you "head for the hills", you will end up humping all that steel and the RGSR will weigh about two or more pounds less than a comparably equipped M1A. After fifty miles of walking that two pounds will make a difference.
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Old 09-13-2011, 6:57 PM
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Originally Posted by scarville View Post
After fifty miles of walking that two pounds will make a difference.
This old fart ain't walk'n no fifty miles! If I can't hunker down and hold'm off right where I am then they'll just have to kill my azz. I ain't plan'n on living forever anyway!
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Old 09-13-2011, 7:07 PM
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A bolt action will never surpass an auto loader in .308.

Ruger was about 15 years LATE with their Gunsite bolt action. Not much better than a good 700 BDL really. I don't consider either a 'battle rifle'.

A battle rifle needs to be an autoloader. Sure the M1A will do the job, but personally I prefer an HK 91 in .308. 20 round magazines and a fool proof, failure proof operating system that is proven. The HK 91 is such a machine.

So my answer is 'None of the above'.

For sure, don't waste your money on a Ruger concept bolt action. There are better alternatives.

For instance, I would rather have a 'tuned up' ruger mini 14 or mini 30 than a Ruger Scout rifle. If I want a scout type rifle I will grab my 700 BDL with all the extras. In a battle rifle you want the ability to lay-down accurate fire-power in a speedy fashion. A bolt action simply won't do that job.

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Old 09-13-2011, 7:10 PM
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Saiga .308, price and reliability of the Ruger, and an autoloader...
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  #10  
Old 09-13-2011, 8:54 PM
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How is a FAL any lighter than a M1A? I will take my socom 16. I know for a fact FAL's are not as reliable as M1A's
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  #11  
Old 09-13-2011, 10:48 PM
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The m1A is an awesome but dated rifle. Nothing wrong with it. The bolt is a bolt.
Never liked bolts much, just not much fun.

If it were me I would buy the new PWS 308 semi auto. Its getting rave reviews at the snipershide. It functions superbly and is very accurate. Its a piston too so it stays clean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O08x7fHk8xc

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubb...2633247&page=1





850yard grouping

Last edited by problemchild; 09-13-2011 at 10:54 PM..
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  #12  
Old 09-13-2011, 11:54 PM
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A buddy of mine has that Ruger Gunsite scout rifle, he is having a tough time finding just the right scope for it or rather he is torn as to what to put on it. By definition (or as the current evolution has it) a scout rifle has the scope mounted forward, just before the action, therefore you need a long eye relief scope.

Now think about this for a second: you have a .308, but need a long eye relief scope, the obvious choice would be an EOtech or Aimpoint red dot. HOWEVER, that just seems like such a waste since you have the power of a .308, wouldnt you want to shoot it to its outermost limits??? So that leaves you with a variety of long relief magnified handgun scopes, most of which are not going to do a .308 any justice (yes, I know they now make "scout" scopes, but really a rebadged pistol scope at a higher price. What a rip).

I think Jeff Cooper failed on his theory on the scout rifle, or rather, should have suggested a smaller caliber to match the type of scope & sights that he specifies. I understand his concept, but I am not sold on the insistence of having a "scout" mount. WTF is so bad about a "normal" mount on a scout rifle???
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Old 09-14-2011, 3:51 AM
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Quote:
...WTF is so bad about a "normal" mount on a scout rifle???
There is a rear "normal" scope mount. Take closer look, or read the manual.

Last edited by socal44; 09-14-2011 at 4:09 AM..
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  #14  
Old 09-14-2011, 7:21 AM
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you know for a fact a FAL is not as reliable as a m1a? did you dream this up or is it because you spent thousands on your rifle and you want it that way?

You know a FAL has served more countries/ and in war then the M1a...
ever hear of Ol' Dirty? the FAL that has shot over 10,000 rounds with no cleaning and no failures
m1a has LIMITED time in warfare to prove its "reliability"..FAL has been in battles and is PROVEN beyond a doubt compared to a m1a - both are great rifles..but there si a clear winner of BATTLE PROVEN Reliability
www.falfiles.com
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Old 09-14-2011, 8:15 AM
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Do what I end up doing when faced with this type of question. Buy both, shoot both and keep the weaker of the two as backup.
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  #16  
Old 09-14-2011, 8:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socal44 View Post
There is a rear "normal" scope mount. Take closer look, or read the manual.
Which requires a different scope base height for "normal" scopes, the rings that come with are basically for low power or "scout" scopes...

That aside, it was the entire principal of the scout mount in question, not the lack of reading ability thank you very much...
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Old 09-14-2011, 9:13 AM
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While I have owned a number of 308 autoloading and bolt action rifles thats not what i am interested on weighing in on I read a review which said that the ruger takes a special magazine and they are expensive.

from survivalblog
http://www.survivalblog.com/cgi-bin/...ogs=2&limit=20

Last edited by GunGreg2107; 09-14-2011 at 9:15 AM.. Reason: inserted link
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  #18  
Old 09-14-2011, 10:07 AM
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oops..Old Dirty has fired 15,000 + rounds now..barrel is getting suspect as a keyholded target was seen last shooting

true Battle Rifle

Typical Ruger---they should of made it accept FAL mags..cheap/reliable and plentiful
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  #19  
Old 09-14-2011, 10:47 AM
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Just can't see a bolt action being a SHTF rifle. Build an AR10 like you would any other AR, and get to know it.
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Old 09-14-2011, 11:34 AM
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this
\/





or

this
\/

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  #21  
Old 09-14-2011, 12:39 PM
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Or the best of everything - BOTH
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Old 09-14-2011, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmptySkuLL View Post
Now think about this for a second: you have a .308, but need a long eye relief scope, the obvious choice would be an EOtech or Aimpoint red dot. HOWEVER, that just seems like such a waste since you have the power of a .308, wouldnt you want to shoot it to its outermost limits???
No, because if I wanted a LR rifle I would have bought one...?

A scout rifle is a handy, general purpose longarm in a useful caliber.

-- Michael
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Old 09-14-2011, 1:39 PM
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It depends on what your plans for after SHTF. I personally will hunker down in my small community. I have several 308's, AR's, FNLAR, DSA, M1A's I won't be running trough the woods with any of them. I will be up on a hill with long range in mind. The extra rifles will be issued to neighbors that are not healed as well as they should be.
However, I will be on the hill with a heavy barrel M1A. It's the first choice.

If I were going to be mobile, a short AR .223 would be my choice.

The bolt is fine but, why? You have excellent 308 semi's out there that cost under $1000. DPMS LR308 can be bought for less than a $1000. They shoot great.
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Old 09-14-2011, 1:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmptySkuLL View Post
...

I think Jeff Cooper failed on his theory on the scout rifle, or rather, should have suggested a smaller caliber to match the type of scope & sights that he specifies. I understand his concept, but I am not sold on the insistence of having a "scout" mount. WTF is so bad about a "normal" mount on a scout rifle???
If you look at the rationale for the scout rifle concept, everything works together. The forward mounted scope is intended to let the shooter use his peripheral vision. If peripheral vision is not imporant, then why bother with a forward mounted scope? Caliber and iron sight selection have their own rationale.

If you change (i.e. make more common) or delete criteria for a scout rifle, it quickly beomes an off the shelf rifle.
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Old 09-14-2011, 2:17 PM
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THIS is MY choice:

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Old 09-14-2011, 3:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bussda View Post
If you look at the rationale for the scout rifle concept, everything works together. The forward mounted scope is intended to let the shooter use his peripheral vision. If peripheral vision is not imporant, then why bother with a forward mounted scope? Caliber and iron sight selection have their own rationale.

If you change (i.e. make more common) or delete criteria for a scout rifle, it quickly beomes an off the shelf rifle.
Well, if you really drill down to his criteria and rationale a "scout rifle" would technically be better served as a RIFLED SHOTGUN SHOOTING SLUGS. Then a POS long eye relief scope with limited range makes sense. You can shoot all day to the outermost limits of your non-mechanically enhanced or minimally enhanced vision and be able to take down the size and weight target he specifies. AND it would be an buttload cheaper than a rifle...
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Old 09-14-2011, 4:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokerB View Post
you know for a fact a FAL is not as reliable as a m1a? did you dream this up or is it because you spent thousands on your rifle and you want it that way?

You know a FAL has served more countries/ and in war then the M1a...
ever hear of Ol' Dirty? the FAL that has shot over 10,000 rounds with no cleaning and no failures
m1a has LIMITED time in warfare to prove its "reliability"..FAL has been in battles and is PROVEN beyond a doubt compared to a m1a - both are great rifles..but there si a clear winner of BATTLE PROVEN Reliability
www.falfiles.com
I'm pretty sure M1A has a cousin called M14 that's been around the block once or twice. I'd personally take the M1A over a bolt if both were sitting by the door as I was running out. But I do wonder how many rounds you could fire through a bolt gun before something broke.
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Old 09-14-2011, 5:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokerB View Post
you know for a fact a FAL is not as reliable as a m1a? did you dream this up or is it because you spent thousands on your rifle and you want it that way?

You know a FAL has served more countries/ and in war then the M1a...
ever hear of Ol' Dirty? the FAL that has shot over 10,000 rounds with no cleaning and no failures
m1a has LIMITED time in warfare to prove its "reliability"..FAL has been in battles and is PROVEN beyond a doubt compared to a m1a - both are great rifles..but there si a clear winner of BATTLE PROVEN Reliability
www.falfiles.com


These gents say the FAL and M14 are equally reliable and long lasting in harsh conditions with minimal maintenance.
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Old 09-14-2011, 5:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmptySkuLL View Post
Well, if you really drill down to his criteria and rationale a "scout rifle" would technically be better served as a RIFLED SHOTGUN SHOOTING SLUGS.
You can make hits with that to 400+ yards?

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Old 09-14-2011, 6:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmptySkuLL View Post
Well, if you really drill down to his criteria and rationale a "scout rifle" would technically be better served as a RIFLED SHOTGUN SHOOTING SLUGS. Then a POS long eye relief scope with limited range makes sense. You can shoot all day to the outermost limits of your non-mechanically enhanced or minimally enhanced vision and be able to take down the size and weight target he specifies. AND it would be an buttload cheaper than a rifle...


With these words, I note that while you give lip service to the scout rifle concept, you do not understand it. Thank you for your time.
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Old 09-14-2011, 6:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnum8898 View Post
I know this has probably been explored in great detail. Been eyeballing the Ruger Gunsite bolt action rifle. Besides price what is its advantage over a M1A? Both shoot 308. Both are probably more accurate than I am. Both take the same magazine. I think either one would work great as a 'head for the hills' rifle. Opinion on.
They DO NOT both take the same magazine. Ruger chose the AI magazine after reliability issues with the various M14 magazines.
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Old 09-14-2011, 6:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmptySkuLL View Post
A buddy of mine has that Ruger Gunsite scout rifle, he is having a tough time finding just the right scope for it or rather he is torn as to what to put on it. By definition (or as the current evolution has it) a scout rifle has the scope mounted forward, just before the action, therefore you need a long eye relief scope.

Now think about this for a second: you have a .308, but need a long eye relief scope, the obvious choice would be an EOtech or Aimpoint red dot. HOWEVER, that just seems like such a waste since you have the power of a .308, wouldnt you want to shoot it to its outermost limits??? So that leaves you with a variety of long relief magnified handgun scopes, most of which are not going to do a .308 any justice (yes, I know they now make "scout" scopes, but really a rebadged pistol scope at a higher price. What a rip).

I think Jeff Cooper failed on his theory on the scout rifle, or rather, should have suggested a smaller caliber to match the type of scope & sights that he specifies. I understand his concept, but I am not sold on the insistence of having a "scout" mount. WTF is so bad about a "normal" mount on a scout rifle???
Ruger's scout is not Colonel Cooper's scout. That is the Steyr Scout which does allow for a "normal" scope mount. Study up on the history and concept- 300-400 meter accuracy from the factory with a scout scope on a man sized target. "The general-purpose rifle will do equally well for all but specialized hunting, as well as for fighting; thus it must be powerful enough to kill any living target of reasonable size. If you insist upon a definition of 'reasonable size,' let us introduce an arbitrary mass figure of about 1,000 lb (454 kg)."
So if you know what Cooper was trying to accomplish you would see he succeeded brilliantly.

I wish Ruger had done a better job- as it stands now it looks like they just threw extra parts together without much thought or reverence to the concept.
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Old 09-14-2011, 7:14 PM
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Anyways, it seems appropriate to mention that the current issue of "Guns" has the Ruger on the cover...



Anyone interested can read the issue for free:

http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/...GUNS/GUNS1111/

-- Michael
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Old 09-14-2011, 8:13 PM
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keep in mind guns that heave there own propritary magazine make it hard to pick up your dead enemies mag and use it after hes dead!!!
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Old 09-14-2011, 8:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chsk9 View Post
Ruger's scout is not Colonel Cooper's scout. That is the Steyr Scout which does allow for a "normal" scope mount. Study up on the history and concept- 300-400 meter accuracy from the factory with a scout scope on a man sized target. "The general-purpose rifle will do equally well for all but specialized hunting, as well as for fighting; thus it must be powerful enough to kill any living target of reasonable size. If you insist upon a definition of 'reasonable size,' let us introduce an arbitrary mass figure of about 1,000 lb (454 kg)."
So if you know what Cooper was trying to accomplish you would see he succeeded brilliantly.

I wish Ruger had done a better job- as it stands now it looks like they just threw extra parts together without much thought or reverence to the concept.
Thats what struck me as off when I first handled and shot the Ruger Scout, it seemed like a "frankengun". The Steyr is a MUCH better executed scout rifle than the Ruger. The Steyr Elite is even better albeit both are way overpriced (and yes I have shot all 3). I'll just leave it at that, lest the Ruger Scout fanboys start going off...
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Old 09-15-2011, 3:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokerB View Post
you know for a fact a FAL is not as reliable as a m1a? did you dream this up or is it because you spent thousands on your rifle and you want it that way?

You know a FAL has served more countries/ and in war then the M1a...
ever hear of Ol' Dirty? the FAL that has shot over 10,000 rounds with no cleaning and no failures
m1a has LIMITED time in warfare to prove its "reliability"..FAL has been in battles and is PROVEN beyond a doubt compared to a m1a - both are great rifles..but there si a clear winner of BATTLE PROVEN Reliability
www.falfiles.com
I think the fat boy gun show did a special on the Fal. He had two versions. One version was the special upgraded version and the other was a street gun anyone in the world could buy. The regular FAL jammed in water, jammed in mud and jammed in sand. The upgraded "special" FAL ran smooth in all 3 tests.

Here is "Fat boys" quote.......

"Make no mistake the FAL is not an AK; you cannot abuse it like an AK and expect it to work."

Last edited by problemchild; 09-15-2011 at 3:12 AM..
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