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  #121  
Old 12-31-2011, 11:42 PM
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This should be a sticky. Great story!
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  #122  
Old 01-08-2012, 5:09 PM
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This thread is exactly what collecting is all about. The thrill of the hunt, the research and most important being able to share what you got. Thanks for posting it.
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  #123  
Old 03-15-2012, 10:27 AM
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Welcome to another installment of Beetle's commentary on desriable, neat, interesting, or just downright weird guns coming up for auction at the Rock Island Auction. The April catalog was just released and in the followings posts I will point out a few of the more interesting guns up for sale.

full disclosure -- i tend not to highlight guns that *I* want to buy! Author's perogative Also I'm not really a black powder, shotgun, or revolver collector so I typically don't look at those too much.

On to the eye candy!

First up we have a very rare Colt #3 Paterson Revolver. This one was presented to an attorney in New York who did work for Colt. Apparenty Samuel Colt and one of his majority stockholders got into a spat because Colt used one of the investor's checks to pay the landlady! This attorney was hired to settle the dispute. Auction estimate is $275,000-$450,000


The finest known Colt Cavalary model Single Action Revolver. For some reason it appears this model was never fired. It is speculated that this one was ordered by the governemnt but deliverd to a state unit, where it sat in storage until sold off by the state. Authenticated by a single action expert was basically new, unifred condition. Auction estimate $125,000-$175,000


This one is super interesting. a cased model Luger Carbine presented to Hugo Borchardt. Some history here -- Hugo Borchardt is widely acknowledged to have developed the first real semi-auto pistol (a pistol that uses the gun recoil to load the next round). But his Borchardt pistol was ergonomically difficult to use, off balance, and just not pratical. I'll post a picture of a Borchardt later. Still the pistol saw small commercial success, and he licensed the design to DWM. Georg Luger was hired to initially sell the Borchardt so he got to known Borchardt well. DWM asked Borchardt to redesign the gun to make it more pratical, but he refused. Eventually Georg Luger took the toggle link design and turned it into the famous P08 Luger.

This carbine was made by the DWM factory, but by Georg Luger's own hands (known because of the GL proof mark on the gun) and presented to Hugo Borchardt -- perhaps to acknowledge the relationship between Borchardt and DWM.

Unfortunately as the P08 gained commercial success, Georg Luger and Hugo Borchardt became bitter enemies. Keep in mind Hugo Borchardt, I will be higlighting him two more times in this series of posts.

An interesting story and a historical gun. Auction estimate $90,000-$140,000


A british sniper rig L42A1. British government made from a WW2 No 4 Mk1, it was fitted with a scope and chambered for 7.62 NATO. Very few were imported into the US, the rest were destroyed by the British government.
Auction estimate $4500-$6500


... off to lunch, more goodies coming soon....

Last edited by beetle; 03-15-2012 at 7:36 PM..
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  #124  
Old 03-15-2012, 10:42 AM
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What time do you come back from lunch? So I can take mine when you get back haha

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  #125  
Old 03-15-2012, 12:29 PM
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speaking of Borchardt, here is his original design. As you can see it is quite unwieldy. This one is not quite as nice as the one up for auction last december, but still a desirable piece, considering it's history as the first semi-auto pistol. Auction estimate is $55,000-$85,000. This one is higher than most because it was owned by a historical figure, JL Childs founder of Floral Park Long Island.


Nazi belt buckle pistol. Designed by Louis Marquis while in a WWI POW camp, he received an order to make these by Heinrich Himmler for issuance to high ranking SS officers in the event of capture. Auction estimate is $15,000-$30,000.



A very rare Colt 1900 "sight safety". In the original design, the sight was manuvered outwards to block the hammer. This is a Navy contract gun. The navy found this design to be awkward, and later replaced the sight safety with normal sights. Rare to find one with the sight safety intact. Auction estimate $13,000-$19,000.


Everybody needs one of these in their living room! A huge 1911A1 training model from WW2. Auction estimate $2500-$5000.

Last edited by beetle; 03-15-2012 at 7:37 PM..
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  #126  
Old 03-15-2012, 12:33 PM
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I get a lot of PMs asking about WW2 1911s (probably from some of the pictures I post). Here is an example of a nice, honest WW2 Colt up for auction at a reasonable price. Auction estimate $1800-$2500.



Awww man! Banned in California by name. a FN FNC Rifle. Not many were imported into the US. This gun was used by Al Pacino in the movie Heat in the street shootout scene. I'd buy it just for the novelty sake if it wasn't banned in California Auction estimate is $2250-$3500.

Last edited by beetle; 03-15-2012 at 7:37 PM..
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  #127  
Old 03-15-2012, 12:43 PM
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one of the holy grails for winchester collectors is the "one of one thousand" rifles. Although the name suggests that 1000 were made, in reality far fewer were produced. They were intended to be the best of the best, the most accurate, hand picked and hand fitted rifles.

This one is one of the even more rare 1873 models, of which 55 were made. The story behind this one is quite interesting. Universal Studios made a movie called "Winchester 73", and they wanted one of the "1 of 1000" rifles to be the star. So they went on the hunt for one...



This example was owned by the man who claimed the reward from Universal, and has documented papers from Winchester authenticating the gun. Auction estimate is $120,000-$180,000.



You can buy this without any paperwork! It's an antique (not a gun). I'd like to have it as a lawn ornament, what do you think? Auction estimate is $200,000-$350,000. US Inspected Colt Gatling Gun.

Last edited by beetle; 03-15-2012 at 7:38 PM..
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  #128  
Old 03-15-2012, 12:53 PM
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This is from memory, so some of my facts might be off. In the early part of the century the US decided it needed a new side arm (after disasterous results from it's .38 revolvers in the phillipines conflicts). It invited manufacturers to participate in trials using a new .45 caliber bullet.

Those trials were held in 1907 with a variety of manufacturers present including Colt, Savage, Bergmann, Knoble, DWM (Luger) as well as a variety of revolvers from Colt, Smith and Wesson, and Webley.

The following are two actual pistols used in those trials, a Colt and a Savage. Both were chambered in the army's requested .45 caliber round.

Savage Arms 1907 Trial Pistol. Auction Estimate $25,000-$40,000


Colt 1907 Trial Pistol


After the 1907 trails, the army invited Colt, Savage, and Luger to the next round of testing. Luger felt that the cards were stacked against him and voluntarily withdrew from the process.

Colt and Savage squared off for another round of testing to which the army made several more requests (for example a thumb safety). Colt took the opportunity to redesign aspects of his gun so that it became the now familiar 1911 design. Savage mostly left their design the same.

In 1909 Colt and Savage faced off for a durability test. Colt successfully fired over 2000 rounds without stopping and the rest is history......

Last edited by beetle; 03-15-2012 at 7:38 PM..
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  #129  
Old 03-15-2012, 1:00 PM
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Very Scarce Colt Army in .38 AMU

AMU = Army Marksmanship Unit. This gun fired a special 38 AMU cartridge. Originally designed to fire a soft recoil .38 bullet, the AMU is essentially a .38 special cartridge with the rim reduced to work in a semi-auto pistol. The 38 AMU is essentially a dead cartridge with no brass to be found anywhere. Auction estimate $2250-$4250.


A Colt factory prototype Desert Camo Delta Elite. The paint job is from Colt. not too pretty in my opinion...



still going over the catalog, I'll post more if something jumps out as being weird, unusual, interesting, or desirable!

Last edited by beetle; 03-15-2012 at 7:39 PM..
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  #130  
Old 03-15-2012, 2:07 PM
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oh I almost forgot. the third and final installment of the Hugo Borchardt story for this auction.

So you saw the original design of the Borchardt semi-auto pistol. The first semi-auto pistol...

Then you saw the "gift" Luger carbine from Georg Luger to Hugo Borchardt, and how the men became bitter enemies.

The final installment comes in the form of this extremely rare Winchester revolver. In fact, the auction calls it the "rarest of all winchester firearms". The model of 1876 Centennial Revolver.

In the 1870s and 1880s, two manufacturers dominated the firearms market. Colt won a number of government contracts and became the primary revolver manufacturer. Winchester absorbed the remnants of the New Haven Arms Company (inventor of the Henry rifle) and became the de-factor rifle manufacturer.

In the 1870s it was announced that both the US and Russia were in the market for a new side arm. Even though Winchester was primarily a rifle manufacturer, they did submit a revolver for consideration.

Winchester put a lot of time and resources into developing a revolver. In fact, they hired noted gun design --- you guessed it Hugo Borchardt to assist with the design. Borchardt and S.W. Wood eventually came up with Winchester's revolver design which they called teh "Centennial model 76" (1876).

Unfortunately Winchester's design lost out to Smith and Wesson, the primary difference being that the S&W ejected spent casings all at once while the Winchester ejected spent casings one at a time. Since they never went into full production this is a very rare example.

Auction estimate is $90,000-$150,000.


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  #131  
Old 03-15-2012, 2:47 PM
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Cool stuff.....not auction related, but here is my Borchardt....my grandpa brought it back from a trip to France/Belgium 68 years ago.





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  #132  
Old 03-15-2012, 3:33 PM
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This thread is filled with insanity and I love it.
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  #133  
Old 03-15-2012, 7:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccandgc View Post
Cool stuff.....not auction related, but here is my Borchardt....my grandpa brought it back from a trip to France/Belgium 68 years ago.
You have a Borchardt? AWESOME!!!!!! Now I'm completely jealous. A Borchardt is on my list of things to get, but so far they've been priced out of my reach.

ccandgc =
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  #134  
Old 03-15-2012, 8:05 PM
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eh.....hardly
I just got lucky with this one. It spent most of the last 60 years in an outdoor garage shed, in an old tshirt in an old ammo can in Hawaii. The can sacrificed itself and the pistol is in the same condition you see here.
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  #135  
Old 04-01-2012, 2:26 PM
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my catalogs came in this week. Now the process really starts of looking through, researching, and figuring out what I'm going to bid on.



RIA catalogs are work of art. Almost good enough to be coffee table books.

This next gun is interesting and will sell for big bucks.

Rollin White was a machinst who worked for Colt in the 1800s. His job was to turn barrels on a lathe. At that time, revolvers were messy and complicated. They were loaded from the muzzle end. You would pour black powder into each cylinder, insert a bullet and swage it, and then place a percussion cap over each cylinder at the rear.

While working for Colt, White starting expermenting with rejected Colt pistols. An idea came to him that he could cut off the rear of a cylinder and product a revolver that would load a all-in-one metallic cartridge from the rear. He spent several years perfecting the design and loads.

White took the idea to Samuel Colt, who rejected it as a "novelty". A year later White was released from the company.

Rollin White patented the idea for the "bored through cylinder", which was granted US patent #12,648.

White licensed his patent to Smith and Wesson. Thanks to his "novel" invention, Smith and Wesson dominated the early revolver market. However, as the patent was set to expire White lobbied Congress to extend the patent, much like they had previously done for Colt's patents. An congressional act was introduced titled "an act of relief for Rollin White". White's assertion was that he had not be failry compensated for his invention. Smith and Wesson had paid him a total of $71,000 in royalties whereas the company itself made over $1,000,0000 in profits from his invention. The act pass congress but was vetoed by president Grant on the recommendation of his military. Basically the military wanted to convert large #s of it's revolvers to be rear loarding and did not want to have to pay royalties.

Thus White's patents expired and one year later Colt introduced a revolver with a bored through cylinder ("novelty" huh?). This model of 1871 was the precursor to the world's most famous revolver, the Colt Single Action Army.

Up for auction is the Colt model of 1871 revolver, serial #1. This first production gun was presented to Colt's Paymaster and overall finance controller Lewis Sheldon. This gun has never shown up before in collector's circles and is the first time it has been released for auction by the decendents of Lewis Sheldon. It has been authenticated by multiple experts as authentic and original.




There is no auction estimate listed for this gun. I've been following RIA for several years now and I've never seen one listed without an auction estimate. The highest I've ever seen a gun sell for is about $800K (for a .45ACP Luger used in the test trials). I wonder if this one will top that.
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  #136  
Old 04-01-2012, 3:01 PM
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Just wow...

I hope you pick up some nice things Beetle (I know you will).
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  #137  
Old 04-01-2012, 3:02 PM
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Great thread Beetle! Thank you.
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  #138  
Old 04-05-2012, 6:58 PM
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nevermind, i've done more reading to see this gun is out of price range!!

Last edited by Marty27; 04-07-2012 at 6:15 PM..
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  #139  
Old 04-18-2012, 8:29 PM
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just saw this on the guns america website. has an interesting writeup on the auction and even a little interview with the person who owns that colt #1 cartridge revolver.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/the-...of-the-decade/
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  #140  
Old 04-20-2012, 11:24 AM
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Here we go....

updates throughout the weekend.

alrighty, auction has started. Pat Hogan (CEO,founder) of RIA offered up his opening comments. Business is booming, each successive auction has brought in more dollars and more lots sold then before. I have mixed feelings about this. More and more fakes and misrepresented guns are making their way into the catalog. As usual I sent my expert in for a inspection -- I'll share some of his observations in later posts.

The pilot of the show "ready, aim, sold!" which aired on Discovery got really great numbers and will most likely be picked up.

Friday is typically the day they sell blackpowder/flintlock stuff. So I'm not following it too closely yet. One observation, miniatures are expensive! At the last auction I wanted a M1 Carbine minature, but dropped out after the bidding reached $800. Here is one that just sold, a miniature M1 thompson:



Sold $2000.
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  #141  
Old 04-20-2012, 11:24 AM
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lots of interest in the Webley revolvers -- must be because they were recently featured in Top Shot. WG Target Model



Sold $3500

Webley WG Target Military Model



Sold $4500
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  #142  
Old 04-20-2012, 11:25 AM
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strong pricing on early colt woodmans, with most selling between $1200-$2000. This one has the "elephant ear" grips that was only on the first series. The lower portion of the grip was easy to break.



Sold $2250

Even a hunk of metal by Colt is worth $$$. factory prototype



Sold $2000
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  #143  
Old 04-20-2012, 11:26 AM
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alcatraz marked winchester model 12 riot gun



Sold over estimate at $1500.

vs my WW2 Model 12 trench gun (est value approx $6000)

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  #144  
Old 04-20-2012, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
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alcatraz marked winchester model 12 riot gun



Sold over estimate at $1500.
Man, that Alcatraz 870 is sweet! and living in the BA I want it even more!

Looking forward to your continued updates Beetle!
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  #145  
Old 04-20-2012, 3:22 PM
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struck out today but that's ok, I was only mildly interested in today's lots. I bid on two items today:

1) Colt WW I Reproduction


It sold for $1400 which is ridiculously high since with the buyer premium it would at least $1540. These WWI reproductions can be found failrly regularly on gunbroker at $1200 or lower.

For the second item I thought I was going to score a deal. The auction house estimated it on the low side, a two gun set made up of a HK USP Match and a Sig P229. I figured if I could get it in the $2200 range it would be a great deal, since a USP match is already worth that by itself. From the pictures I originally thought it was a made-up (fake) USP Match. However I had my guy inspect it and it turns out the extended 6.1 inch barrel has a matching serial number to the frame. So it is indeed a real USP Match. It sold for $3200 which I guess is correct market for this set.



Anyways my main items are coming up on sat and sun so I didn't want to spend too much on these random items. Hopefully tomorrow I will have better luck!
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  #146  
Old 04-20-2012, 3:45 PM
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Thanks for the updates- keep 'em coming!

Good luck on your bidding...

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  #147  
Old 04-20-2012, 7:11 PM
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This is a terrific thread. It's my second time through and I'll probably go through it every few months. Those 1911's are sure interesting.
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  #148  
Old 04-21-2012, 8:43 AM
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That winchester "one of one thousand" gun sold for $223,500 (with buyer premium). big money for a very historic gun.

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Old 04-21-2012, 8:48 AM
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The paterson revolver presented to Colt's attorney (for settling a dispute between Colt and his investors because Colt used company funds to pay the land lady) sold for $200,000.

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Old 04-21-2012, 9:16 AM
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Seen any good Walther PPK's there? Your avatar one looks pretty sweet,,
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  #151  
Old 04-21-2012, 9:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me109g4 View Post
Seen any good Walther PPK's there? Your avatar one looks pretty sweet,,
my avatar is this:



WW2 Nazi Police PPK with original box and accessories. I bought this at a previous auction.

for this auction there are 13 PPKs up for sale, ranging from modern commercial to engraved Nazi presentation pieces. Prices range from $1K to $25K.

Here is a pre-war boxed PPK estimated to go between 2K and 3K
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  #152  
Old 04-21-2012, 10:16 AM
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interesting story on this one. the consignor worked at the ford plant. his neighbor was constantly asking him to help fix his car. he was annoyed by it, but wanted to be a good neighbor.



one day after fixing the car several times his neighbor asks him to come in and says "i know you collect guns so I'd like you to have these as a thank you".



the consignor said "i can't take these, you have some guns here that are worth $1000 alone!"



so the neighbor says "ok then give me $1000 for all of them"



amongst them was this. the finest known colt cavalry, documented by multiple experts and in "as manufactured" condition. Sold for $400K. Not bad for being a good neighbor and $1,000 huh?



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  #153  
Old 04-21-2012, 10:16 AM
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wowowowoza - can't believe i haven't read this thread before. Incredibly cool.
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  #154  
Old 04-21-2012, 10:49 AM
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got a request to maybe highlight some modern 1911s that have already sold (or coming up for sale). There will be more later, but on the first day a couple of nice 1911s changed hands.

I thought this one was a good deal. A Gold Cup (pre series 70) with box. As a bonus this was made in 1961 so it's C&R (?). Sold $1400.


Clark "Pinmaster" Custom. Sold $800. another nice pickup.


Looks like this one may have been customized (magwell, grip safety). Sold $950


More gold cups coming up later today/tomorrow
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  #155  
Old 04-21-2012, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beerman View Post
Beetle, have you been to any of little Johns auctions? I'm wondering how do they compare? Great post by the way!!!
Great, now he will outbid all of us on the OC auctions too.

Beetle, these are not the guns you are looking for. (My Jebediah mind trick)
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  #156  
Old 04-21-2012, 12:57 PM
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i know nothing about this pistol other than it's probably one of the ugliest things I have ever seen. Sold for $10,000

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Old 04-21-2012, 12:59 PM
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i think this was a good buy. 1915 Colt 1911. For the price of a decent 1911 today you can own a piece of history! Sold $1300. one of the reason why the price is low is because the sites have been messed with, but for $1300 who cares?

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Old 04-21-2012, 1:16 PM
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amazing to think they came up with this in that time frame. light is operated by your hand completing the circuit in the grip.

The luger night pistol sold for $160,000
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Old 04-21-2012, 1:30 PM
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what happens when people get caught up in the auction environment. This very nice party leader PPK was estimated to go between $14,000 and $22,500



Two bidders in the room got into a bidding war and the gun sold for $55,000! I'm sure the seller is very happy with that price.

I'm not an expert in PPKs, but I do know that there are fake "party leader" grips out there. I hope this one is authentic.
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Old 04-21-2012, 1:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beetle View Post
interesting story on this one. the consignor worked at the ford plant. his neighbor was constantly asking him to help fix his car. he was annoyed by it, but wanted to be a good neighbor.
...
Beetle,
Is this the Colt that was broadcast in the pilot of the RIA tv show?

Also, did you notice them filming future episodes? :P
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