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  #1  
Old 08-31-2011, 8:42 PM
38superdupper's Avatar
38superdupper 38superdupper is offline
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Default Store Policy???

Hey Polish Mike, I was in your shop last week and I wanted to make a clarification. I have been in your shop a few times before but last week was the first time that I purchased a firearm from your establishment. I bought a used pistol you had in the glass counter. I told your sales associate “I’ll take it” threw all the necessary personal documentation on the counter and filled out the DROS. Everything went quick and smooth. As I was getting ready to leave he handed me the receipt with my pickup date and said “ When you pick it up you will need to buy a gun lock or bring in a receipt of one.” I then said “I have a safe, I’ll fill out and sign a affidavit.” like I have done every other time I have bought a gun. He then told me “No that’s only good for long guns not hand guns.” I said “ Really, is that your store policy?” He said “ No That’s the law.” When he said that I had a deer in the headlights look on my face and look down at another individual behind the counter who looked at me nodding his head. I was running late and didn’t want argue over a $5 lock so I let it be. After hearing this I felt I needed some clarification. I have bought numerous pistols over the years, 4 alone this year and this is the first time someone has told me that that’s what the law says. This tells me one of two things. Ether I am wrong and every dealer I have bought pistols from and used to transfer have broken the law or the guy behind the counter is misinformed. Now, I did do a PPT in Contra Costa county earlier this year where the shop did have an ordinance posted on the wall that "ALL FIREARMS" sold or transferred needed to be accompanied with a lock regardless. I don’t know if that was a city or county ordinance, but the buyer did have to buy a lock. So I know there is some jurisdictions that require it. But is the City of Tracy one of them? Or did your sale person misunderstand store policy for state law? In regards to the affidavit California Penal Code section 12088.1 only states “Firearms” and does not make any specific distinction between long gun and hand gun. If you would be as kind to humor me to clearly this for me I would greatly appreciate it. You have a good shop and your sales personal are very helpful and seem to be very knowledgeable of your merchandise.

Thanks
Roy
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  #2  
Old 08-31-2011, 8:57 PM
XDshooter XDshooter is offline
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They are correct.

The "Safe Affidavit" does not work with handguns because of FEDERAL LAW.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...es.2C_and_Laws
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  #3  
Old 08-31-2011, 10:15 PM
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38superdupper 38superdupper is offline
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The "Safe Affidavit" does not work with handguns because of FEDERAL LAW.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...es.2C_and_Laws

States the following;

''In practice, that means that California and Federal law are different on what is acceptable -- and safe for dealers to accept. For long guns, California FFLs may accept the safe affidavit; for handguns, because BATFE has not yet ruled, the safe affidavit is usually NOT acceptable, and buyers may expect to purchase a gun lock with each handgun."

So this is a store policy.
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Old 08-31-2011, 10:21 PM
XDshooter XDshooter is offline
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Look at it from the FFL's side.

The BATFE is telling them that the CA Safe Affidavit does not meet the requirements of a "lock" when purchasing a handgun.

So, they can "choose" to not listen to the BATFE and get shut down, maybe charged with something, or make everyone buy a lock with a handgun, unless it comes with one.

Oh ya, it's just a store policy.
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Old 09-01-2011, 1:12 AM
02Z29ZO6 02Z29ZO6 is offline
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J&R in Livermore is the same way, bring or buy a lock for pistols. TRAP is an awesome store, had nothing but positive experience's there.
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  #6  
Old 09-01-2011, 6:01 AM
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PolishMike PolishMike is offline
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It is our store policy because it is ATF policy. I know it is not explicit in the PC's but the ATF inspectors are clear about it. The Safe Affidavit currently does NOT work for handguns. You need a lock with a receipt from the last 30 days or you need to purchase one at pick up.

We know this sucks. We do not mark our locks up.

If you want to purchase one from Walmart or Big 5 and happen to not need it after the sale is complete, feel free to return it there.


-Mike
__________________
Tracy Rifle and Pistol
7601 W 11th St
Tracy Ca 95304
209 833-9100
For sales Questions please email Sales@tracyrifleandpistol.com
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  #7  
Old 09-01-2011, 6:46 AM
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halifax halifax is offline
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This is the response I got from the BATFE when I asked:

Quote:
U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives
Washington, DC 20226
DEC 8, 2008
903010:LHB
5300

Dear Mr. xxxxxxx:

This is in response to your letter to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). In your letter, you asked if the California State Form, Affidavit Stating Ownership of an Acceptable Gun Safe or Lock Box. is an acceptable form for customers in lieu of purchasing an 800+-pound full safe.

As you may know, a major mission of ATF is enforcement of the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), its subsequent amendments, and other Federal firearms laws. A significant part of the GCA concerns the requirements pertaining to the manufacture, importation, distribution, possession, and sale of firearms.

Section 921 (a)(34)(C) of Title 18 of the United States Code (U.S.C.) defines a secure gun storage or safety device as a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm, and that designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, combination, or other similar means. 18 U.S.C. 922(z), regarding secure gun storage or safety device, states in part that it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device for that handgun at the time of the firearm sales transaction.

The form used by the State of California Department of Justice with the standards set forth by section 977.50 of the California Code of Regulations may comply with California laws but does not comply with the laws and regulations set forth by ATF. This form is not an ATF form and is not an acceptable form in lieu of presenting a secure gun storage or safety device at the time of each firearm sales transaction.

We regret that our response was not more positive. If you should have any further questions, we invite you to review our Web site at www.atf.gov. You may also contact our office at (202) 648-7090.

Sincerely yours,


Raymond G. Rowley
Chief, Firearms Programs Division
So, although the ATF recognizes that the CA Safe Affidavit is a legal document, they won't accept it because it is not one of "their" legal documents. If you don't want another lock to add to your collection just bring in your safe and you are good to go.
__________________
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  #8  
Old 09-04-2011, 3:01 AM
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Anchors Anchors is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halifax View Post
This is the response I got from the BATFE when I asked:

Quote:
U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives
Washington, DC 20226
DEC 8, 2008
903010:LHB
5300

Dear Mr. xxxxxxx:

This is in response to your letter to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). In your letter, you asked if the California State Form, Affidavit Stating Ownership of an Acceptable Gun Safe or Lock Box. is an acceptable form for customers in lieu of purchasing an 800+-pound full safe.

As you may know, a major mission of ATF is enforcement of the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), its subsequent amendments, and other Federal firearms laws. A significant part of the GCA concerns the requirements pertaining to the manufacture, importation, distribution, possession, and sale of firearms.

Section 921 (a)(34)(C) of Title 18 of the United States Code (U.S.C.) defines a secure gun storage or safety device as a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm, and that designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, combination, or other similar means. 18 U.S.C. 922(z), regarding secure gun storage or safety device, states in part that it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device for that handgun at the time of the firearm sales transaction.

The form used by the State of California Department of Justice with the standards set forth by section 977.50 of the California Code of Regulations may comply with California laws but does not comply with the laws and regulations set forth by ATF. This form is not an ATF form and is not an acceptable form in lieu of presenting a secure gun storage or safety device at the time of each firearm sales transaction.

We regret that our response was not more positive. If you should have any further questions, we invite you to review our Web site at www.atf.gov. You may also contact our office at (202) 648-7090.

Sincerely yours,


Raymond G. Rowley
Chief, Firearms Programs Division
So, although the ATF recognizes that the CA Safe Affidavit is a legal document, they won't accept it because it is not one of "their" legal documents. If you don't want another lock to add to your collection just bring in your safe and you are good to go.
I've known about the handgun lock requirement for a while. This is true of every FFL I've been to in California...but this has me thinking...(sorry, I know this is the wrong place for this).

The ATF lists gun case and lock box on there...so couldn't one present their gun case or lock box to satisfy the ATF AND fill out a safe affidavit to satisfy California (assuming you have both, which I do)?

If not, pro-tip: Sell your lock to someone else and buy it back, making a receipt for the second transaction. This is 100% legal and I do it every single time that I buy a firearm.
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