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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 08-24-2011, 11:14 AM
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Default HONOLULU POLICE CHIEF AND STATE OF HAWAII SUED FOR SECOND AMENDMENT VIOLATIONS

Link to the RECAP Docket.

8/31/2011: Motion for Preliminary injunction filed in District Court:
http://www.hawaiidefensefoundation.o...port-of-PI.pdf

8/30/2011: Refiled complaint New case # Case 1:11-cv-00528-ACK -KSC

NEWS RELEASE

Hawaii Defense Foundation
P.O. Box #1798  Aiea, Hawaii 96817
(808) 664-1827  Fax: 808-748-3376

For Immediate Release: 8/23/2011

Honolulu, HI – The Hawaii Defense Foundation’s founding director and president, Christopher Baker, has filed a lawsuit against Honolulu Chief of Police Louis Kealoha, the Honolulu Police Department, the City and County of Honolulu, the State of Hawaii, and Governor Neil Abercrombie in connection with civil rights violations of the Second and Fourteenth Amendments of the United States Constitution.

The complaint filed in the United States District Court for the District of Hawaii by attorneys Richard Holcomb, Alan Beck, and Kevin O’Grady alleges that Hawaii’s license to carry statute and various other firearm regulations are unconstitutional. State law mandates that citizens may be provided licenses to carry only in “exceptional circumstance” or “where a need or urgency has been sufficiently indicated,” all at the discretion of the county’s Chief of Police. The complaint asserts that this language violates the Second Amendment, which secures the right of all responsible, law-abiding citizens to bear arms for the purpose of self-defense. Additionally, the complaint also addresses the use of non-lethal tools for self-defense such as electric guns, which are banned in in Hawaii.

“The Second Amendment protects the right to self-defense. Everyday around the islands good people are robbed, assaulted, raped, or in the worst cases murdered. It’s simply a matter of physics, the Police can’t be everywhere to stop criminals from committing violent acts. We must be allowed to carry the tools that give us a chance to protect ourselves from harm,” says Chris Baker. “We want criminals to have to think about the consequences of attacking someone,” he continued, “but right now, nothing serves as a deterrent to them - the odds are in their favor.”
Hawaii Defense Foundation (www.TheHDF.org) is a domestic not-for-profit corporation based in Honolulu, Hawaii. The Foundation serves the community by providing various services, such as: legal defense of civil rights, educational courses on firearm safety, self-defense training, and life saving techniques – such as first aid and CPR. The Foundation has many supporters and members across the State of Hawaii.

If you would like to show your support or are looking for additional information please contact the Foundation’s Secretary, Erica Castillo, at (808) 664-1827 or info(at)hawaiidefensefoundation.org.

###

Copy of the complaint can be found:
http://ia600709.us.archive.org/0/ite....98653.1.0.pdf

Copy of the press release:
http://www.hawaiidefensefoundation.o...ss-Release.pdf
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Last edited by Funtimes; 09-16-2011 at 4:35 AM..
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:23 AM
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good
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:24 AM
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Hopefully this will get some traction. I will be looking forward to this
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:24 AM
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I was waiting for this!

Just bought my daughter a car over there for school because of what i saw in public transportation and the vagrants in waikiki.

When she moves off campus the first think i will do is gift her a handgun and have her take it back with her.
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:25 AM
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It warms my heart to read that. Best wishes to the HDF and Mr. Baker. I wish there were more plaintiffs though. I hope it all works out for the best.
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:27 AM
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Good luck with this, Funtimes. Y'all deserve a good win over there.
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:31 AM
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Default You won't ever win on the defensive

I think 40 years of appeasment proved that point.
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:36 AM
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taper, careful with getting her a gun to take with her, know the laws, might be bad for her to take a gun. they are worse than cali for their gun laws and registration stuff from what i understand of an LEO moving there.
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  #9  
Old 08-24-2011, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Tripper View Post
taper, careful with getting her a gun to take with her, know the laws, might be bad for her to take a gun. they are worse than cali for their gun laws and registration stuff from what i understand of an LEO moving there.
AFTER the win! We know the islands well.
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Old 08-24-2011, 1:37 PM
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Great, good luck guys!
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Old 08-24-2011, 1:38 PM
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Check this out. Makes you feel better about California Gun Laws. A little.


First you have to get a permit to acquire, then you have to register the gun after you get it.


Acquiring Firearms in Hawaii

http://www.honolulupd.org/info/gun134-2.htm


Here's just a portion of the process.

You will need the following documentation prior to completing the application. The application must be completed at the Firearms Section.

Valid photo identification.
Permit to acquire application.
Firearms questionnaire form.
Mental health waiver form.
Medical Waiver form.
Fingerprint card. (First time in-state purchase and $19.25 FBI fingerprinting fee.)
Background check. (Background check includes, but is not limited to, warrant checks, local and national arrest history, local and national criminal history, local and national criminal convictions, any pending cases and TRO's.)
Original Hunters Education card or an original Handgun Safety Training Course Affidavit. (Handguns only)
Proof of U.S citizenship if born outside the United States.
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Old 08-24-2011, 1:39 PM
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Default Not to nitpick, but.

I read through the brief and it reads well.

My concerns are that I didn't see comments from the following:

Heller
MacDonald
Elzell
Nordyke
Peruta
Richards.

I also didn't see a 9th amendment cause of action. Certainly not being able to protect oneself would cause someone to restrict their movements.

Of course there will be motion wars.

Since we now have a law firm that filed a lawsuit in Hawaii, perhaps we may want to create our own lawsuit regarding carry for non residents.

I realize we have Gray's lawsuit going in Denver, but a Hawaii Lawsuit would be in the 9th circuit and potentially could give us a "Split Circuit".

We already know the plays by the other side in Gray's case, so we could take those out in a Hawaii case.

Many people travel to Hawaii on vacation, not being able to protect yourself while on "Vacation" is bs. Hawaii also has many part time residents.

Hawaii is the only state in the 9th circuit with bans on any type of carry, a Federal Judge in Hawaii wouldn't have the "unloaded carry option" to weasel out of a CCW case.

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Old 08-24-2011, 1:41 PM
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These guys do have an advantage.

HI has a direct copy of the 2nd in their state constitution.

Arguing that it means something different than what the US RKBA means, and which has been incorporated, is going to be an uphill battle for the antis.
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Old 08-24-2011, 2:13 PM
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Nicki,

Reduce your tempo just touch. Unless you think we (CGF, SAF, et al) haven't a strategy or have overlooked something as glaring as interstate travel - I think our comments here and elsewhere should summarily put any fears for either to rest - we'll make the appropriate play at the appropriate time.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicki View Post
I read through the brief and it reads well.

My concerns are that I didn't see comments from the following:

Heller
MacDonald
Elzell
Nordyke
Peruta
Richards.

I also didn't see a 9th amendment cause of action. Certainly not being able to protect oneself would cause someone to restrict their movements.

Of course there will be motion wars.

Since we now have a law firm that filed a lawsuit in Hawaii, perhaps we may want to create our own lawsuit regarding carry for non residents.

I realize we have Gray's lawsuit going in Denver, but a Hawaii Lawsuit would be in the 9th circuit and potentially could give us a "Split Circuit".

We already know the plays by the other side in Gray's case, so we could take those out in a Hawaii case.

Many people travel to Hawaii on vacation, not being able to protect yourself while on "Vacation" is bs. Hawaii also has many part time residents.

Hawaii is the only state in the 9th circuit with bans on any type of carry, a Federal Judge in Hawaii wouldn't have the "unloaded carry option" to weasel out of a CCW case.

Nicki
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Old 08-24-2011, 2:23 PM
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I would love to go plinking in paradise.

Good luck with the lawsuit.

I hope that it creates a good decision that we can apply against Californian laws.

I will look to see if I can support HDF after I get done renewing my current memberships.
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  #16  
Old 08-24-2011, 2:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliforniaLiberal View Post
Acquiring Firearms in Hawaii

http://www.honolulupd.org/info/gun134-2.htm


Here's just a portion of the process.

You will need the following documentation prior to completing the application. The application must be completed at the Firearms Section.

Valid photo identification.
Permit to acquire application.
Firearms questionnaire form.
Mental health waiver form.
Medical Waiver form.
Fingerprint card. (First time in-state purchase and $19.25 FBI fingerprinting fee.)
Background check. (Background check includes, but is not limited to, warrant checks, local and national arrest history, local and national criminal history, local and national criminal convictions, any pending cases and TRO's.)
Original Hunters Education card or an original Handgun Safety Training Course Affidavit. (Handguns only)
Proof of U.S citizenship if born outside the United States.
Isn't that last one illegal?
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  #17  
Old 08-24-2011, 2:38 PM
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Do we know if these lawyers are good at this kind of stuff and/or if they are coordinating with the "right" people?
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Old 08-24-2011, 3:05 PM
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I don't know if this is good or bad. Is the NRA or SAF involved with this? Could this be a Gorski type situation? Hawaii was already harmed by a pro se case which effectively canceled their constitutional RKBA provision.
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Old 08-24-2011, 3:54 PM
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Glad to see this got off the ground funtimes. Could you post a link to donate to the HDF. As someone who was born in Hilo, I really wish you the best of luck.
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Old 08-24-2011, 4:04 PM
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From the excerpt posted by CaliforniaLiberal I'd say that Hawaii's laws are most vulnerable to a challenge of the US citizenship requirement for even purchasing a gun. That one is clearly in direct violation of Heller and McDonald.
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Old 08-24-2011, 4:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWFacts View Post
I don't know if this is good or bad. Is the NRA or SAF involved with this? Could this be a Gorski type situation? Hawaii was already harmed by a pro se case which effectively canceled their constitutional RKBA provision.
I think this is better than the Gorski-level.

I did a quick scan of the filing and it seemed pretty well written and to make some good points. Not as much fun to read as Gura and a few others but my quick scan did not show any stupidity. But IANAL and could be missing a lot - especially since it was just a scan.
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Old 08-24-2011, 4:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aklover_91 View Post
Isn't that last one illegal?
Well, how about the background check checking "arrest history".
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Old 08-24-2011, 4:50 PM
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It appears to me that Hawaii has such strict laws, challenging them won't be much of a problem. As Hawaii 2A groups get up to speed on all of this they will eventually knock down that wall brick by brick.

The people of Hawaii are of a different mindset than the rest of us from the main land. Many of the general population there really see no need for guns and embrace their history of island life. Some would have preferred to not be a part of the USA.

The Hawaii Defense foundation will, LIKE CGF, need to move in ways that are politically convincing to the population/government/courts. Along with SCOTUS rulings the org. will bring 2A rights to Hawaii. Finances will also be a hurdle for them as there just arent that many gun owners in the state. There never really has been on the island, unlike the mainland.
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Old 08-24-2011, 4:52 PM
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This is going to be interesting to see play out. How Hawaii tries to get around the state Constitution is going to be fun to watch. Heck, the whole nation has incorporation of an individual right.
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Old 08-24-2011, 4:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
I was waiting for this!

Just bought my daughter a car over there for school because of what i saw in public transportation and the vagrants in waikiki.

When she moves off campus the first think i will do is gift her a handgun and have her take it back with her and ship it to a HI ffl.
Fixed it for you.
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Old 08-24-2011, 5:03 PM
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Look, let's take this for what it is.

It's not specifically SAF or NRA "supported", but let's keep in perspective what we're dealing with here.

9th Circuit already has two carry cases up there. This case will be the "Hawaii Cleanup Case", and I believe it will likely be stayed with every other case once SCOTUS picks up a carry case.
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Old 08-24-2011, 5:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
Look, let's take this for what it is.

It's not specifically SAF or NRA "supported", but let's keep in perspective what we're dealing with here.

9th Circuit already has two carry cases up there. This case will be the "Hawaii Cleanup Case", and I believe it will likely be stayed with every other case once SCOTUS picks up a carry case.
As long as the right cases by the "right people" set the precedents, Gorski-wannabes can't harm us nearly as much....
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Old 08-24-2011, 5:29 PM
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Old 08-24-2011, 5:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
As long as the right cases by the "right people" set the precedents, Gorski-wannabes can't harm us nearly as much....
They are not Gorski-wannabe's. They seem competent....
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Old 08-24-2011, 5:39 PM
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They are not Gorski-wannabe's. They seem competent....
I was talking in general, and not even in particular in re. to HI.

Glad to hear your opinion that they're solid though.
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Old 08-24-2011, 5:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonelar View Post
Fixed it for you.
Quote:
I was waiting for this!

Just bought my daughter a car over there for school because of what i saw in public transportation and the vagrants in waikiki.

When she moves off campus the first think i will do is gift her a handgun and have her take it back with her and ship it to a HI ffl.
NO NO NO she is still a CA resident Just in school there! I gift to her here and she takes it where ever law allows her to
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Old 08-24-2011, 5:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
Look, let's take this for what it is.

It's not specifically SAF or NRA "supported", but let's keep in perspective what we're dealing with here.

9th Circuit already has two carry cases up there. This case will be the "Hawaii Cleanup Case", and I believe it will likely be stayed with every other case once SCOTUS picks up a carry case.
Indeed, Gray.

The cases that go before USSC/circuits will be the binding precedents that will guide the lower courts on follow-on cases such as this one.

While the case is not a joint venture of any sort, some of us did have an opportunity to discuss the issues with the plaintiff and review some of the work prior to its filing. I, for one, certainly appreciate that sort of trust and cooperation between synergistic interests.

Here's to the best of success on this case!

-Brandon
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Old 08-24-2011, 7:08 PM
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I'm relieved to hear that, Wildhawker and Gray. Hawaii is going to need a firm reminder that they are part of the United States.
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Old 08-24-2011, 7:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
NO NO NO she is still a CA resident Just in school there! I gift to her here and she takes it where ever law allows her to


http://www.honolulupd.org/info/gun134-3.htm

Out-of-State Registration
There is no 14-day waiting period for Out-of-State Registration. Once the firearm arrives in the state you have 3 calendar days, (72 Hours), to bring it in to the Honolulu Police Department Firearms Section.

Please have a valid photo identification and proof of citizenship, if born outside the United States, bring proof of citizenship such as an Original US Passport, Original Naturalization Certificate, Original Born Abroad Certificate, or if you are in the military your Enlisted (ERB) or Officer (ORB) Record Brief will suffice only if the document states you are a United States Citizen.
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  #35  
Old 08-24-2011, 7:34 PM
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I don't see the point for hawaii. Some of those Samoans are so big...if you were ever attacked by one, anything concealable would be moot. You'd need something in 30.06 or something that fires deershot at least.
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Old 08-24-2011, 7:38 PM
taperxz taperxz is offline
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Originally Posted by CaliforniaLiberal View Post
http://www.honolulupd.org/info/gun134-3.htm

Out-of-State Registration
There is no 14-day waiting period for Out-of-State Registration. Once the firearm arrives in the state you have 3 calendar days, (72 Hours), to bring it in to the Honolulu Police Department Firearms Section.

Please have a valid photo identification and proof of citizenship, if born outside the United States, bring proof of citizenship such as an Original US Passport, Original Naturalization Certificate, Original Born Abroad Certificate, or if you are in the military your Enlisted (ERB) or Officer (ORB) Record Brief will suffice only if the document states you are a United States Citizen.
Jeez louise!! AFTER THE SUIT BEING BROUGHT ON!!! but thank you for the intel.
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Old 08-24-2011, 7:51 PM
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Gray Peterson Gray Peterson is offline
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Originally Posted by lumwilliam View Post
I don't see the point for hawaii. Some of those Samoans are so big...if you were ever attacked by one, anything concealable would be moot. You'd need something in 30.06 or something that fires deershot at least.
Funny you should mention that. American Samoa completely bans handgun possession in home still.
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Old 08-24-2011, 7:57 PM
taperxz taperxz is offline
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Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
Funny you should mention that. American Samoa completely bans handgun possession in home still.
REALLY! It should also be noted that the biggest employer there is a popular tuna company owned by no other than Nancy Pelosis husband.
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Old 08-24-2011, 8:01 PM
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epilepticninja epilepticninja is offline
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Originally Posted by CCWFacts View Post
Hawaii is going to need a firm reminder that they are part of the United States.
I was stationed on Oahu for six years. If people don't think it is the Republic of Hawaii, they are fooling themselves. They hate the mainland and anything to do with it, including the laws. And Honolulu PD is one of the most jacked up departments I've ever seen.
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Old 08-24-2011, 8:05 PM
taperxz taperxz is offline
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Originally Posted by epilepticninja View Post
I was stationed on Oahu for six years. If people don't think it is the Republic of Hawaii, they are fooling themselves. They hate the mainland and anything to do with it, including the laws. And Honolulu PD is one of the most jacked up departments I've ever seen.
YUP! 3 days ago I heard a cop telling a guy delivering on kuhio that he could arrest him for parking in a loading zone!!
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