Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > OUTDOORS, HUNTING AND SURVIVAL > Hunting and Fishing
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Hunting and Fishing Rifle, Shotgun, Handgun, Archery, Blackpowder Saltwater and Fresh Water

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-21-2011, 10:05 PM
Hornet_RN's Avatar
Hornet_RN Hornet_RN is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Northern SF Bay Area
Posts: 588
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default how do you prove to a game warden you have non-lead bullets?

i'm planning to hunt in the condor zone in the future and i handload my own ammunition. if i run into a game warden how can i prove to them that my ammo is a non-lead hunting bullet? has anyone run into a game warden recently? just wondering, thanks.
__________________


"sir...does this mean ann margaret's not coming?"
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-21-2011, 10:34 PM
tpuig tpuig is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Mountain View
Posts: 2,134
iTrader: 26 / 100%
Default

Cut one in half and keep it with you. Make sure you know the brand and specs of the bullet.
__________________
NRA LIFE Member
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-21-2011, 11:22 PM
BC9696's Avatar
BC9696 BC9696 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South OC
Posts: 1,476
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

You don't need to prove your innocence, the Warden needs to prove your guilt. He can prove it to himself...you need only state they are nontoxic.
__________________
Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

The U.S. city with the most restrictive gun laws in the nation, Washington, D.C., has the highest murder rate at 24 per 100,000.
The state with the most unrestrictive gun regulations, Vermont, has the lowest murder rate at 0.48 per 100,000.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-22-2011, 4:16 AM
24Sailor's Avatar
24Sailor 24Sailor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mendocino Coast
Posts: 937
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Label your ammo box, including date of reload and all components. For example: 30.06, Winchester brass (twice fired), Barnes 180 grain triple shock - x (product # 30879), Winchester WLR primer, IMR 4350 powder xx.? grains, COAL 3.220" 8/22/2011. The other simpler, best thing is; JUST ASK A WARDEN if you have questions. THEY DON'T BITE MOST OF THE TIME, appreciate giving advice and will recognize you as an ethical sportsperson. If they don't have an answer they'll help you find it. I have the cell phone #'s of 2 wardens (Pat & Kathleen) that work my neck of the woods. I socialize with several retired wardens and their families. Two of which I handed a record abalone poaching bust about 15 years ago.

Last edited by 24Sailor; 08-22-2011 at 4:52 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-22-2011, 4:17 AM
edgerly779 edgerly779 is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: canoga park, ca
Posts: 6,080
iTrader: 67 / 100%
Default

I keep boxes the bullets came in and paperwork in ammo can in vehicle that has all my non toxic ammo. I carry 2-300 rounds in several calibers.The wardens have a test kit that can check if non lead. They clip a piece of bullet to check. I mark all my non lead with markers on base and on bullets so I don't mix up. I load barnes x and etips
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-22-2011, 4:21 AM
PatriotnMore's Avatar
PatriotnMore PatriotnMore is offline
Calguns Addict
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Anaheim Hills, CA
Posts: 7,077
iTrader: 25 / 100%
Default

If it's commercial, they have the list of manufacturers which make them. If it is a brand not on the list, it should say lead free somewhere on the box. Keep your box with you just to keep any stop as brief as possible.
__________________
‎"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions."
--James Madison
'Letter to Edmund Pendleton', 1792
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-22-2011, 5:29 AM
pennstater's Avatar
pennstater pennstater is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Diamond Bar,Ca.
Posts: 625
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default D-8

Roger that, I'll be in D-8 end of Sept., and will keep my Barnes box in the truck so they can check it if they like. I hope my Barnes runs into a deer while I'm up there!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-22-2011, 5:31 AM
Tripper's Avatar
Tripper Tripper is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Coast-Salinas
Posts: 6,869
iTrader: 93 / 100%
Default

If I'm not mistaken, there's an approved list
__________________
WTT/S Sig P220
WTT Glock Certificate
KZ1000 Police Motorcycle
Movado His/Her Watches
Front Sight 4-Day Handgun $99
PM about Front Sight Lifetime Memberships or Training Certificates
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-22-2011, 5:58 AM
toby toby is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Soon to be in Texas.
Posts: 10,597
iTrader: 59 / 100%
Default

If in doubt they will ask for a bullet and cut it in half to check......They did this at Tejon last time I was there......this was for guy's that did not have OEM boxes...

Last edited by toby; 08-22-2011 at 6:07 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-22-2011, 6:03 AM
Paper Boy's Avatar
Paper Boy Paper Boy is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,549
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

I peeled the sticker off the plastic box the bullets came in and taped it to the top or my box of handloads. Figured 2 minutes worth or work may save some head ache, have not had to test it yet though
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-22-2011, 1:46 PM
Full Clip's Avatar
Full Clip Full Clip is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Playa Vista, CA
Posts: 9,111
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
I mark all my non lead with markers on base and on bullets so I don't mix up. I load barnes x and etips
I just reload all my Barnes bullets in nickel-plated cases - .223, 30-06 and .303 Brit.
__________________
“Political tags — such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth — are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.” — Robert A. Heinlein

“It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds” — Samuel Adams
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-22-2011, 4:07 PM
zerohour714's Avatar
zerohour714 zerohour714 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Walnut Creek
Posts: 594
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

I am curious as to what the standard protocol is on this? If it is to cut a bullet in half thus rendering it useless, you are our a minimum of $2 per shell they cut (often times more). This would be like them putting a ban on "leaded gasoline" and then taking away a gallon of gas out of your tank to test for lead. WTF?

What is the protocol for DFG in the case of questionable ammo?
__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." ~ Edmund Burke.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-22-2011, 4:11 PM
ElvenSoul's Avatar
ElvenSoul ElvenSoul is offline
Free at Last!
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: TEXAS!
Posts: 14,720
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

I just show them the box 2yrs ago....
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-22-2011, 4:57 PM
toby toby is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Soon to be in Texas.
Posts: 10,597
iTrader: 59 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerohour714 View Post
I am curious as to what the standard protocol is on this? If it is to cut a bullet in half thus rendering it useless, you are our a minimum of $2 per shell they cut (often times more). This would be like them putting a ban on "leaded gasoline" and then taking away a gallon of gas out of your tank to test for lead. WTF?

What is the protocol for DFG in the case of questionable ammo?
This is what I experienced, they said you can afford the $2, when checked they took about 12 cartridges that morning... but if you look at a Barnes bullet ither a blue tipped one or plain, there is no mistaking them, so they just need to learn what all the non lead bullets look like or at least carry ID cards on them.... this was two years ago at Tejon, the manager said it was a first as well!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-22-2011, 6:17 PM
tpuig tpuig is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Mountain View
Posts: 2,134
iTrader: 26 / 100%
Default

Well, when I mentioned cutting a bullet in half, I was specifically referring to just the bullet, not the loaded round. Usually I buy them in boxes of 50-100 (or even 5000), and they don't cost very much individually. For example a box of 50 Barnes lead free bullets in 7mm runs about $35. Whereas the same bullet in loaded Barnes Vortex ammo costs $48 for a box of 20. Big difference... But if you reload this is easier than trying to remember the specifics.
__________________
NRA LIFE Member
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-22-2011, 6:49 PM
TKM's Avatar
TKM TKM is offline
The recruiter lied to me!
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Republicans are using guns to defend against Democrats.
Posts: 7,040
iTrader: 60 / 100%
Smile

If you have a steady hand, cross out the word Dominoes and write in Lead Magnet on a refrigerator magnet.

Instant scientific proof. Or intelligent stickiness depending on your upbringing.
__________________
NRA Patron Member CRPA/Life Member/CGF Contributor/

On the dessert tray of politics Hillary Clinton is a brand of ice cream that I wouldn't eat after a prison rape with a Presidential pardon at the bottom of the bowl.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-22-2011, 7:24 PM
Desert_Rat's Avatar
Desert_Rat Desert_Rat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Shafter,Ca
Posts: 2,310
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

When I was asked, I just told the Warden that they were the Barnes Triple Blah Blah Blah. He just said OK thank you, have a nice day and away we went.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-22-2011, 9:10 PM
bigboarstopper's Avatar
bigboarstopper bigboarstopper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: monterey
Posts: 1,640
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Besides stating to the warden that they are unleaded, you dont have to prove they are non lead. The warden has to prove they arent.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-22-2011, 9:16 PM
ar15robert ar15robert is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,437
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboarstopper View Post
Besides stating to the warden that they are unleaded, you dont have to prove they are non lead. The warden has to prove they arent.
That may be true but the warden gets paid regardless wheter he is right or wrong while we would have to pay to prove they arent lead (gas,time off work,travel,court).

I wish that LEOs would not get the overtime and have to pay the defendant if they are wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-22-2011, 10:39 PM
TrailerparkTrash's Avatar
TrailerparkTrash TrailerparkTrash is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: DPRK- Democratic People's Republic of Koreafornia
Posts: 1,690
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboarstopper View Post
Besides stating to the warden that they are unleaded, you dont have to prove they are non lead. The warden has to prove they arent.
Remember also that hunting in this state is not considered a right, but a privledge. Just like driving a car in this state. A warden can also take one of your bullets, give you a receipt and send the bullet off to their crime lab for testing. Yes, that's a big waste of money, time and resources, but it can be done. If it comes back positive for being lead, they can right up a criminal complaint report and submit it to their respective DA's office for filing.

I know, I know, sounds "cheesey", because IT IS!!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 08-22-2011, 11:07 PM
choprzrul's Avatar
choprzrul choprzrul is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Coast, CA
Posts: 5,830
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

2 things come to mind as I read through this thread:

1) The burden of proof lies with the state. You are not guilty until proven otherwise.

2) How in the devil can an agent of the state seize and destroy property without a warrant and without an associated crime? I can see seizure if they know that you are breaking the law. However, the state is seizing and destroying property for the purpose of identifying persons who might be breaking the law.

Before you answer, stop and consider if you would be ok with an agent of the state seizing your automobile and destroying it simply to check to see if you are running the required smog equipment?

.
__________________
"Send money. We have lawyers and guns." -- Gene Hoffman
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-23-2011, 2:08 AM
TrailerparkTrash's Avatar
TrailerparkTrash TrailerparkTrash is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: DPRK- Democratic People's Republic of Koreafornia
Posts: 1,690
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post
2 things come to mind as I read through this thread:

1) The burden of proof lies with the state. You are not guilty until proven otherwise.

2) How in the devil can an agent of the state seize and destroy property without a warrant and without an associated crime? I can see seizure if they know that you are breaking the law. However, the state is seizing and destroying property for the purpose of identifying persons who might be breaking the law.

Before you answer, stop and consider if you would be ok with an agent of the state seizing your automobile and destroying it simply to check to see if you are running the required smog equipment? .
No offense, but are you a lawyer? Maybe you can help us....

Read for yourself in this California state Q&A brochure published by DFG about 3 years ago and continues to be listed on the DFG website:

Q: I shoot a 338 Lapua and cannot find any listings at
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunti...ad-ammo-ca.pdf, which
means I will have to buy custom ammunition or reload them myself. How will the
warden in the field determine that my ammunition is legal?
A: A training program will be implemented to familiarize field wardens with legal projectiles.
It is possible that a warden may seize a cartridge to inspect the bullet under controlled
conditions at a later time.


Q: How will wardens check muzzle-loading rifles?
A: While hunting, any projectile in your possession may be inspected by wardens. On rare
instances, a warden may seize the weapon for removal of the projectile under controlled
conditions or fire the weapon into a medium to retrieve the projectile.


Source: http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunti...nformation.pdf

(you'll find the text I've made in red and highlighted on page 4 of that brochure).

Comparing the seizure of one's car to taking a $1.50 bullet from a hunter suspected of using illegal lead ammunition for testing later is akin to comparing apples to killer whales. So far, nobody has been successful in challenging the ability of a Warden from taking your bullet for testing if deemed necessary.

Any peace officer who suspects that a piece of evidence may be illegal, can take it as evidence and test it. It's just like if a substance resembles rock cocaine found on the floorboard of a vehicle, the cop may take that little rock to be tested by chemists at a crime lab. (He can also arrest you at that moment too!!!!!) If the "rock" in fact turns out to be cocaine, charges can be filed. If it turns out to be a pop corn kernel, well then, no charges will be filed and you'll get your car back if it was towed too. The cop has the right to take that piece of "rock cocaine" for testing if based on his/her training and experience in the field of narcotics, believes that the substance (mystery rock) only "resembles" rock cocaine and he articulates how he formed his opinion (PC) in the arrest report. The cop is not a crime lab tech and courts do not expect a cop to be able to test the substance instantly on the spot (regardless of what ones sees on TV). It's done this way across America hundreds of times per day, every single day.

The same rules apply for a warden who based on his/her training & experience in the field of hunting, ammunition and lead banned ammo, coupled with his articulated probable cause, possibly believes that the projectile in question contains lead. He may take that bullet as evidence and have it tested by an expert in a crime lab. As far as possession of a lead bullet, he will not arrest you because it's only an infraction. Instead, you'd more than likely just get a summons (cite) in the mail to appear in court for your infraction after the bullet tests positive for lead content. The rock cocaine example cited above is a felony (possibly) and that is why he can arrest you on the spot.

Remember, the mere arrest of a person, doesn't mean the person is going to be CONVICTED of that charge placed on him. That's where the court's job kicks in. Many non cops, non lawyers, non judges, convicted felons and inmates currently locked up in county jails don't understand how the American justice system works in conjuction with the 4th amendment in particular.

The examples I've cited are only a mere sliver of an explaination. Stuff like this is detailed more in law classes, police academies and Field Training Officer programs with new cops. It's far too long for me to list everything a cop should articulate in his report when it comes to actually describing the object in question (rock cocaine or lead bullet examples) or the corpus delicti of a crime and how he formed his opinion at that moment in the field to give him probable cause to make an arrest. In a nut-shell, I've laid out the basic picture on why the warden can TAKE YOUR ONE BULLET.

Next question.

Last edited by TrailerparkTrash; 08-23-2011 at 2:31 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-23-2011, 5:52 AM
choprzrul's Avatar
choprzrul choprzrul is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Coast, CA
Posts: 5,830
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

So, if that warden doesn't happen to be familiar with the Hornady GMX's that I reload with, he can seize and destroy my property just to find out? How can he articulate that he suspects a law has been broken, which provides him with the justification to do the seizure in the first place, if he is ignorant of the legality of the projectile in question? Is it a constitutionally sound principle to expect John Q public to bear the burden of the warden's ignorance?

How can you be so flippant about the value of the property seized and destroyed? It is not the value of the property, it is the glaring intrusion into our fundamental civil rights to be secure in our person and property. But, since some DFG brochure and LEO training courses (we've all read about the FUD factories) say so, you are more than comfortable with this concept?

Sorry, there is no way for me to read the 4th Amendment and then reconcile seizure and destruction of personal property by an agent of the government simply because said agent was ignorant of the facts. Destroying personal property simply for the purpose of inspecting to see if a crime has been committed is completely wrong. If the warden asked to see my ammo and observes a lead spitzer, then it would be justified. However, inspecting ammo and NOT observing anything with lead doesn't pass muster. What you are articulating is using a LACK of evidence to be used for reasonable suspicion as justification.
__________________
"Send money. We have lawyers and guns." -- Gene Hoffman

Last edited by choprzrul; 08-23-2011 at 7:14 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-23-2011, 8:49 AM
Which Way Out's Avatar
Which Way Out Which Way Out is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Central Coast
Posts: 1,333
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

2 years ago I had some 35 Remington rounds made up that are lead free.
At that time there were no lead free bullets in .35 cal. Not sure about today. Anyway the shop that made em for me used I think .357 hollow points and if i remember right 145 gr.
There is no dought that there are non lead as you can see into the hollow point. Shot one round to test and was right on target. Now I just need to find a nice piggy to test em on...
__________________
l
l___ ____
l/|. ,[__],
l---L -=OlllllllO_
()_) ()_)-~--)_)
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-23-2011, 10:41 AM
TrailerparkTrash's Avatar
TrailerparkTrash TrailerparkTrash is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: DPRK- Democratic People's Republic of Koreafornia
Posts: 1,690
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by choprzrul View Post
How can you be so flippant about the value of the property seized and destroyed?
I never stated whether or not that I agree with the way the law works or how a LEO (warden) can do what he/she does regarding the specific question the OP originally asked. As to being flilppant? I beg to differ that statement. I take the law and search & seizure very seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by choprzrul
Sorry, there is no way for me to read the 4th Amendment and then reconcile seizure and destruction of personal property by an agent of the government simply because said agent was ignorant of the facts. Destroying personal property simply for the purpose of inspecting to see if a crime has been committed is completely wrong. If the warden asked to see my ammo and observes a lead spitzer, then it would be justified.
Did you even read my earlier post in detail? I explained to you that the LEO would have to ARTICULATE the facts on how he suspected the bullet to contain lead. He would also have to articulate his training and experience and then form the opinion that what the hunter possessed was illegal. Therefore, he sezied the bullet! Perfectly legal, but it's up to a judge to decide if his articulated facts, training and experience were all enough to convince the court that what he did was legal. This by the way is not hard to do at all, buddy. You just don't get it, so you ignorantly attack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by choprzrul
However, inspecting ammo and NOT observing anything with lead doesn't pass muster.
....Again, not only does he inspect the ammo, the warden must articulate why he believes the bullet is illegal. IF he can do that, he then takes it as evidence and you still stand there in the field say, "hey, you can't do that!" He just did. When he asked you to show him your bullets and you comply, he then looks at it and his investigation begins. It can go either up or down hill from there.

If the warden decides to take the bullet because he strongly believes it is illegal, yet isn't sure (or maybe hes positive it's an illegal one), a crime lab will test it (maybe without destroying it) and issue a finding. Then it's up to a deputy DA to decide if charges should move forward based on the totality of the evidence and circumstances for court proceedings. Ultimately a court will decide if that was a legal seizure or not by the Warden. It happens EVERY SINGLE DAY, all across America.
Quote:
Originally Posted by choprzrul
What you are articulating is using a LACK of evidence to be used for reasonable suspicion as justification.
No, if it can't be articulated enough by the warden, that may POSSIBLY be a lack of evidence. You're watching too much Miami CSI or something. Remember my hypothetical example I gave you regarding finding the "rock cocaine" on the floorboard of a car? Is it cocaine, or a pop-corn kernal???? With articulable facts laid out by the LEO, that rock/pop-corn CAN BE CONFISCATED FOR TESTING. Again, you don't understand and no matter how long I or anyone else explains it to you, you maintain that I'm "flippant."
When you don't understand something, you apparently toss out insults.

I showed you in print from the state of California's DFG website what they said they can do; coupled with personal experience of what LEO can legally do regarding seizure of evidence (yes, your personal property) if they reasonably believe and CAN ARTICULATE that what they have confiscated may be used in a crime. For this thread, that would be a bullet they possibly believe to contain lead, yet you continue to tell yourself that LE can't do what I've just breifly outlined.

I don't know how to explain ignorance. That's not an insult, it's just fact. You don't believe something, therefore you are correct apparently. How can I or anyone else convince you otherwise when you don't want to hear reality? I've even given you two very "roughly" explained examples of how legally obtained evidence may be seized by LE, coupled with a link to the DFG website stating that they CAN take your bullet for testing. Mind you, that DFG handout appears to have been written for "simpletons" because it is an extremely basic advisory. However, they've been posting that info I tried to explain to you now for the last 3 years. It hasn't been removed from their public information posts yet.

I personally don't agree with some of the laws regarding what the police can and can't do, but this is how it is here. You mentioned the fact that people can't have their property taken by the police, well it's done all the time. It's called evidence. Evidene can be used to prove or DISPROVE guilt of a crime.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-23-2011, 3:53 PM
choprzrul's Avatar
choprzrul choprzrul is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Coast, CA
Posts: 5,830
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Which of these contain lead?



or



Loaded and crimped above the cannelure, how would a warden know which is legal and which is not? One is one is on CA DFG's Certified Nonlead Ammunition Information list, and one is not.

If I am in the field hunting with the perfectly legal, CA certified version; is it ok for a warden to take one of my loaded rounds and destroy it for the purpose of determining if it is legal or not? Assume that I am choosing to not make any statements without legal counsel present and the warden has no evidence other than what he can visually observe on my unfired, loaded rounds.

Is it acceptable for my property to be seized and destroyed?


I fully understand the difference between what is 'right', and what actually happens. I also understand that CGF routinely has to give constitutional attitude readjustments to make sure some agents of the government are playing by the rules.

Back to my OP in #21, I said
Quote:
I can see seizure if they know that you are breaking the law. However, the state is seizing and destroying property for the purpose of identifying persons who might be breaking the law.
I should have quantified a lack of evidence that any projectiles with a lead content in excess of 1% are being used or possessed by any person in question. My bad. Absent any evidence of any projectiles containing more than 1% lead, I will stand by my above quoted question. Just because the warden doesn't have x-ray vision so see what the content of the projectile is in its core, that doesn't give him probable cause to destroy the projectile simply to have a look-see. Likewise, if I am driving the back roads in the national forest and get stopped by a warden, said warden can't destroy my locked gun case just to see what's inside absent any probable cause to believe a firearm is inside the case. The locked gun case itself is not enough for probable cause the same as the mere presence of a projectile is not enough for probable cause. Reference the two above projectile pictures. Noting the presence of something and observing its outside, absent other evidence, is not enough to proceed with a search to determine contents.

That is the way it is supposed to work and is what I was attempting to articulate in my previous posts. I don't own any rose colored glasses, so I am fully aware that this isn't necessarily the way things work in the real world. Some of those charged with enforcing the law don't always play by the rules. I get it.

.
__________________
"Send money. We have lawyers and guns." -- Gene Hoffman

Last edited by choprzrul; 08-23-2011 at 3:57 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-23-2011, 4:29 PM
CACitUP CACitUP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 621
iTrader: 17 / 100%
Default

Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-23-2011, 4:33 PM
ar15robert ar15robert is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,437
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash View Post
No offense, but are you a lawyer? Maybe you can help us....

Read for yourself in this California state Q&A brochure published by DFG about 3 years ago and continues to be listed on the DFG website:

Q: I shoot a 338 Lapua and cannot find any listings at
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunti...ad-ammo-ca.pdf, which
means I will have to buy custom ammunition or reload them myself. How will the
warden in the field determine that my ammunition is legal?
A: A training program will be implemented to familiarize field wardens with legal projectiles.
It is possible that a warden may seize a cartridge to inspect the bullet under controlled
conditions at a later time.


Q: How will wardens check muzzle-loading rifles?
A: While hunting, any projectile in your possession may be inspected by wardens. On rare
instances, a warden may seize the weapon for removal of the projectile under controlled
conditions or fire the weapon into a medium to retrieve the projectile.


Source: http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunti...nformation.pdf

(you'll find the text I've made in red and highlighted on page 4 of that brochure).

Comparing the seizure of one's car to taking a $1.50 bullet from a hunter suspected of using illegal lead ammunition for testing later is akin to comparing apples to killer whales. So far, nobody has been successful in challenging the ability of a Warden from taking your bullet for testing if deemed necessary.

Any peace officer who suspects that a piece of evidence may be illegal, can take it as evidence and test it. It's just like if a substance resembles rock cocaine found on the floorboard of a vehicle, the cop may take that little rock to be tested by chemists at a crime lab. (He can also arrest you at that moment too!!!!!) If the "rock" in fact turns out to be cocaine, charges can be filed. If it turns out to be a pop corn kernel, well then, no charges will be filed and you'll get your car back if it was towed too. The cop has the right to take that piece of "rock cocaine" for testing if based on his/her training and experience in the field of narcotics, believes that the substance (mystery rock) only "resembles" rock cocaine and he articulates how he formed his opinion (PC) in the arrest report. The cop is not a crime lab tech and courts do not expect a cop to be able to test the substance instantly on the spot (regardless of what ones sees on TV). It's done this way across America hundreds of times per day, every single day.

The same rules apply for a warden who based on his/her training & experience in the field of hunting, ammunition and lead banned ammo, coupled with his articulated probable cause, possibly believes that the projectile in question contains lead. He may take that bullet as evidence and have it tested by an expert in a crime lab. As far as possession of a lead bullet, he will not arrest you because it's only an infraction. Instead, you'd more than likely just get a summons (cite) in the mail to appear in court for your infraction after the bullet tests positive for lead content. The rock cocaine example cited above is a felony (possibly) and that is why he can arrest you on the spot.

Remember, the mere arrest of a person, doesn't mean the person is going to be CONVICTED of that charge placed on him. That's where the court's job kicks in. Many non cops, non lawyers, non judges, convicted felons and inmates currently locked up in county jails don't understand how the American justice system works in conjuction with the 4th amendment in particular.

The examples I've cited are only a mere sliver of an explaination. Stuff like this is detailed more in law classes, police academies and Field Training Officer programs with new cops. It's far too long for me to list everything a cop should articulate in his report when it comes to actually describing the object in question (rock cocaine or lead bullet examples) or the corpus delicti of a crime and how he formed his opinion at that moment in the field to give him probable cause to make an arrest. In a nut-shell, I've laid out the basic picture on why the warden can TAKE YOUR ONE BULLET.

Next question.
What sucks for the person with say a popcorn kernal mistaken for rock coacine is he gets jailed til results are in,possibly lose his job,gets embarrased,etc,While the officer will just say he thought based on his experience he thought it was rock cocaine and probably never have any recourse.That is what is wrong with the system.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 08-23-2011, 5:23 PM
toby toby is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Soon to be in Texas.
Posts: 10,597
iTrader: 59 / 100%
Default

It's just a fricken bullet get over it, or quit hunting in condor range....simple, there are lots of rules we have to follow and most suck! but we live in AMERICA we have rights and privileges, hunting is not a right.

Last edited by toby; 08-23-2011 at 5:33 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 08-24-2011, 9:16 AM
choprzrul's Avatar
choprzrul choprzrul is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Coast, CA
Posts: 5,830
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by toby View Post
It's just a fricken bullet get over it, or quit hunting in condor range....simple, there are lots of rules we have to follow and most suck! but we live in AMERICA we have rights and privileges, hunting is not a right.
You are more than free to forfeit your civil rights if you wish. As for me, I would prefer that the government & its agents don't engage in unlawful taking of personal property from me. Feel free to hand over your ammo, but please don't chastise me for choosing to take a Constitutional course of action.

I defer to Mr. Franklin:

Quote:
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
.
__________________
"Send money. We have lawyers and guns." -- Gene Hoffman
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 08-24-2011, 1:00 PM
TrailerparkTrash's Avatar
TrailerparkTrash TrailerparkTrash is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: DPRK- Democratic People's Republic of Koreafornia
Posts: 1,690
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15robert View Post
What sucks for the person with say a popcorn kernal mistaken for rock coacine is he gets jailed til results are in,possibly lose his job,gets embarrased,etc,While the officer will just say he thought based on his experience he thought it was rock cocaine and probably never have any recourse.That is what is wrong with the system.
I agree with you 110%. I never said I was a "fan" of how the system works.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 08-24-2011, 1:01 PM
TrailerparkTrash's Avatar
TrailerparkTrash TrailerparkTrash is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: DPRK- Democratic People's Republic of Koreafornia
Posts: 1,690
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by toby View Post
It's just a fricken bullet get over it, or quit hunting in condor range....simple, there are lots of rules we have to follow and most suck! but we live in AMERICA we have rights and privileges, hunting is not a right.
Absolutely agree with this statement too.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 08-24-2011, 1:31 PM
Sub95's Avatar
Sub95 Sub95 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SB
Posts: 1,146
iTrader: 13 / 100%
Default

when the warden checked mine, he just looked at them in my mag and never took them out. other friend just handed him a few of his , he looked at them and gave them back, after that we talked with him for a few.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 08-24-2011, 2:28 PM
choprzrul's Avatar
choprzrul choprzrul is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Coast, CA
Posts: 5,830
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sub95 View Post
when the warden checked mine, he just looked at them in my mag and never took them out. other friend just handed him a few of his , he looked at them and gave them back, after that we talked with him for a few.
^^Full of Win^^

.
__________________
"Send money. We have lawyers and guns." -- Gene Hoffman
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 08-24-2011, 2:59 PM
AEC1's Avatar
AEC1 AEC1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Millington TN. FREEDOM!
Posts: 1,659
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Discharge the weapon while aimed at his vital area. He can recover the bullet and analyze it all he wants...


Not really, but This is something that is not a big enough deal for most attorneys to take on the case. It should be, but even if it was 10 bucks a round no one would fight it....
__________________
Land of the Free BECAUSE of the brave.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaMasterTech View Post
So far, I've had six beers, four redbulls, eight twinkies and I'm REALLY afraid to fart!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 7:39 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.