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  #1  
Old 08-13-2011, 1:57 PM
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Default Capacity vs. stopping power.

in Your opinion, in what type of situations, ULTRA high capacity can be handy and a life saver?

when would a 9mm pistol that is easy to hit with and can fire 20-30 plus rounds w/o a need to reload be a weapon of choice?

When would a 9mm Glock with several 33 rd sticks bring more comfort than a SIG P220 with a couple of mags.



I would like to hear some opinions. ( REALISTIC SITUATIONS ONLY)

Last edited by ap3572001; 08-13-2011 at 2:02 PM..
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Old 08-13-2011, 1:59 PM
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When you're severely outnumbered.
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Old 08-13-2011, 2:36 PM
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This is a caliber war question packaged differently. When it comes to modern ammo, the differences in handgun caliber performance is minimal. Do a search on the forum. Coupled with the dismal track record of handguns vs rifle performance its easy to see why pistols are NOT considered primary weapon systems.

With the greater possibility of multiple threats, capacity trumps 'stopping power', I term I wouldn't use when discussing handguns.

Glock 19 with legal pr-ban magazine 15 + G17 reload 16 (loaded one down). And you have 31. How many magazines would you need with the P220?

.....pause for caliber war to start by non-SMEs.
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Old 08-13-2011, 2:51 PM
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[QUOTE=l8apex;6956777]This is a caliber war question packaged differently. When it comes to modern ammo, the differences in handgun caliber performance is minimal. Do a search on the forum. Coupled with the dismal track record of handguns vs rifle performance its easy to see why pistols are NOT considered primary weapon systems.

With the greater possibility of multiple threats, capacity trumps 'stopping power', I term I wouldn't use when discussing handguns.

Glock 19 with legal pr-ban magazine 15 + G17 reload 16 (loaded one down). And you have 31. How many magazines would you need with the P220?

.....pause for caliber war to start by non-SMEs.[/QU
NOT A CALIBER WAR. To make things simple, when does an ability to fire many rounds w/o a need to reaload becomes a BIG PLUS? I had this conversation at work yesterday with other range officers (LE) and would like to hear what people have to say on this subject.
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Old 08-13-2011, 2:54 PM
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If I was in the business of LE or the military, then I'd be favorable to capacity - but I'm not.

As a civilian, and beyond that, as a big bore revolver guy, I choose caliber.

I've never felt undergunned with a 6 shooter and I don't feel bad with a single stack 1911 loaded with 9 rounds of large cast bullets at 850fps.

I guess I'm one of those knuckle dragging throwbacks that like handgun calibers to start with a 4.
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Old 08-13-2011, 3:00 PM
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Old 08-13-2011, 3:01 PM
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Several wise men who've either been in shootouts, or have studied the art of gunfighting their whole life have stated multiple times that a pistol should be used to fight your way to a long gun of some kind.

That said - a 9mm will kill you dead just as easy as a rock or a bomb. If that's what you shoot well then shoot it. High capacity should be a moot point for the normal person. If several people want you dead you are going to die and the size of your magazine will have little to do with anything.
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Old 08-13-2011, 3:02 PM
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For a Home invasion when i'm not sure how many bad guys there are i'd take my G19 with a g18 33 rounder and 2 of my pre ban 16 rounders. but to tell the truth if it was a home invasion i'd grab my AR and my pre bans and go to work with that over my pistol.
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Old 08-13-2011, 3:04 PM
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Personal preference, I could care less if I had six rounds of .45 vs. six rounds of 9mm. In comparison of having 33rnds of 9mm, and 33 rnds of .45.
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Old 08-13-2011, 3:10 PM
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Both but CA infringes on our rights to this choice. If we had this choice, we would never have this question. I would take both. 10 rounds of 45 or 30 rounds of 7.62x39.
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Old 08-13-2011, 3:10 PM
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More rounds is more. Period.

I'd rather have some left than run short...
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Old 08-13-2011, 3:27 PM
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How many adversaries do you expect to face and survive if their skill level is equal or close to your own without taking cover and being able to reload? I know of two Medal of Honor recipients who killed 6 and 5 enemy soldiers respectively with their 1911's apparently with a single magazine and lived to tell the tale. I can only infer they had "signifcant military experience".

Also ponder that in a military situation you're limited to FMJ and the calibres are NOT equal in that situation. While both 9mm and 45 acp are lethal (as is the 22lr and 25acp) theres a reason the .45acp was long considerred the king of stopping power in manageable semi-auto handgun.

In the end its a decision each person needs to make for themselves. Go with what you believe in.
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Old 08-13-2011, 3:58 PM
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Originally Posted by sequoia_nomad View Post
When you're severely outnumbered.
Agreed.
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Old 08-13-2011, 4:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
in Your opinion, in what type of situations, ULTRA high capacity can be handy and a life saver?

when would a 9mm pistol that is easy to hit with and can fire 20-30 plus rounds w/o a need to reload be a weapon of choice?

When would a 9mm Glock with several 33 rd sticks bring more comfort than a SIG P220 with a couple of mags.



I would like to hear some opinions. ( REALISTIC SITUATIONS ONLY)
Or you can have the best of both worlds if you own a 45acp Glock 21 or Glock 30. Just get a KRISS Super V MagEx extension for your already legally owned hi-cap 13rd mag and make it a 30rd stick.

http://www.kriss-tdi.com/kriss-store...category_id=12
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Old 08-13-2011, 4:16 PM
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More rounds the better, if I have to provide cover fire to give my family to escape, or if I an wounded, changing mags may be difficult. I never want to run out of ammo.
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Old 08-13-2011, 4:29 PM
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Practicality aside (a gigantic mag getting in the way) it's better to have it and not need it. Who says there's just one bad guy and it only takes you a shot or two to stop them?
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Old 08-13-2011, 4:37 PM
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Isn't it a moot point anyways in California? Your never going to get more then 10 unless your LE and I don't mean to highjack the thread but wouldn't a better question be which is better 10 rounds of 9mm or 10 rounds of .45?
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Old 08-13-2011, 4:40 PM
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Shot placement is everything.

A poorly placed S&W500 will not stop the threat.
A well placed .22lr will stop the threat.

The "best" caliber and firearm is the one that you are most comfortable and most accurate with.
Given that for the most part California limits us to 10 rounds, there's not a huge difference in capacity... but in a free state, or pre-ban magazines, I'd take 9mm over my 1911
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Old 08-13-2011, 4:42 PM
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Isn't it a moot point anyways in California? Your never going to get more then 10 unless your LE and I don't mean to highjack the thread but wouldn't a better question be which is better 10 rounds of 9mm or 10 rounds of .45?
Not moot at all.

It certainly is an issue for someone currently researching a gun purchase, but my wife has 100% legal 15rd magazines for her 92FS.
A lot of people have 100% legal magazines that hold more than 10 rounds.


BTW: She just got the gun earlier this year... we've had the magazines since the mid 90s.
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 08-13-2011, 4:46 PM
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I apologize I was thinking like a new gun owner. I was told even if I were to buy from a private party I would still be unable to get a high cap mag. From my understanding only way I can do it is to enter LE which is a goal but isn't the reason why it's my goal. again sorry
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Old 08-13-2011, 5:03 PM
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Quote:
NOT A CALIBER WAR. To make things simple, when does an ability to fire many rounds w/o a need to reaload becomes a BIG PLUS? I had this conversation at work yesterday with other range officers (LE) and would like to hear what people have to say on this subject.
Let me reverse the question, when would having less and reloading more often under stress be an advantage?
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Old 08-13-2011, 5:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sequoia_nomad View Post
When you're severely outnumbered.
I was going to say depends. If you have several attackers... Id take the high round count.. If your only going against one or 2.. Id want the "put down/stopping power"
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Old 08-13-2011, 5:22 PM
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I knew the CA factor will come up in this discussion .......And caliber too. Ok, let me ask a question in a different way. I what realistic situations would a 9mm full size Glock with several 33rd mags would be a real plus.
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Old 08-13-2011, 5:24 PM
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I would go with stopping power instead of capacity. I'll just carry more mags.
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Old 08-13-2011, 5:34 PM
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What effect does one of those 33 round 'stick' magazines have on gun handling? I lean toward the more rounds are better school of thought but remember trying to shoot skeet with a long barrel trap shotgun. No way could I move the longer gun fast enough to keep up with skeet targets. Would that long magazine sticking out do the same thing to a handgun?

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Old 08-13-2011, 7:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
I knew the CA factor will come up in this discussion .......And caliber too. Ok, let me ask a question in a different way. I what realistic situations would a 9mm full size Glock with several 33rd mags would be a real plus.
Not many, and none that I can think of. However that is an extreme example and shouldn't be really discussed, since it makes as much sense to do, as carrying only one round because one believes in stopping power.

The train of thought is, if the handgun caliber performance delta is not significant, that would then indicate that 'stopping power' is directly related to ones accuracy and their ability to make multiple brisk hits on the threat. No hits, bad hit percentage, multiple threats, and you will find yourself wanting for more capacity.

I submit, 'stopping power' in regards to pistols, is ones ability to make accurate brisk hits multiple times to cease the threat. No bullet, caliber, platform will do the work for you. The more of it you have the better.
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Old 08-13-2011, 7:43 PM
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20-30 rounds is "ULTRA high capacity"?


20-30 rounds may be ample enough for a shooting involving 1 target.
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Old 08-13-2011, 7:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe View Post
20-30 rounds is "ULTRA high capacity"?


20-30 rounds may be ample enough for a shooting involving 1 target.
Id hope that would be enough for 10 targets.. If you need 30 rounds unless your fighting the zombie apocalypse or a angry crowed you need to go practice.

This feels like a undercover SHTF thread hahaha
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Old 08-13-2011, 7:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redcliff View Post
How many adversaries do you expect to face and survive if their skill level is equal or close to your own without taking cover and being able to reload? I know of two Medal of Honor recipients who killed 6 and 5 enemy soldiers respectively with their 1911's apparently with a single magazine and lived to tell the tale. I can only infer they had "signifcant military experience".

Also ponder that in a military situation you're limited to FMJ and the calibres are NOT equal in that situation. While both 9mm and 45 acp are lethal (as is the 22lr and 25acp) theres a reason the .45acp was long considerred the king of stopping power in manageable semi-auto handgun.

In the end its a decision each person needs to make for themselves. Go with what you believe in.
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Old 08-13-2011, 7:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPGuy View Post
Isn't it a moot point anyways in California? Your never going to get more then 10 unless your LE and I don't mean to highjack the thread but wouldn't a better question be which is better 10 rounds of 9mm or 10 rounds of .45?
I am not in LE , I do have a number of 14 round mags for my 45 , best of both worlds. round count and stopping power
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Old 08-13-2011, 8:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNinerFan View Post
I always keep several loaded magazines in the nightstand next to the gun and a flash light. On a couple of occasions (buddy staying at my house coming in real late) I did what I always do. Grabbed the gun, the flashlight and tossed the mags in the pocket of my shorts. Mags always go in the left side pocket.

For whatever it's worth, I always use 10 round mags for home defense because the last thing I want to do is explain to a cop or God forbid a jury that I shot some intruders using hi-cap mags in my gun. This is California after all...

As for the AR, mine is locked up and I don't keep any loaded AR mags in the safe.

As for when high-caps would be useful. Definitely when facing multiple threats. Chances are your juices will be going and you won't be concentrating like you would punching steel or paper at the range. I always focus on manipulations when it comes to self defense situations. Clearing jams, reloading smoothly etc...
I own, possess and use normal magazines (now called Hi Capacity).. So I am not inclined to down-grade my firepower options.

ASP.....stands for Accuracy, Speed and Power....

Having a lot of ammo to throw at a problem is moot unless you're accurate. So to me, a weapon that you can shoot well and on target is my first priority.

Then do it fast. And have the power (foot pounds of energy and diameter) to take care of whatever beast is bothering you.

Shooting 9MM with precision will do the job. Much better than a wheel gun loaded with .44 magnum and too much recoil to stay on target. lol.

Facing multiple threats is very uncommon and really the stuff of a good action movie.

One scenario that is possible (here in La La land) would be multiple threats riding around in a single car. A several car loads of gang members are at this very minute cruising thru some areas of the Southland. This is reality.

Another reality is a 9MM isn't that effective against car doors or some windshields. Cops working Metro Division carry Glocks in .40 caliber with high performance ammo that will push thru a car door or windshield. They also carry AR Carbines and other weapons designed for fast shooting on a moving target.

For me, a GLOCK 29 in 10MM loaded with a normal 15 round magazine with an extension (20 rounds available) Double-Tap 200 grain hunting ammo and an extended barrel for a little more speed....and I'am good. (Or a Glock 20 with the same options).

Be well, Bob

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Old 08-13-2011, 8:06 PM
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Okay....
9mm with guy who is on drugs....
Good luck with that... If you able hit his nerve system or head to stop him.
or you can spray the 9mm and hit your target several times in a couple of seconds without missing a round. (you better know what is behind the target.)
Most of us will not be able to do that in real situation.
My choice will be 12ga either .45.
No matter what he is on....If you hit the bad guy with those rounds it will knock him down.

Like many people told that what if attackers are several guys....
I don't think more than 5~6 guys attack you at the same time situation will happen alot.

Well... just my thought.
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Old 08-13-2011, 8:41 PM
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G20 with preban 15 rndrs......problem solved.
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Old 08-13-2011, 9:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
I knew the CA factor will come up in this discussion .......And caliber too. Ok, let me ask a question in a different way. I what realistic situations would a 9mm full size Glock with several 33rd mags would be a real plus.
Exactly...Having been a free state with a 30 round AK magazine going as quick as I want or as slow as I want, I will take hi cap all day every day.

Shot placement is key but even i get flyers and fail to be as accurate as I want at times...Also someone brought up stress...Yeah, if you are stressed, accuracy can be a problem. Have bunch of knuckleheads making noise when you shoot purposely and it becomes a pain or try a group commenting on bad shot in an impromptu contest for groups...

Hi Cap with bigger round...As I said, the answer is both.
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Old 08-13-2011, 9:37 PM
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This almost makes me want to re-think my 12ga shotty under my bed and replace with my AR. I alway just considered if there were intruders in my house and they heard the rack of my shotgun that they would second think being there before I come out blasting my strobe light I don't know, I always considered my shotty as my primary home defense.
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Old 08-13-2011, 9:46 PM
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This almost makes me want to re-think my 12ga shotty under my bed and replace with my AR. I alway just considered if there were intruders in my house and they heard the rack of my shotgun that they would second think being there before I come out blasting my strobe light I don't know, I always considered my shotty as my primary home defense.
You can't beat 12ga with bird shot for home defense.
It is best way.
7.62? .223? will fly through your target and wall and so on....
If you live deep in the wood by yourself... then centerfire rifle is good choice.
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Old 08-13-2011, 9:55 PM
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in Your opinion, in what type of situations, ULTRA high capacity can be handy and a life saver?

when would a 9mm pistol that is easy to hit with and can fire 20-30 plus rounds w/o a need to reload be a weapon of choice?

When would a 9mm Glock with several 33 rd sticks bring more comfort than a SIG P220 with a couple of mags.



I would like to hear some opinions. ( REALISTIC SITUATIONS ONLY)
I am not a fan of the 33 round magazines. They are just not very practical. 17 round magazines downloaded to 15 rounds are considerably more reliable. The number of rounds the magazine carries is not important if it jams as a result of too much spring pressure.

I have both a 9mm Glock 17 and a 45ACP Kimber Custom II. I spend a lot of time loading magazines and performing emergency reloads with the Kimber. To the point that it is considerably less practical.
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Old 08-13-2011, 9:55 PM
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I knew the CA factor will come up in this discussion .......And caliber too. Ok, let me ask a question in a different way. I what realistic situations would a 9mm full size Glock with several 33rd mags would be a real plus.
A repeat of the Rodney King/L.A riots of 92.
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Old 08-13-2011, 9:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap3572001 View Post
in Your opinion, in what type of situations, ULTRA high capacity can be handy and a life saver?

when would a 9mm pistol that is easy to hit with and can fire 20-30 plus rounds w/o a need to reload be a weapon of choice?

When would a 9mm Glock with several 33 rd sticks bring more comfort than a SIG P220 with a couple of mags.



I would like to hear some opinions. ( REALISTIC SITUATIONS ONLY)
As some others have stated, the difference between modern JHP ammo is very minimal. If we were talking ball ammo, then I'd have to go with a .45 or larger almost every time. However, with the 9mm ammo I have I feel perfectly fine with 7,8,10, or 33 rounds.

Now, if you look at what most trained people do in a shooting situation you'll see that they fire a lot more shots than they thought. I often count 6+ shots for each target from LEO's. If there's a 2-4 person home invasion robbery you can expect to have to shoot at least 3 shots per person. A 1911 would be stretched thin to deal with that many adversaries. A higher cap handgun would be more ideal.

Again, theoretical, as you may be a cracker jack shot and take out all 4 people with one shot.
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Old 08-13-2011, 9:57 PM
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