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  #1  
Old 08-12-2011, 10:27 AM
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Default Why FFLs possessing AOWs and Silencers is legal.

Ok, this project is kind of so I can put this in a Word document and carry it around with my Form 3 as I transport AOWs and silencers about the state.

Special Occupational Tax (SOT): Any dealer can receive an SOT license, you simply apply. The tax year is from July 1 through June 30.

Once you have your SOT, you are federally allowed to possess, sell, and transfer NFA weapons.

However, the State of California limits the possession of machine guns, destructive devices, short barreled shotguns, and short barreled rifles. They do not limit FFL possession of Any Other Weapons (AOWS) and Silencers.

For AOWs
Quote:
PC 12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses ..... any cane gun or wallet gun, … any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container,… any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle ..... any unconventional pistol
(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:
(8) Any other weapon as defined in subsection (e) of Section 5845 of Title 26 of the United States Code and which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the weapons pursuant to the federal Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto. …. The exemption provided in this subdivision does not apply to pen guns.
For silencers
Quote:
12500. The term "silencer" as used in this chapter means any device or attachment of any kind designed, used, or intended for use in silencing, diminishing, or muffling the report of a firearm. The term "silencer" also includes any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling a silencer or fabricating a silencer and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.
12501. Section 12520 shall not apply to, or affect, any of the following:
(a) The sale to, purchase by, or possession of silencers by agencies listed in Section 830.1, or the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States for use in the discharge of their official duties.
(b) The possession of silencers by regular, salaried, full-time peace officers who are employed by an agency listed in Section 830.1, or by the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States when on duty and when the use of silencers is authorized by the agency and is within the course and scope of their duties.
(c) The manufacture, possession, transportation, or sale or other transfer of silencers to an entity described in subdivision (a) by dealers or manufacturers registered under Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
12520. Any person, firm, or corporation who within this state possesses a silencer is guilty of a felony and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison or by a fine not to exceed ten thousand dollars ($10,000) or by both.
The Federal government is clear that your employees who are in possession of these items are not transferees

Quote:
9.5.2 Possession of firearms by employees of FFLs/SOTs for employers’ business purposes. No
“transfer” under the NFA occurs when an FFL/SOT permits a bona fide employee to take custody of its
registered NFA firearms for purposes within the employee’s scope of employment and for the business
purposes of the FFL/SOT. Therefore, no approved ATF transfer form is required when employees take
custody of firearms under these circumstances. In addition, the interstate delivery of a firearm to the
employee and the employee’s receipt of the firearm would not violate the GCA.

Section 12.4 Custody of NFA firearms by employees of FFLs/SOTs. It is common for employees of
FFLs/SOTs to take firearms registered to the FFLs/SOTs off-premises for display, demonstration, or
other purposes on behalf of their registered owners. This does not result in the “transfer” of
NFAfirearms requiring ATF approval and registration of the firearms to the employees as long as the
firearms are possessed for the employer’s business purposes and not for employee’s personal use.
Similarly, employees taking custody of firearms under these circumstances would not constitute a
“firearms disposition” that is required to be recorded in FFL/SOT’s acquisition and disposition records
(A & D Records). Although not legally required, FFLs/SOTs and their employees should consider
taking the following actions as a matter of good business practice:

(1) Keep a copy of the NFA registration document with each registered firearm.

(2) If the firearm is located in an area having State or local registration requirements, keep a copy of
the State/local registration document with the firearm.

(3) Where the firearm is taken off-premises for display, demonstration, or other purposes on behalf
of the registered owner, keep a copy of the NFA and State/local registration documents with the
firearm.

(4) Provide an employee having custody of the registered owner’s firearm away from the licensed
premises with a letter authorizing the employee to possess the firearm on the employer’s behalf.

These actions would help convince law enforcement authorities who encounter the firearm that the
FFL/SOT’s employee is in lawful possession of the firearm and that the firearm is not unlawfully
possessed and subject to seizure.

12.4.1 Who is an “employee” of an FFL/SOT? For purposes of this section, an “employee” is a bona
fide employee of an FFL/SOT on the FFL/SOT’s payroll. An “employee” is not a mere agent of the
FFL/SOT appointed temporarily to take possession of the registered owner’s firearm for a particular
mission. If an agent of an FFL/SOT, rather than a bona fide employee, takes possession of the
FFL/SOT’s registered firearm, a “transfer” occurs subject to registration, tax, and other provisions of the
NFA.
And there you have it.
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Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 12-31-2011 at 10:12 AM..
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  #2  
Old 08-12-2011, 11:58 AM
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Wow! I thought that this section of CA law was like all others where state is more stringent than federal, but I am glad to be wrong.

If any other CA FFL's are reading this - I am a large silencer dealer and I have no problem providing you sales samples for LE/Government sales.

Edit: I'm going to nitpick you. SOT is not a license. It is a special tax stamp. no different from the special tax stamp you find at your local tavern that says ATF on it.
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  #3  
Old 08-12-2011, 10:44 PM
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It's been over a month since I received my SOT, and yet, I have not been able to decide what can to order first. The dealer samples at YHM are tempting. I really want one for a Glock, but the threaded pistol barrel restriction is a roadblock and grinding down the mag release just feels wrong. Maybe a suppressed AK pistol would be fun, but I imagine that the can would block the iron sights, right?
.
.
.
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Old 08-13-2011, 11:06 AM
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Can't beat the price on the Yankee hill cans. If you are interested in the surefire cans let me know we can work something out. Also Gemtech has demo pricing as well.
Mike
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Old 08-13-2011, 12:12 PM
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So do any one of you want to hire me for $1.00 salary so I can travel the state and "Demo" these product(s) for you
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  #6  
Old 08-13-2011, 7:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EBR Works View Post
It's been over a month since I received my SOT, and yet, I have not been able to decide what can to order first. The dealer samples at YHM are tempting. I really want one for a Glock, but the threaded pistol barrel restriction is a roadblock and grinding down the mag release just feels wrong. Maybe a suppressed AK pistol would be fun, but I imagine that the can would block the iron sights, right?
.
.
.

SO, having the SOT will not allow you to have a threaded pistol barrel and therefore can't demo a threaded-on can?? Too bad.

BTW, since DOJ etc. read these threads, should we exercise OPSEC or is it too late in this case??
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  #7  
Old 08-13-2011, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eltee View Post
SO, having the SOT will not allow you to have a threaded pistol barrel and therefore can't demo a threaded-on can?? Too bad.
Negative. Threaded pistol barrel is ok if it is not a detachable magazine pistol.



I am thinking of getting a fixed magazines device for my Glock just for this reason.
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Old 09-26-2011, 3:27 PM
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So if you have a bullet button does that mean you can have a threaded barrel on a pistol?
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  #9  
Old 09-26-2011, 3:43 PM
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Yes.
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Old 09-26-2011, 8:23 PM
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Based on my experience I would stock suppressors from:
YHM - not top of the line, but great value for the money spent and good CS
Gemtech - Doc's one of the best folks I know in the gun biz
AWC - incredible CS, rugged products
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Old 09-27-2011, 9:16 AM
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Any of you FFL's with a class 3 have any issues taking suppressors to the range in CA?
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  #12  
Old 09-27-2011, 9:38 AM
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As long as you have the appropriate documentation for the can, why would it be an issue?
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Old 09-27-2011, 11:26 AM
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I have never even had anyone ask to see my documentation.
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  #14  
Old 09-27-2011, 2:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunSafari View Post
Any of you FFL's with a class 3 have any issues taking suppressors to the range in CA?
Nope. I take the corporation's all over the place.
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  #15  
Old 09-27-2011, 5:08 PM
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Even not in CA, I keep a Form 3 with me whenever possible. Just makes things easier.
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  #16  
Old 12-21-2011, 11:09 PM
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Does it matter if your are an 01 licensed as a individual must you be corporation?
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  #17  
Old 12-21-2011, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remington View Post
Does it matter if your are an 01 licensed as a individual must you be corporation?
Nope. An 01 with a class 3 SOT gets you to can land no matter how your business is structured.
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Old 12-22-2011, 6:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remington View Post
Does it matter if your are an 01 licensed as a individual must you be corporation?
While there are no legal issues, if you don't have one already then get an EIN instead of using your SSN for your business even if you're a sole proprietor, as that number is printed on your SOT.
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  #19  
Old 01-18-2012, 8:27 AM
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Any recs on suppressor companies that are both decent quality and affordable?
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Old 01-18-2012, 5:50 PM
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Ask YHM about their dealer demo program.
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  #21  
Old 01-18-2012, 9:39 PM
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Man, am I glad you're good at this.
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Old 01-19-2012, 6:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MGM Tactical View Post
Any recs on suppressor companies that are both decent quality and affordable?
Define affordable.

I think the industry mean is $5000 in hosts and demo units.
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  #23  
Old 11-09-2012, 6:35 AM
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Just got my SOT to in the mail yesterday..:-)

Recommended docs to carry with us when we have these out and about? Suggestions?
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Old 11-09-2012, 7:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curvejunkie View Post
Just got my SOT to in the mail yesterday..:-)

Recommended docs to carry with us when we have these out and about? Suggestions?
I was working on a document to have on the backside of my Form 3s. I don't remember if I finished that or not. Let me go check and finally finish this project so I am better protected and you guys can use it too.
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Old 11-09-2012, 7:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curvejunkie View Post
Just got my SOT to in the mail yesterday..:-)

Recommended docs to carry with us when we have these out and about? Suggestions?
are you going to be selling AOWs to the public? Should I add you to my list of public-friendly SOTs in CA?
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Old 11-09-2012, 9:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
are you going to be selling AOWs to the public? Should I add you to my list of public-friendly SOTs in CA?
I'd like to be on that list. Should I send a PM with my info?
Toby's Tactical: 07 FFL + SOT
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:14 AM
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Anyone clear on the legality of transporting suppressors over state lines for the purpose of demonstration? I read that one must file a form to transport over state lines but didn't know if it applied in all cases. I'm in California and would like to take them to Nevada for demo's.
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Old 11-09-2012, 7:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby's Tactical View Post
I'd like to be on that list. Should I send a PM with my info?
Toby's Tactical: 07 FFL + SOT
PM would be fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby's Tactical View Post
Anyone clear on the legality of transporting suppressors over state lines for the purpose of demonstration? I read that one must file a form to transport over state lines but didn't know if it applied in all cases. I'm in California and would like to take them to Nevada for demo's.
the form you have probably heard about is hte 5320.20, which is needed for non-licensees to transfer most NFA items across state lines. the 5320.20 is not needed for silencers or AOWs, just for DD, SBx, MG. In additioin,an SOT does not need to file a 5320.20 to transport items that are in your bound book.

so, as long as you destination state allows for those NFA items, you should be fine without needing to file any forms. Just bring documentation that shows that you are legal.
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Old 11-09-2012, 8:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
I was working on a document to have on the backside of my Form 3s. I don't remember if I finished that or not. Let me go check and finally finish this project so I am better protected and you guys can use it too.
That would be great, and much appreciated.
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:11 PM
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Feel free to alter this with your own company information to your heart's desire. I just plan on printing this on the back of all of my Form 3 copies that I keep with the items that way it is all one nice piece of paper.
Attached Files
File Type: doc NFA Authorization.doc (45.5 KB, 138 views)
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Old 11-10-2012, 1:03 PM
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that looks good Wes. One point I would make is that even though you highlighted your SOT exemption, you might want to specifically state how 10% qualifies under that exemption.
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Old 11-10-2012, 1:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
that looks good Wes. One point I would make is that even though you highlighted your SOT exemption, you might want to specifically state how 10% qualifies under that exemption.
I am not following you. Can you be more specific?
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Old 11-10-2012, 2:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
I am not following you. Can you be more specific?
you and I know that you qualify under (c) The manufacture, possession, transportation, or sale or other transfer of silencers to an entity described in subdivision (a) by dealers or manufacturers registered under Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto. But how does your average LEO know that you are a "dealer or manufactured registered under Chapter 53...."? I'm assuming that you are always carrying a copy of your FFL and SOT along with the Form 3, so that might be good enough. I'm just saying that perhaps stating on that Form 3 that 10% is such a dealer registered under Chapter 53 might be helpful.
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Old 11-10-2012, 2:07 PM
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Not sure if it makes sense to state something like "Not a legal document. For reference only." Or if that would create doubt on the part of any law enforcement intended to see the document.
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Old 11-10-2012, 3:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
you and I know that you qualify under (c) The manufacture, possession, transportation, or sale or other transfer of silencers to an entity described in subdivision (a) by dealers or manufacturers registered under Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto. But how does your average LEO know that you are a "dealer or manufactured registered under Chapter 53...."? I'm assuming that you are always carrying a copy of your FFL and SOT along with the Form 3, so that might be good enough. I'm just saying that perhaps stating on that Form 3 that 10% is such a dealer registered under Chapter 53 might be helpful.
Ok, I thought that might be what you were referring to. I do believe the Form 3 on the other side of this letter that shows my gun shop's name and approval for serialized suppressor should suffice. I am out of space to try and list that I am a dealer in Chapter 53 and the Form 3 from the ATF should be enough.

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Originally Posted by Toby's Tactical View Post
Not sure if it makes sense to state something like "Not a legal document. For reference only." Or if that would create doubt on the part of any law enforcement intended to see the document.
I would think it wouldn't make any sense. Really this whole thing is to bluff law enforcement from taking your suppressor. As the ATF explains, we do not need to carry anything as long as we are not using the suppressor for personal use. Even if they take it, once they find out the suppressor was properly transferred on a Form 3, then they have to give it back. As the ATF section above explains, this is just to convince them it isn't worth their time. This letter and the Form 3 with the gun shop name and CA address should suffice. If they read the letter and think it is some sort of legal document, that works for me too. Like you said, if you add doubt in there, that might not be a wise idea.
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Last edited by tenpercentfirearms; 11-10-2012 at 3:49 PM..
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Old 11-10-2012, 4:05 PM
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Thanks for doing this Wes!

I have a relevant question; When at the range with your legally possessed firearm with suppressor, is it legal for a non-employee friend to shoot it in your presence?
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Old 11-10-2012, 4:52 PM
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Demo!
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Old 11-10-2012, 5:22 PM
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Originally Posted by EBR Works View Post
Thanks for doing this Wes!

I have a relevant question; When at the range with your legally possessed firearm with suppressor, is it legal for a non-employee friend to shoot it in your presence?
I believe so. As long as it is still in your possession and under your supervision, no transfer has taken place. That is the whole idea behind a demo.
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Old 11-10-2012, 5:33 PM
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Thanks Wes. I only ask this since I know this is allowable at the Federal level. I'm just not sure if there are any California regs that may restrict this.
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Last edited by EBR Works; 11-14-2012 at 7:23 AM..
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Old 03-07-2013, 7:01 AM
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Just a reminder, the tax year is from July 1st through June 30th each year. That means the new tax year is just under 4 months away. Now might be a good time for you FFLs to make the jump and start selling silencers to LEOs and military or at least stocking up on some of your demo models. This is the best $500 I spend a year and definitely a worth while perk. Get it while you still have the money!
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