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  #1  
Old 07-17-2011, 7:25 AM
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Default California waiting period

From the AG website -

How is the waiting period for firearm purchases calculated?

The waiting period for the purchase or transfer of a firearm is ten (10) 24-hour periods from the date and time of the submission of the DROS information to the DOJ.


Has anyone tried with a 2nd friendly judge to interpret this as 10 concurrent 24 hour periods?

They do it for pokey time.

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Old 07-17-2011, 7:37 AM
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LOL...I don't think the DOJ is that bad at math.
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Old 07-17-2011, 7:46 AM
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You would have to get charged first, but that would be an issue with the FFL and it is really not worth it for a FFL to violate the law for you.
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Old 07-17-2011, 2:20 PM
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Plenty of people (who have more cash than me) do concurrent periods. If you are doing PPTs on multiple handguns, or multiple long guns, you can do concurrent. You just can't do concurrent on handguns in a dealer's inventory because the 30 day rule applies.
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Old 07-17-2011, 2:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by numsii View Post
They do it for pokey time.
They do it for guns too.

If you buy 5 rifles, you don't have to wait 50 days to pick up the last one, or if you have an 03FFL and a COE, you can do the same for handguns.

Like pokey time, it's 10 24-hour periods for each gun just as it is for each convicted charge, and they can be timed concurrently
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 07-17-2011, 2:48 PM
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The 10 day waiting period is supposed to be a "cooling off" period and I can understand it for one's first firearm purchase. What's silly though, is requiring it for 2nd and subsequent firearm purchases. Doesn't the DOJ think that a person could shoot and kill someone with their previous firearm purchases while waiting out the 10 day period for a new purchase? How stupid!!
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Old 07-17-2011, 2:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunDog View Post
The 10 day waiting period is supposed to be a "cooling off" period and I can understand it for one's first firearm purchase. What's silly though, is requiring it for 2nd and subsequent firearm purchases. Doesn't the DOJ think that a person could shoot and kill someone with their previous firearm purchases while waiting out the 10 day period for a new purchase? How stupid!!
This is exactly the angle that the CGF's lawsuit against the waiting period is taking.

It's a mixed blessing of handgun registration... If you already own a handgun, the DOJ knows about it and can't claim that you don't already have access to a gun, so the "cooling off period" should be null for any purchases after your initial handgun purchase.

If DeLeon and his cronies get their way with long gun registration, then the same would apply after your initial long gun purchase.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 07-17-2011, 2:56 PM
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It does not make sense for even the first firearm. Think about it, 10 days? Then think about the fact that this person is so upset that they are going to drive to their local FFL, while not getting pulled over by the police since they are so angry that they want to kill someone, then be calm enough that the FFL sells them a firearm and drive back, again without getting pulled over. Considering the time it all would take, that is NOT the heat of the moment, they would do the same thing even if the waiting period was 30 days, plus if they are that angry, they could just run the person over with their vehicle. It is all an excuse to fool people into thinking that it is "reasonable", but if you think about the details it isn't, plus as you said, there is no reason for having a waiting period on a second firearm. Don't fall for the scam, it is just not reasonable at all.
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Old 07-17-2011, 3:05 PM
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One more issue re the 10 day waiting period......Why require it of someone who already possesses a CCW permit. Other states don't. Most other states if you have a CCW and want to make a handgun purchase it is "cash and carry" following a simple phone call for NICS clearance. Heck the DOJ and police already have your prints and life history on file. Makes absolutely no sense but none of our other gun laws do either!
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Old 07-17-2011, 3:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
It does not make sense for even the first firearm. Think about it, 10 days? Then think about the fact that this person is so upset that they are going to drive to their local FFL, while not getting pulled over by the police since they are so angry that they want to kill someone, then be calm enough that the FFL sells them a firearm and drive back, again without getting pulled over. Considering the time it all would take, that is NOT the heat of the moment, they would do the same thing even if the waiting period was 30 days, plus if they are that angry, they could just run the person over with their vehicle. It is all an excuse to fool people into thinking that it is "reasonable", but if you think about the details it isn't, plus as you said, there is no reason for having a waiting period on a second firearm. Don't fall for the scam, it is just not reasonable at all.
Agreed 100%... but baby steps get the job done more cleanly.

Rather than more "in your face" logic... get them to agree that "Well, ya, he has a gun, so he could kill someone with that one"

After that, we move to show that in the "heat of the moment" other weapons are just as effective.....





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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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  #11  
Old 07-17-2011, 3:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunDog View Post
One more issue re the 10 day waiting period......Why require it of someone who already possesses a CCW permit. Other states don't. Most other states if you have a CCW and want to make a handgun purchase it is "cash and carry" following a simple phone call for NICS clearance. Heck the DOJ and police already have your prints and life history on file. Makes absolutely no sense but none of our other gun laws do either!
Same with the COE (which does exempt me from the 10 days on C&R purchases). I went through the BATFE background check for the 03FFL, as well as the CaDOJ and FBI check for my COE.

If I am exempt from 10 days on C&R, and if the purpose of the 10 days is a "cooling off period"... when why does it not exempt all purchases?
Can I not kill someone just as effectively with a WWII 1911?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 07-17-2011, 3:22 PM
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Yup, I too have a C&R FFL along with my CCW and an ID card from the United States government saying that I am retired from the U. S. military. I was trusted for more than 20 years protecting this country and guarding it's classified information and other interests but, I still have to wait 10 days for a subsequent firearm purchase. How asinine is that?
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Old 07-17-2011, 3:31 PM
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Originally Posted by GunDog View Post
Yup, I too have a C&R FFL along with my CCW and an ID card from the United States government saying that I am retired from the U. S. military. I was trusted for more than 20 years protecting this country and guarding it's classified information and other interests but, I still have to wait 10 days for a subsequent firearm purchase. How asinine is that?
i agree...and thank you for your service sir!
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Old 07-17-2011, 3:33 PM
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but to add if im pissed at someone and want to do something "dirty" im not going to use my own gun. so the cooling off period is useless imo.
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Old 07-17-2011, 3:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunDog View Post
The 10 day waiting period is supposed to be a "cooling off" period and I can understand it for one's first firearm purchase. What's silly though, is requiring it for 2nd and subsequent firearm purchases. Doesn't the DOJ think that a person could shoot and kill someone with their previous firearm purchases while waiting out the 10 day period for a new purchase? How stupid!!
+1

Criminals aren't going to go though the proper background checks and dros procedures anyways if they plan on doing a murder.

Plus they aren't going to want a paper trail and name, finger prints on file anyways.
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Old 07-17-2011, 5:28 PM
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But all of California's gun laws, and most Federal laws, are 100% ineffective at preventing crime in the first place.
The criminal doesn't care if he's violating a gun law... he's going to violate a law anyways, and he doesn't think he'll get caught.
10 year enhancement for using a gun? Okay, he might think twice about using a gun, but it's not going to prevent the crime, and if he thinks it out well enough to where he thinks he won't get caught (stolen gun registered to someone else, handle it with gloves, and ditch it near where it was stolen), then it still won't stop him since he'll figure the registered owner will get busted for it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 07-17-2011, 6:05 PM
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I have question about this. How is the government suppose to know that is your first purchase? Registration exists for handguns so if someone is trying to purchase another one they'll know. What about rifles though?? They aren't registered so how are they suppose to know that is you first and only rifle? It seems like the only way to get around this is to have long guns registered as well, don't you think? When you go through a background check and they see that you already have other rifles then your exempt from the waiting period. I'm not for rifle registration but I can't see away around it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GunDog View Post
The 10 day waiting period is supposed to be a "cooling off" period and I can understand it for one's first firearm purchase. What's silly though, is requiring it for 2nd and subsequent firearm purchases. Doesn't the DOJ think that a person could shoot and kill someone with their previous firearm purchases while waiting out the 10 day period for a new purchase? How stupid!!
How do you know cops are in the area? Many people drive while angry and never get pulled over. Some people can hide things really well, and im sure some FFL will sell the gun regardless. All they have to say is, "well they passed the background check" and thats it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
It does not make sense for even the first firearm. Think about it, 10 days? Then think about the fact that this person is so upset that they are going to drive to their local FFL, while not getting pulled over by the police since they are so angry that they want to kill someone, then be calm enough that the FFL sells them a firearm and drive back, again without getting pulled over. Considering the time it all would take, that is NOT the heat of the moment, they would do the same thing even if the waiting period was 30 days, plus if they are that angry, they could just run the person over with their vehicle. It is all an excuse to fool people into thinking that it is "reasonable", but if you think about the details it isn't, plus as you said, there is no reason for having a waiting period on a second firearm. Don't fall for the scam, it is just not reasonable at all.
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Old 07-17-2011, 6:24 PM
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Just because someone has a CCW doesn't mean they own a gun right? Here's what I mean, let's say someone owns only 1 handgun and they use that for their ccw. Let's say they sold that gun yesterday now they don't have a gun, if they go into their local FFL and show their CCW license, it doesn't mean they own a gun. Now they want to shoot someone because they are angry so they head to their local gun store. Instead of "cooling off" they are sold a gun and walk out with a gun because they "already" have another gun.

To me, the only way for the gov't to know that they don't own a gun is for them to have some type of registration.

I'm not trying to say I want registration, I'm just trying to point out weaknesses in these arguments.
Quote:
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One more issue re the 10 day waiting period......Why require it of someone who already possesses a CCW permit. Other states don't. Most other states if you have a CCW and want to make a handgun purchase it is "cash and carry" following a simple phone call for NICS clearance. Heck the DOJ and police already have your prints and life history on file. Makes absolutely no sense but none of our other gun laws do either!
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Old 07-17-2011, 7:08 PM
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A person who possesses a CCW has already submitted to a background check and fingerprinting. Not only that but, their character is moral background has been subjected to a rigorous investigation by their CLEO. CCW's are typically not handed out like candy to every Joe Smuckatelli on the street.
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Old 07-19-2011, 6:26 AM
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My thinking was that the law stating (ten) 24 hour periods could be sourced from ten different clocks meaning that the first 24 hour period of gun gaol time starts at the same second as all ten 24 hour periods and each 24 hour period ends at the same time.

If you and me buy a shotgun at the same time in the store that would be 20 24 hour periods, yet they end at the same time. Who said that the second out of ten 24 hour periods needs to start at the close of the first?

Hence a literal reading of the law is interpreted a one aggregate 24 hour period with 10 concurrent annotations. Getting an FFL to run with this might be tough because here in America we are all sh*t scared of the Government and likely won't have the fortitude to die to protect our constitutional rights... Or am I wrong?
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Old 07-19-2011, 9:50 AM
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Yes, you're wrong.

There is no more sense in 1 day's wait than there is in 10 days, or any other number. Your suggestion does not reach the heart of the problem, and is a waste of time.
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Old 07-19-2011, 10:04 AM
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Under such thinking, there would be no grace period for credit cards, no one would ever spend more than 1 day in jail (or 1 second if you want to run every second concurrently), your driver license would be good for only one day, etc. There is just no logic to your statement. If you were required to have the waiting periods run consecutively, then it would be a different story.
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Old 07-19-2011, 4:14 PM
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I've always felt: Certify the owner....then let him buy whatever he wants. I really don't have a problem if it requires training/knowledge well beyond the idiotic HSC card questioning.

I've got a safe full of guns. "Cooling off" is turning the combination dial. I've been through background checks and psych tests much more demanding than DOJ's. Waiting 10 days is just stupid.

Most states have Instant Check. Building that database isn't exactly tough. But it seems CA wants their grease each time, with which they've built up this "surplus" (overcharged gun purchasers) and now want to use it for other things.

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Old 07-19-2011, 4:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by numsii View Post
My thinking was that the law stating (ten) 24 hour periods could be sourced from ten different clocks meaning that the first 24 hour period of gun gaol time starts at the same second as all ten 24 hour periods and each 24 hour period ends at the same time.
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Old 07-19-2011, 4:46 PM
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It is a Right, so the owner should only be checked to see if they are prohibited, not certified safe. If a person wants to buy a firearm and then have a friend or hire an instructor to teach then, that should be their choice, not try to force them to know in advance. Or should journalists be certified before they can write an article? (perhaps so, but that is a different issue :-)
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Old 07-19-2011, 7:51 PM
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Looks like you folks have had a gun waiting period for a looooong time:

California has had a waiting period for handgun sales since at least 1923. The California Legislature increased the handgun waiting period from one to three days in 1955, to five days in 1965, and to the current 15 days in 1975. [2] Figure 1, "California Handgun Waiting Periods & Murder Rates" plots the murder rate per 100,000 Californians during the period 1952 through 1990. [3] (The use of a murder *rate*, which counts murders relative to the size of the population, eliminates changes in the number of murders caused by changes in the number of people living in California.)

The increase from one to three days in 1955, and from three to five days in 1965, had no apparent effect on rising murder rates. Indeed, the California murder rate went from a bit above 2/100,000 people in 1952, to over 10/100,000 by 1975. While it is certainly true that murder rates rose throughout the United States during this period, as Figure 1 shows, California's murder rate rose *even faster* than the murder rate for the rest of the United States.

The first full year of the fifteen day waiting period, 1976, showed a 1% decline in murder rates - followed by continually rising murder rates, peaking in 1980. In fact, murder rates didn't start to decline until 1981, five full years after the new waiting period took effect. Can the advocates of waiting periods take heart from the fact that California's murder rates *eventually* fell?

Does a gun waiting period work?? Well, read here:http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/cramer.waiting.html

So, here's a summary.
1923-1955, 1 day waiting period.
1955-1975, 3 day waiting period
1975-1991, 15 day waiting period
1991-Present, 10 day waiting period (dropped to 10 days with the addition of NICS)
--------------------
Meanwhile in Arizona, we have no waiting period on gun sales.
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:31 PM
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I'd rather not wait another 7 days but in 7 days it means nothing. My initial intention to buy the handgun was to add to my collection and try something different. 10 days go by and nothing has changed, what have we accomplished. Brings me back to the old story about my uncle fishing. He catches a big fish, unhooks it and throws it back in. Catches another fishy, throws it back into the water. Third fish he catches he puts in the bucket. "what's he doing." my friend asks.
"going bout his budness"
Uncle catches a third fish, picks them both up and throws em back in.
"why's he throwing that one back in?
"oh he was just trying to make him late form something."
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Old 07-20-2011, 11:10 AM
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and to the current 15 days in 1975.
The current waiting period is not 15 days, but 10. As I recall, it has been 10 days for a long time (perhaps 1975), but there was an additional 5 days for USPS mail delivery, when the DROS had to be sent in. The 5 additional days was removed some time after the DROS was submitted electronically.
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Old 07-20-2011, 8:34 PM
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It's very environmentally unfriendly ontop of everything else!
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Old 07-20-2011, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawk556 View Post
Just because someone has a CCW doesn't mean they own a gun right? Here's what I mean, let's say someone owns only 1 handgun and they use that for their ccw. Let's say they sold that gun yesterday now they don't have a gun, if they go into their local FFL and show their CCW license, it doesn't mean they own a gun. Now they want to shoot someone because they are angry so they head to their local gun store. Instead of "cooling off" they are sold a gun and walk out with a gun because they "already" have another gun.

To me, the only way for the gov't to know that they don't own a gun is for them to have some type of registration.

I'm not trying to say I want registration, I'm just trying to point out weaknesses in these arguments.

Show me how many people use newly purchased guns to kill or commit crimes in states that do not require a "cool down" period and your rebutal may carry some weight. My guess is very little if none at all.

If someone wants to kill another person or kill themselves they will do so no matter what.
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-Rich
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