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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 07-16-2011, 1:39 PM
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Default Is it legal to carry loaded gun on your person in your front and backyards?

And if so, do the same laws apply to you having the right to protect your life if threatened by an intruder approaching you with a gun?
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Old 07-16-2011, 2:00 PM
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Originally Posted by scorpio66 View Post
And if so, do the same laws apply to you having the right to protect your life if threatened by an intruder approaching you with a gun?
Depends. (Doesn't everything?)

See this wiki article -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...oncealed_Carry -- in this case, unlicensed concealed and unlicensed open carry are equivalent, because you're concerned with 'loaded in public'.

The short answer to the first question you pose is 'backyard probably OK, front yard probably not OK'.

Second question, yes, the same laws apply.

In your front yard creates some ambiguity; in your back yard or in your house, things might be somewhat clearer.
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Old 07-16-2011, 2:02 PM
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Good job Librarian.

I would add that one can be threatened by a weapon other than a gun and still lawfully use yours.
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Old 07-16-2011, 2:27 PM
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@ Librarian, but my driveway and front yard are considered private property
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Old 07-16-2011, 2:31 PM
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Originally Posted by scorpio66 View Post
@ Librarian, but my driveway and front yard are considered private property
Unless the front yard is fenced and gated, it is considered "open to the public"

Not unlike the common areas in a condo or apartment complex.
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 07-16-2011, 2:38 PM
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Perfectly legal and normal for ME to carry anywhere on the property I live on. However, I don't live in town.
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Old 07-16-2011, 2:38 PM
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Originally Posted by scorpio66 View Post
@ Librarian, but my driveway and front yard are considered private property
Your private property must be secured enough to "present a challenge" to anyone attempting to enter. A fence and a closed gate are generally considered to "present a challenge". Thorny shrubs would likely suffice as well.
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Old 07-16-2011, 2:41 PM
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Cokebottle is correct. Unless you have a fence on your front yard, it is a "public place".

Now - it doesn't have to be a solid, 6' high fence. You can have a 3' see-through chainlink fence and that still counts as a fence as it provides notice to people that this property is locked and secured and not a "public place".

Also, just because you don't have a fence doesn't mean you aren't allowed to tell people to get off your lawn and call the cops if they're trespassing.

Also, you can defend yourself with lethal force if you are reasonably in fear for your life or great bodily injury. This could mean that you stab someone in the neck with a pen at McDonald's if they're pointing a gun at you (probably a bad idea, but legal).
But if you are in your home at night and someone unknown breaks in, you have the right to use lethal force. Even if it turns out they were unarmed (which you really have no way of knowing by looking at a burglar at 2am in the pitch black of night).


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Originally Posted by Dutch3 View Post
Your private property must be secured enough to "present a challenge" to anyone attempting to enter. A fence and a closed gate are generally considered to "present a challenge". Thorny shrubs would likely suffice as well.
Wasn't aware of the shrubs, that is cool too. Looks helluva lot nicer than a chainlink haha.
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Old 07-16-2011, 2:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Perfectly legal and normal for ME to carry anywhere on the property I live on. However, I don't live in town.
Ya, but you're unincorporated. If I'm not mistaken, you can LOC outside of your property as well "where shooting is not otherwise prohibited"
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 07-16-2011, 2:45 PM
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Ok, so the fact my front yard is not fenced in would be the difference. WTF? Say I'm working in my driveway and I'm approached by someone armed and threatens to shoot me if I don't comply. I'm supposed to be a sitting duck? California law sucks @$$!
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Old 07-16-2011, 2:46 PM
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I think as long as the yard sare FENCED in then you're good. Don't even think about "threatening" or "brandishing" or you're done.

Doesn't matter if someone approaches you. You cannot have a firearm in an openly accessed "public space" — it's horse crap I know. CA is a state for criminals to flourish and law abiding citizens to suffer.

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Old 07-16-2011, 2:48 PM
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Wasn't aware of the shrubs, that is cool too. Looks helluva lot nicer than a chainlink haha.
I would rather pick my way through barbed wire than get near some blackberry bushes.
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Old 07-16-2011, 2:49 PM
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Originally Posted by scorpio66 View Post
Ok, so the fact my front yard is not fenced in would be the difference. WTF? Say I'm working in my driveway and I'm approached by someone armed and threatens to shoot me if I don't comply. I'm supposed to be a sitting duck? California law sucks @$$!
pretty much. better a dead citizen than a dead criminal...that's how our law makers think at least.
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Old 07-16-2011, 2:50 PM
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Ya, but you're unincorporated. If I'm not mistaken, you can LOC outside of your property as well "where shooting is not otherwise prohibited"
I am in unincorporated as well, but if I exit my front gate and take two steps north, I will be in a GFSZ. It's like they are everywhere.
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Old 07-16-2011, 3:04 PM
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I am in unincorporated as well, but if I exit my front gate and take two steps north, I will be in a GFSZ. It's like they are everywhere.
awww yes the gfsz dis-armer....

to the op:
do you live within 1000ft of a school???
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Old 07-16-2011, 3:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Perfectly legal and normal for ME to carry anywhere on the property I live on. However, I don't live in town.
Showoff!

On another note, for those that would like to be armed while working in their front yard, if you have a garage, just move it in there. Even if the garage door is open, as long as your inside your still in the clear. Just like its ok to be inside of any part of your home while armed, the front door being open doesn't change that. Same goes for a garage door.
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Old 07-16-2011, 3:38 PM
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Originally Posted by scorpio66 View Post
@ Librarian, but my driveway and front yard are considered private property
That's why I put in the link to the wiki - to get an idea what the courts think, you have to read the court cases listed there.

Note I did not say 'to understand'...
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Old 07-16-2011, 4:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Connor P Price View Post
Showoff!

On another note, for those that would like to be armed while working in their front yard, if you have a garage, just move it in there. Even if the garage door is open, as long as your inside your still in the clear. Just like its ok to be inside of any part of your home while armed, the front door being open doesn't change that. Same goes for a garage door.
Last night my UPS driver showed up about 6pm. I went outside to meet him with my SP101 sticing out of my front pocket. He handed me a package of ammo that a Calgunner sent me, we talked for a while about the local wildlife, snakes and such. I pointed at where I got my last few rattlers and said "that's why I don't go out without a gun". He never flinched. When you can count on emergency responce times to be +30 minutes (if they are close and know exactly where you are) to several hours (if they can't find your house) having a way to protect yourself is just common place.
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Old 07-16-2011, 4:35 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Last night my UPS driver showed up about 6pm. I went outside to meet him with my SP101 sticing out of my front pocket. He handed me a package of ammo that a Calgunner sent me, we talked for a while about the local wildlife, snakes and such. I pointed at where I got my last few rattlers and said "that's why I don't go out without a gun". He never flinched. When you can count on emergency responce times to be +30 minutes (if they are close and know exactly where you are) to several hours (if they can't find your house) having a way to protect yourself is just common place.
LOL we live parallel lives.
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Old 07-16-2011, 4:43 PM
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@ Librarian, but my driveway and front yard are considered private property
According to my local policia here in SoCal, you may find that your definition of "private property" has nothing to do with reality.
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Old 07-16-2011, 5:30 PM
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Question that I just thought of:
I always pictured just fencing my yard, but I would need a gate on my actual driveway to carry in my driveway, wouldn't I?
So I have to open and close the gate every time I park?
Rad....

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Originally Posted by scorpio66 View Post
Ok, so the fact my front yard is not fenced in would be the difference. WTF? Say I'm working in my driveway and I'm approached by someone armed and threatens to shoot me if I don't comply. I'm supposed to be a sitting duck? California law sucks @$$!
Welcome to the party buddy. haha.
That said, nothing wrong with keeping a loaded shotgun five feet away inside your garage...or putting the fence around your yard.

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Originally Posted by Dutch3 View Post
I would rather pick my way through barbed wire than get near some blackberry bushes.
Agreed! haha. And I always think chain-link looks kinda grungy in neighborhoods. I would never put it around my house. Pickets - maybe, but those don't really help keep anyone out even if they do help with the "public place" conundrum.

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Originally Posted by Dutch3 View Post
I am in unincorporated as well, but if I exit my front gate and take two steps north, I will be in a GFSZ. It's like they are everywhere.
That is such BS. I hate that damn law.
Question: Does a CA CCW exempt someone from the CA GFSZ the same way that is does the fed GFSZ? So you could technically UOC in a school zone if you also had a CA CCW? (I know, why would you, but the question stands).
I know in Arizona I can LOC/CC in a fed GFSZ because I have a CCW.
I did a PPT at RifleGear today and we were talking about the irony in the fact that all the people that OC/CC in Arizona without a permit and go within 1000 feet of a school are technically violating federal law. Probably the dumbest law of them all.

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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Last night my UPS driver showed up about 6pm. I went outside to meet him with my SP101 sticing out of my front pocket. He handed me a package of ammo that a Calgunner sent me, we talked for a while about the local wildlife, snakes and such. I pointed at where I got my last few rattlers and said "that's why I don't go out without a gun". He never flinched. When you can count on emergency responce times to be +30 minutes (if they are close and know exactly where you are) to several hours (if they can't find your house) having a way to protect yourself is just common place.
It is commonplace even in the city in some states. But yeah I see your point.
In Phoenix, a lot of people in the "outskirt suburbs" (still incorporated, but lots of dirt and open space) still open carry all around the area. Those snakes and coyotes don't care where the city limits start and end (and not just the animal versions ).

My dad always open carried when hiking/camping out in the desert when I was a kid and he is probably the least "open carry kinda guy" ever. He has never spoken in length about the 2A or gun-rights, I don't think they concern him much, which is weird. He is purely interested in guns from a self-defense standpoint (which came from years of self-defense training), not a collector by any means.
He still has a CCW though and lives in Palm Beach, FL now haha.

UPS drivers are pretty cool. I had one of the FREIGHT guys part his semi that is twice the length of a normal one on my residential street when he delivered my gun safe. He said "damn this is a tall safe, is it for guns or something". I said yeah and he seemed pretty agreeable about it.
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Old 07-16-2011, 5:39 PM
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Originally Posted by scorpio66 View Post
Ok, so the fact my front yard is not fenced in would be the difference. WTF? Say I'm working in my driveway and I'm approached by someone armed and threatens to shoot me if I don't comply. I'm supposed to be a sitting duck? California law sucks @$$!
You knew that before you posted, and might even be why.
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Old 07-16-2011, 6:23 PM
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Originally Posted by RyanAnchors View Post
Question: Does a CA CCW exempt someone from the CA GFSZ the same way that is does the fed GFSZ?
Yes.
Quote:
So you could technically UOC in a school zone if you also had a CA CCW? (I know, why would you, but the question stands).
No.

Thanks to some people with CCW practicing LOC in Los Angeles, case law has limited CCW to concealed only.

Yes, the way the law is written, it appears that you would be exempt from 12031 while OC, but not with current case law. No case law on UOC in a GFSZ with a CCW, but given the above, I would not chance it.
Quote:
I know in Arizona I can LOC/CC in a fed GFSZ because I have a CCW.
I did a PPT at RifleGear today and we were talking about the irony in the fact that all the people that OC/CC in Arizona without a permit and go within 1000 feet of a school are technically violating federal law. Probably the dumbest law of them all.
And nationwide recip and Constitutional Carry don't change this. To be exempt under Federal law, you have to have a CCW issued by the state in which the school is located.

Even LEO carrying under HR218 are not exempt from the GFSZ unless they have a CCW issued by that state.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 07-16-2011, 7:54 PM
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i love my current rental house,i plan on being here for the next 5-6 years.

2-story with garage,with 6 1/2 ft dogwood fence on side and front,1 side 7ft block wall,and the front gate is wrot-iron 5 3/4ft,front door is behind it all

so i can investigate any noise outside concealed or in hand as it is only accessible to a intruder who hop-ed a fence.gfsz is non consequential,only time i can't carry is in driveway loaded...
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Old 07-16-2011, 8:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Unless the front yard is fenced and gated, it is considered "open to the public"

Not unlike the common areas in a condo or apartment complex.
I generally agree with librarian.

so a condo/appt complex is NOT considered open to the public?
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Old 07-16-2011, 8:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
No.
Thanks to some people with CCW practicing LOC in Los Angeles, case law has limited CCW to concealed only.

Yes, the way the law is written, it appears that you would be exempt from 12031 while OC, but not with current case law. No case law on UOC in a GFSZ with a CCW, but given the above, I would not chance it.
Wow. Figures. Haha.
LOC? Before LOC got canned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
And nationwide recip and Constitutional Carry don't change this. To be exempt under Federal law, you have to have a CCW issued by the state in which the school is located.

Even LEO carrying under HR218 are not exempt from the GFSZ unless they have a CCW issued by that state.
Yes, I knew that reciprocity also didn't cover GFSZ.
and WOW, I didn't know that. The LEOSA doesn't cover school zones?
That seems pretty lame.
So this is one of the reasons people say in some places the CCW actually grants more places you can carry than LEOSA.
That is crazy.
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Old 07-16-2011, 9:20 PM
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Hmmmm - I live on a couple of acres with pipe fencing across the front and the same fencing on two plus remaining sides. Some of the rest is lined with shrubbery, but the driveway has no gate and about another eighty feet is not fenced (yet). However the driveway entrance is off of a private paved road and the street sign says private road on it. The property does front on a public roadway.

From reading the link posted by Librarian, I think my property would not qualify as open to the public. In any case, I live in the county and doubt anyone would think twice about a pistol butt sticking out of my hip pocket?
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Old 07-16-2011, 9:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RyanAnchors View Post
Question that I just thought of:
I always pictured just fencing my yard, but I would need a gate on my actual driveway to carry in my driveway, wouldn't I?
So I have to open and close the gate every time I park?
I do. It's a pain, especially in the rain. The main reason I keep my gates closed all of the time is to keep my neighbors' dogs out of my yard.
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Old 07-16-2011, 10:15 PM
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so a condo/appt complex is NOT considered open to the public?
The 'common areas' generally ARE considered open to the public - see, particularly, People v Overturf at the wiki link.
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Old 07-16-2011, 10:16 PM
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In the past, local Sheriffs have refused our trespassing and theft complaints multiple times, because our property is "publicly accessible."

Our property begins 2 miles after the public road ends, was fenced by 8' chain link on all perimeters and access points except the 400' of frontage which was around our house (who wants that much ugly fence right next to their house?) Because of this lapse in GTFO fence, anyone on our property "cannot be charged with trespassing," even if they were stealing fruit...

Now we have installed and operate 3 electric gates (on top of 3 manual gates), an extra 200' of wrought iron and about as much thick oleander, just to preserve our right of ownership. Comes in handy, keeps the Jehovah's Witnesses and fund raisers away.

But it takes a big F OFF fence, to preserve many of your rights, you would ordinarily assume you have.
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Old 07-16-2011, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by luckystrike View Post
I generally agree with librarian.

so a condo/appt complex is NOT considered open to the public?
No... it IS considered open to the public.

Even worse than your front yard... a gated community is still common area.
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Old 07-17-2011, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
No... it IS considered open to the public.

Even worse than your front yard... a gated community is still common area.
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Old 07-17-2011, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by stitchnicklas View Post
awww yes the gfsz dis-armer....

to the op:
do you live within 1000ft of a school???
yes...I'm sure that makes it worse. Actually no...I live within 1,584 ft.

Last edited by scorpio66; 07-17-2011 at 12:33 PM.. Reason: to correct
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Old 07-17-2011, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by stitchnicklas View Post
awww yes the gfsz dis-armer....

to the op:
do you live within 1000ft of a school???
Oh, and I google mapped that address....San Antonio, NM?
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Old 07-17-2011, 4:42 PM
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Of course, you could always OC unloaded with a magazine in your pocket, even in your unfenced front yard, right?
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Old 07-17-2011, 5:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave A View Post
Hmmmm - I live on a couple of acres with pipe fencing across the front and the same fencing on two plus remaining sides. Some of the rest is lined with shrubbery, but the driveway has no gate and about another eighty feet is not fenced (yet). However the driveway entrance is off of a private paved road and the street sign says private road on it. The property does front on a public roadway.

From reading the link posted by Librarian, I think my property would not qualify as open to the public. In any case, I live in the county and doubt anyone would think twice about a pistol butt sticking out of my hip pocket?
Just curious, if you are that remote...do you live in an unincorporated area anyway?
You might be able to LOC where you live.

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Originally Posted by Quickbeam View Post
Of course, you could always OC unloaded with a magazine in your pocket, even in your unfenced front yard, right?
If your front yard is not in a school zone, yes.
Though not illegal, it is not recommended to conceal loaded magazines while UOCing (officer interpretation can vary).
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Old 07-17-2011, 5:35 PM
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Of course, you could always OC unloaded with a magazine in your pocket, even in your unfenced front yard, right?
No.

Revolver UOC with a speedloader in your pocket is okay, but a concealed, loaded magazine for a semi-auto will get you popped for 12031.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 07-17-2011, 5:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
No.

Revolver UOC with a speedloader in your pocket is okay, but a concealed, loaded magazine for a semi-auto will get you popped for 12031.
You mean for 12025.
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Old 07-17-2011, 5:47 PM
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You mean for 12025.
Both actually.

Loaded and concealed. Two misdemeanors for 1st offense.
Felony for 2nd offense.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 07-17-2011, 5:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Both actually.

Loaded and concealed. Two misdemeanors for 1st offense.
Felony for 2nd offense.
But if the magazine is in your pocket it isnt in a position from which the ammunition could be fired. That also doesnt take into account that it would be no violation if the person was in unincorporated territory where discharge wasnt prohibited.
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