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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 07-04-2011, 2:02 PM
Randee Randee is offline
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Default Short stroking in a rifle length?

Hey everyone!

Hope you are all enjoying your 4th of July!

I got the chance to do some shooting out in Arizona with some family yesterday, considering everyone else is into the whole AK thing I thought I would show them whats up with my AR...

Unfortunately I had a lot of short stroking issues when I started using Tula. I also had alot of failure to feeds, the bolt would seem to get stuck on the round trying to get into the chamber, as well as one failure to extract. I have had the issue of short stroking before with PMC as well and was told that something was inhibiting my buffer and spring. I would like to get some input and see what you guys think might be the issue.

Setup:
BCM 18 inch SPR upper, rifle length gas system
JP/Vtac rifle length handguard
BCM BCG
Surefire MB556k
Carbine buffer, bufferspring, tube
ACS stock
Mega Lower
Windowed Pmags

Ammo:
XM193
Tula .223
Ammo Bros .223 reloads

SO, my thought is that the Tula is underpowered and is short stroking, I noticed it would sometimes glance over and fail to chamber the next round. BUT, I am curious why the Ammo bros reloads didn't have the same issue. I shot about 100 rounds of the XM which was flawless, 100 rounds of the AB reloads which had no hiccups, but the Tula had issues.

Anything I can do to alleviate this? The gun seemed ok when I went through the first few mags of Tula and then began to have issues as the day went on.

Any help of input is appreciated!
Thanks everyone
-Randy

Last edited by Randee; 07-04-2011 at 2:06 PM..
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  #2  
Old 07-04-2011, 2:11 PM
prerunners4life prerunners4life is offline
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Tula is the only ammo I have EVER had problems with..

Brown bear, silver bear, wolf, anything I put through my AR always works and I love my rifle for that.. Tryed tulle once and I would have to smack the forward assist everytime or it would fail to feed, that ammo is the only ammo I don't shoot
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  #3  
Old 07-04-2011, 2:17 PM
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Tula is weak. XM193 is 5.56mm, not .223 like the Tula so it will be stronger. The AmmoBros reloads were just loaded hotter than the Tula. Part of the extraction issue is just due to the straight chamber of an AR. Also, your chamber may be a bit tight. During the firing cycle steel expands but unlike brass doesn't really retract after the pressure drops. That is another reason why steel isn't as reliable in an AR as brass.
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  #4  
Old 07-04-2011, 2:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh3239 View Post
Tula is weak. XM193 is 5.56mm, not .223 like the Tula so it will be stronger. The AmmoBros reloads were just loaded hotter than the Tula. Part of the extraction issue is just due to the straight chamber of an AR. Also, your chamber may be a bit tight. During the firing cycle steel expands but unlike brass doesn't really retract after the pressure drops. That is another reason why steel isn't as reliable in an AR as brass.
That was what I was thinking, but it makes me wonder why Hornady Tap Training had no issues in my AR. It also makes me wonder why rounds werent getting all the way into the chamber.
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Old 07-04-2011, 2:26 PM
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BCM's have a mil spec gas port. I think you need about 500-700 rounds of natural gas port erosion to run inconsistent under powered Russian ammo reliably. This is just a guess though. Really I have no idea.
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  #6  
Old 07-04-2011, 6:26 PM
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Coltn46920 makes a good point. There will be gas port break in, I noticed a difference in my old carbines after a hundred round or so.
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  #7  
Old 07-04-2011, 8:09 PM
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Just wondering why you would run a Carbine buffer & bufferspring on a rifle length gas system?

+1 Tula ammo is weak sauce....
go get some of these http://palmettostatearmory.com/2251.php
& shoot the hell out of it
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  #8  
Old 07-04-2011, 8:26 PM
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Switching between steel cased and brass cased ammo causes issues. Steel is less elastic than brass so it doesn't expand and seal the chamber as well as brass does when round is set off. This results in some seepage around the case which builds up. When you then load brass cased stuff, it gets stuck because the brass expands more than the steel does due to it's greater elasticity. Stick with steel or brass, don't mix them and you'll reduce your headaches
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  #9  
Old 07-04-2011, 8:33 PM
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TUla/Wolf is underpowered ammo.
Has nothing to do with brass vs steel case.
Hornady TAP uses their own powder with Wolf cases which is a hotter load. Thats why it will feed fine.
Why are you using a rifle gas system with a carbine buffer? That in and of itself could possibly be one issue.

I run a midlength with rifle buffer- failure with Wolf on occasion. midlength with carbine buffer- no issues.
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  #10  
Old 07-04-2011, 8:40 PM
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Tula causes issues in my friend's RRA 16" carbine upper. Short stroke, stuck cases, you name it. No issues with other ammo. My sig 556 and my former Century Arms C93 ate it as steady diet without hiccup.
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  #11  
Old 07-04-2011, 9:15 PM
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The gas tube length/location of the gas port has nothing to do with the buffer extensions. If you want to have a collapsible stock you must use a carbine extension and buffer and if you want a fixed stock you must use a rifle length extension and buffer. Whether your gas tube is a rifle length, mid length or carbine it still sticks into the upper the same amount and cycles the rifle the same way.

The OP most likely has an 18'' or 20'' barrel and is running a collapsible stock. That is the combo necessary for a rifle length barrel and collapsible stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardluck View Post
Just wondering why you would run a Carbine buffer & bufferspring on a rifle length gas system?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagearms View Post
Why are you using a rifle gas system with a carbine buffer? That in and of itself could possibly be one issue.
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  #12  
Old 07-05-2011, 6:14 AM
Randee Randee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coltn46920 View Post
BCM's have a mil spec gas port. I think you need about 500-700 rounds of natural gas port erosion to run inconsistent under powered Russian ammo reliably. This is just a guess though. Really I have no idea.
I have about 3k round down range with this setup, or do you mean I need to run between 500-700 rounds of the Tula to get some erosion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh3239 View Post
The gas tube length/location of the gas port has nothing to do with the buffer extensions. If you want to have a collapsible stock you must use a carbine extension and buffer and if you want a fixed stock you must use a rifle length extension and buffer. Whether your gas tube is a rifle length, mid length or carbine it still sticks into the upper the same amount and cycles the rifle the same way.

The OP most likely has an 18'' or 20'' barrel and is running a collapsible stock. That is the combo necessary for a rifle length barrel and collapsible stock.
Exactly right Josh, BCM 18inch SPR upper, I run an ACS stock and have had no issues until I started tinkering with Tula
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  #13  
Old 07-05-2011, 8:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randee View Post
Hey everyone!

Hope you are all enjoying your 4th of July!

I got the chance to do some shooting out in Arizona with some family yesterday, considering everyone else is into the whole AK thing I thought I would show them whats up with my AR...

Unfortunately I had a lot of short stroking issues when I started using Tula. I also had alot of failure to feeds, the bolt would seem to get stuck on the round trying to get into the chamber, as well as one failure to extract. I have had the issue of short stroking before with PMC as well and was told that something was inhibiting my buffer and spring. I would like to get some input and see what you guys think might be the issue.

Setup:
BCM 18 inch SPR upper, rifle length gas system
JP/Vtac rifle length handguard
BCM BCG
Surefire MB556k
Carbine buffer, bufferspring, tube
ACS stock
Mega Lower
Windowed Pmags

Ammo:
XM193
Tula .223
Ammo Bros .223 reloads

SO, my thought is that the Tula is underpowered and is short stroking, I noticed it would sometimes glance over and fail to chamber the next round. BUT, I am curious why the Ammo bros reloads didn't have the same issue. I shot about 100 rounds of the XM which was flawless, 100 rounds of the AB reloads which had no hiccups, but the Tula had issues.

Anything I can do to alleviate this? The gun seemed ok when I went through the first few mags of Tula and then began to have issues as the day went on.

Any help of input is appreciated!
Thanks everyone
-Randy
You have an upper that is CORRECTLY gased for it's caliber: 5.56 NATO. The gas port hole is not gonna change, and the hole was not drilled large enough to cycle weak Russian .223 ammo. I swear, people think that just because .223 fits in the 5.56 chamber it's gonna shoot fine. I blame the Russian stuff actually, because I would bet that PMC bronze .223, Sellier & Bellot .223 or Fiochi .223 would cycle fine. Black Hills .223 is also usually a no brainer. My brother has a new Colt 6940 that also WILL NOT cycle Herters or Wolf .223. The concensus in here is that your rifle should be OVER GASED in order to be great, which is what allows people to cycle weak Russian loads in their 5.56 weapons........ otherwise all other CORRECTLY gased weapons are POS's. I will take the softer correctly gased weapon anytime over the over gased one.
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Old 07-05-2011, 8:24 AM
Randee Randee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missiontrails View Post
You have an upper that is CORRECTLY gased for it's caliber: 5.56 NATO. The gas port hole is not gonna change, and the hole was not drilled large enough to cycle weak Russian .223 ammo. I swear, people think that just because .223 fits in the 5.56 chamber it's gonna shoot fine. I blame the Russian stuff actually, because I would bet that PMC bronze .223, Sellier & Bellot .223 or Fiochi .223 would cycle fine. Black Hills .223 is also usually a no brainer. My brother has a new Colt 6940 that also WILL NOT cycle Herters or Wolf .223. The concensus in here is that your rifle should be OVER GASED in order to be great, which is what allows people to cycle weak Russian loads in their 5.56 weapons........ otherwise all other CORRECTLY gased weapons are POS's. I will take the softer correctly gased weapon anytime over the over gased one.
Ummm, I didn't necessarily just assume that it would cycle fine. Having had the same issue with PMC Bronze, I kind of expected the occasional short stroke or failure to lock back, in fact I expected to have slight these issues here and there but not consistent failures to feed & short stroking.

In fact, the only reason I shot it is because I didnt want to blow through all of my XM this past weekend. I see your point in assuming that brass cased ammo would be fine but like I said, the PMC had issues itself - so realistically I am trying to find an explanation and potential solution so I never have this issue again.

After I finish whats left of this batch of Tula it is going to go onto the banned list for my weapon alongside PMC, so far the only reliable steel cased ammo I have used has been Hornady Tap Training.
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Old 07-05-2011, 8:36 AM
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my AR runs tula and other russian crap exclusively since day one. over 10k rounds later, it's still running strong.

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Old 07-05-2011, 8:59 AM
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I would be cautious about using your bolt assist to seat any ammo into your chamber unless time is really important however unlikely this could be a sign of out of spec ammunition which could lead to overpressure just playing safety sally
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Old 07-05-2011, 9:08 AM
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I would be cautious about using your bolt assist to seat any ammo into your chamber unless time is really important however unlikely this could be a sign of out of spec ammunition which could lead to overpressure just playing safety sally
? isn't that what the bolt assist is for? the mag was full and it didn't want to let the round slide forward. it's common with USGI mags when loaded to full capacity. the top round drags along the feed lips and get stuck.
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Old 07-05-2011, 5:43 PM
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So we seem to have slightly strayed off the wayside gents.

Does anyone have any recommendations for me to alleviate these issues if I am in a situation where I have to run this ammo again?

Thanks for everyone's input btw!
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Old 07-05-2011, 8:56 PM
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Since you already have a carbine buffer which is the lightest from my understanding and your still short stroking I guess I would see if you can get a weaker buffer spring or tune it or change out your bolt carrier to an ar15 style you probably have a M16 bolt carrier if its BCM.

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Last edited by Dhena81; 01-28-2012 at 3:42 PM..
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