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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 12-27-2006, 3:16 PM
Spawn_X Spawn_X is offline
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Default PP sale in CA

Hi. I've got someone who's interested in buying my 9mm.

I'm in SoCal, he's in NorCal

Can I ship it to his FFL myself? Or do I need an FFL down here to ship it to his FFL?

His FFL said that I can ship myself as long as I include the driver's license and info, my local FFL said that it needs to be shipped FFL to FFL

I'm sure this has been covered, but I searched and got too many results that weren't what I needed

I did find this
Quote:
Or you can have the gun sent to someone's FFL...only that tends to add to the cost as it has to go overnight...or USPS sent by an FFL...and both cases probably will increase the cost for the buyer. Of course, if the deal is good enough he may not care.


Appreciate the help! Thank you
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  #2  
Old 12-27-2006, 3:21 PM
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As long as you're shipping the firearm to a FFL, you're fine. It may be more convenient for you to ship through your local FFL if you don't have something like a UPS hub close by that accepts firearms. You cannot ship a handgun via the U.S. Postal Service... FYI.
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  #3  
Old 12-27-2006, 3:22 PM
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Its not law that an FFL only ship to another FFL. But the FFL's prefer this as its a lot easier to get stung by a frame up when you allow just any tom dick or harry to send you a firearm and he wants a copy of your Licence or ID to know who its coming from and to know what to enter into his bound book.

If an FFL accepts a UPS package he can be setup and or framed If he only accepts packages from FFL's that he knows there is a lot less of a chance this will happen.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn_X
Hi. I've got someone who's interested in buying my 9mm.

I'm in SoCal, he's in NorCal

Can I ship it to his FFL myself? Or do I need an FFL down here to ship it to his FFL?

His FFL said that I can ship myself as long as I include the driver's license and info, my local FFL said that it needs to be shipped FFL to FFL

I'm sure this has been covered, but I searched and got too many results that weren't what I needed

I did find this




Appreciate the help! Thank you
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  #4  
Old 12-27-2006, 3:23 PM
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FFL only needs to be on the recieving end. If his FFL will accept it from a Non-FFL you are fine in shipping it yourself. Just use UPS or Fedex and make sure you declare it as a firearm when you ship, they will make you overnight it. Also if its not PPT it will have to be on the approved list, just a heads up.
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  #5  
Old 12-27-2006, 4:53 PM
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It is no longer a PPT if it is shipped to an FFL.

If it is no longer a PPT, then the handgun (I'm assuming it is, since you said it is 9mm) needs to be on the approved list.
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  #6  
Old 12-27-2006, 6:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leelaw
It is no longer a PPT if it is shipped to an FFL.

If it is no longer a PPT, then the handgun (I'm assuming it is, since you said it is 9mm) needs to be on the approved list.
Not true if you follow the CA procedures. If you are a CA PRIVATE PARTY and wish to sell your firearm to CA PRIVATE PARTY in another part of the state you can have your firearm shipped to a FFL in the buyers area. Here is how you do this; Take your firearm to a FFL. Have the FFL PRINT a DROS form for Gun Shows and fill out the "Sellers Information" section of the form and make a copy of your CA DL or ID card on the back ( I also ask for the sellers thumb print) and SWIPE the DL or ID and print the info on the back of the form like for Gun Show transactions when a computer is not available. With this DROS filled out the FFL can ship this firearm to the buyers FFL and the paperwork can be filled out. To do this the FFL must ship the firearm as verification it is the firearm that came from that person. Shipping cost should be lower then the cost of driving to do the transfer. This is how I was told by the DOJ to do this type of transaction.
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  #7  
Old 12-27-2006, 7:50 PM
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problem is, if my shop does it, they want 60 bucks. so the cost of two FFLs and shipping (overnight?) might kill the deal, which is why I'm trying to confirm it
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  #8  
Old 12-27-2006, 7:56 PM
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You have no problem You can LEGALLY ship firearms to FFL. IF it is the handgun it should be on approved list.
Make sure that you have SIGNED copy of FFL licence, after you receive it go to ATF website and verify that this is legitimate FFL.
Get money
Ship it UPS.

Done
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  #9  
Old 12-27-2006, 7:56 PM
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I ran into a problem. Fedex will ship but not a fedex kinkos. You have to go to a main hub.
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  #10  
Old 12-27-2006, 9:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mscales5
Not true if you follow the CA procedures. If you are a CA PRIVATE PARTY and wish to sell your firearm to CA PRIVATE PARTY in another part of the state you can have your firearm shipped to a FFL in the buyers area. Here is how you do this; Take your firearm to a FFL. Have the FFL PRINT a DROS form for Gun Shows and fill out the "Sellers Information" section of the form and make a copy of your CA DL or ID card on the back ( I also ask for the sellers thumb print) and SWIPE the DL or ID and print the info on the back of the form like for Gun Show transactions when a computer is not available. With this DROS filled out the FFL can ship this firearm to the buyers FFL and the paperwork can be filled out. To do this the FFL must ship the firearm as verification it is the firearm that came from that person. Shipping cost should be lower then the cost of driving to do the transfer. This is how I was told by the DOJ to do this type of transaction.
I wouldn't go advertising that you actually do this, PPT is face-to-face at the dealer, both buyer and seller present. If you can get documentation from DOJ that this is acceptable, then you will be a god among men. Otherwise, a phone call from DOJ saying this or that means absolutely jack-****.
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  #11  
Old 12-27-2006, 9:34 PM
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mscale5 above is a dealer that got this process from DOJ. That's a bit better than what we civilians get.

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  #12  
Old 12-28-2006, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kantstudien
I wouldn't go advertising that you actually do this, PPT is face-to-face at the dealer, both buyer and seller present. If you can get documentation from DOJ that this is acceptable, then you will be a god among men. Otherwise, a phone call from DOJ saying this or that means absolutely jack-****.
I was told this is the way to do this FROM and BY the DOJ. It was their instructions on how to do this that I stated. It is done exactly as a "Gun Show Transaction" when a computer is not available. At a gunshow a seller can do exactly the same thing with a printed DROS form except for the "swipe" but the seller is FTF with the dealer so the dealer can verify that he matches the ID. If the seller is NOT FTF with FFL transfering then the seller must go to a FFL and have the from done, ID swiped and info printed on the back along with a copy of the ID. This DROS form is then shipped with the firearm to the transfering dealer who can charge no more then $10 for a PPT unless he does a "add-on" for paperwork or the Safe Handling Demonstration Affidavit. It is still a PPT and limited to that fee. The receiving FFL had to do the same work as a FTF PPT so it shouldn't matter.
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Last edited by mscales5; 12-28-2006 at 11:03 AM..
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  #13  
Old 12-28-2006, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mscales5
It is done exactly as a "Gun Show Transaction" when a computer is not available. At a gunshow a seller can do exactly the same thing with a printed DROS form except for the "swipe" but the seller is FTF with the dealer so the dealer can verify that he matches the ID. If the seller is NOT FTF with FFL transfering then the seller must go to a FFL and have the from done, ID swiped and info printed on the back along with a copy of the ID. This DROS form is then shipped with the firearm to the transfering dealer who can charge no more then $10 for a PPT unless he does a "add-on" for paperwork or the Safe Handling Demonstration Affidavit. It is still a PPT and limited to that fee. The receiving FFL had to do the same work as a FTF PPT so it shouldn't matter.
Mike,

So can this "PPT-by-remote" procedure you described above, with 2 CA residents at opposite ends of state, be used for non-approved handguns?
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  #14  
Old 12-28-2006, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese
Mike,

So can this "PPT-by-remote" procedure you described above, with 2 CA residents at opposite ends of state, be used for non-approved handguns?
Yes, for any listed or non listed or long guns. This first came up when a ATF agent and customer of mine wanted a Colt Detective Special (I believe it was) that was down in way Southern CA and he saw it while doing a investigation ( not of firearms but a bombing and fire). He later decided he wanted it but didn't want to drive back down. I called the DOJ and was told I could use the gun show method as long as the DROS printed form was used and everything was followed as I described above. I personally want a thumb print of the the seller included for my protection. This form and all the required info, which is the same as in a FTF PPT including the signature on the form, is then sent with the firearm to the transfering dealer. Now, the receiving FFL can charge for the exchange of paperwork (sending his FFL) or other add-on charges but the PP transfer can only be charged as $10 and $25 DROS fee. Any dealer can UP-CHARGE a "added fee" but has to list it seperately as other then a DROS or PPT fee. Heck, in Las Vegas I get charged a "Energy fee" for every night I spend in a hotel that is above and beyond the price of the room and other services but it is NEVER disclosed in the cost of the room when you call to make a reservation. Well, a FFL can do the same thing at their discretion.
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  #15  
Old 02-23-2007, 12:18 PM
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If all this is indeed correct, we should tack this thread.
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  #16  
Old 02-27-2007, 8:07 PM
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So if I guy from Chino Hills CA, who did not hold any FFL's, sent hand gun, which was not on the CA approved list, to a FFL here in Northern CA, on my behalf;
  1. The FFL would not be obligated to transfer the handgun to me, and
  2. If he did make the transfer, he could charge the $20.00 for the state DROS fees plus what ever he wanted for his fee...
Do have that right?


If we followed the above "Gun Show" or "PPT-by-Remote" procedure then
  1. The FFL would be obligated to make the transfer and
  2. He/She would have to limit his fee to $10.00...
Is that correct?

Man, I wish I had the info a week ago...
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  #17  
Old 03-01-2007, 9:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-V View Post
So if I guy from Chino Hills CA, who did not hold any FFL's, sent hand gun, which was not on the CA approved list, to a FFL here in Northern CA, on my behalf;
  1. The FFL would not be obligated to transfer the handgun to me, and
  2. If he did make the transfer, he could charge the $20.00 for the state DROS fees plus what ever he wanted for his fee...
Do have that right?

Reply: State registration fee is $25. No FFL can refuse to do a PPT but they can refuse to receive a firearm so you would ahve to find one that would do this type of transfer but it is not really any different then a FTF.

If we followed the above "Gun Show" or "PPT-by-Remote" procedure then
  1. The FFL would be obligated to make the transfer and
  2. He/She would have to limit his fee to $10.00...
Is that correct?

Reply: As a PTP a dealer can only charge $10. However, any dealer in CA can charge a additional fee such as "Documentation fee" or a fee that is NOT added to the registration fee or PPT fee. Just like a car dealer adds in a "documention fee" to pay for the time it takes to process the paperwork.


Man, I wish I had the info a week ago...
As some know, there are dealers that do charge a fee above the registration fee and it is legal to do as long as it in NOT included as part of the registration or PPT fee.
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Old 03-01-2007, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn_X View Post
problem is, if my shop does it, they want 60 bucks. so the cost of two FFLs and shipping (overnight?) might kill the deal, which is why I'm trying to confirm it
That's why your FFL wants to ship it for you... Send it yourself, save the unnecessary handling charge.
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Old 03-01-2007, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
Mike,

So can this "PPT-by-remote" procedure you described above, with 2 CA residents at opposite ends of state, be used for non-approved handguns?
Wouldn't this in theory allow PPTs for non-approved handguns coming from out of state? The hangup has always been that the receiving FFL has to log the handgun and thus requires it to be on the DOJ list in order to "sell" it back out. A PPT even from out of state wouldn't apply, right?

Or is it being said that only two CA residents can take advantage of this?

I'd more readily purchase guns from our bretheren in SoCal if this is the case, I always avoided them because of the high transfer fee when shipping to a local FFL here in NorCal.

Or is this because the aforementioned is a LEO?

Very interesting...
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Old 03-01-2007, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimbercarry View Post
private party is face to face.both have to be present.i'm sure if you look back at some of wes' comments you'll see that.the gun will have to be on the list for that dealer to transfer
In the case of PPT, I think there is an exception...
When I get a chance I'll check the regs.
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Old 03-01-2007, 3:12 PM
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Whatever the logistics are around the details, I have found that it really boils down the the individual FFL holder, similar to those that will transfer OLL's. I just completed a Calguns purchase SoCal to NorCal, private party to FFL, that was written up as a PPT, $35 fee. While searching for a dealer I got a variety of responses ...

- No, I will only accept firearms from an FFL holder
- Yes, but it will be treated as a retail exchange (higher cost and 30 day limit applies)
- Yes, PPT if fine, sender just has fill out the seller's portion of the DROS and include a copy of their driver's license
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Old 03-02-2007, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franksremote View Post
Wouldn't this in theory allow PPTs for non-approved handguns coming from out of state? The hangup has always been that the receiving FFL has to log the handgun and thus requires it to be on the DOJ list in order to "sell" it back out. A PPT even from out of state wouldn't apply, right?

Reply: A PPT is for CA residents ONLY. Both parties of a PPT MUST be CA residents.

Or is it being said that only two CA residents can take advantage of this?

Reply: Yes, that is what is being said. A out of state firearm is NOT a PPT.

I'd more readily purchase guns from our bretheren in SoCal if this is the case, I always avoided them because of the high transfer fee when shipping to a local FFL here in NorCal.

Reply: A dealer can only charge $10 for the PPT part of the deal but the FFL can charge a fee for the execution of the Safe Handling Demonstration AFFIDAVITT or a documentatin fee as stated above IF it is not added to teh state registration fee or PPT fee. Question: Why is it that people want gun dealers to make NO MONEY for their time spent? Do you realize you pay your gardners more money per hour then your gun dealer makes?

Or is this because the aforementioned is a LEO?

Reply: No, it is a PPT thing

Very interesting...
If you read what I have posted on this thread about PPTs your questons are answered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimbercarry
private party is face to face.both have to be present.i'm sure if you look back at some of wes' comments you'll see that.the gun will have to be on the list for that dealer to transfer
This is NOT correct and is not the only way to do a PPT. A PPT can be carried out the same as if done at a gun show with a consignment firearm. I have already posted on how to do this and it is correct according to the CA-DOJ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hi-desert
Whatever the logistics are around the details, I have found that it really boils down the the individual FFL holder, similar to those that will transfer OLL's. I just completed a Calguns purchase SoCal to NorCal, private party to FFL, that was written up as a PPT, $35 fee. While searching for a dealer I got a variety of responses ...

- No, I will only accept firearms from an FFL holder
- Yes, but it will be treated as a retail exchange (higher cost and 30 day limit applies)
- Yes, PPT if fine, sender just has fill out the seller's portion of the DROS and include a copy of their driver's license
hi-desert is correct, it all comes down to what the FFL will do. However, a PPT fee is $10 and state registration is $15 for a total of $35. If a dealer writes it up as a single fee of $35 they may get into some trouble as a PPT fee is limited to $10 as stated by DOJ. Some FFLs will only accept the firearm fromanother dealer since the dealer verifies the sellers ID. I will only receive/accept a shipped PPT firearm that has been verified by a FFL. ID verification is the only thing that can protect a FFL in doing any transfer.
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Last edited by mscales5; 03-02-2007 at 10:42 AM..
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Old 03-02-2007, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
If you read what I have posted on this thread about PPTs your questons are answered.
As this was the first I (and apparently many others) have heard about this, clarity was sought. Your post was read and these questions arose out of what was said. One person's interpretation is not always the right one, kinda like the firearm loan thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mscales5 View Post
Question: Why is it that people want gun dealers to make NO MONEY for their time spent? Do you realize you pay your gardners more money per hour then your gun dealer makes?
I want FFLs to make all of the money possible. My point is that I have to consider an additional $100 to the purchase cost if I have to have a firearm sent to my FFL from out of the area/state. A $500 used pistol from AZ is still more expensive in the end than a local PPT for $560 for the same pistol. That's my buying choice and not about how much an FFL is perceived to make on the transaction.

My gardner doesn't have the ability to upsell every one of their customers, it's about capitalizing on business opportunities not just maximizing profit on one single transaction. Wanna make more than my gardner? Ask if I need anything else; your profit on extra mags, holster, belt, ammmo or a caliber specific bore snake will quickly outweigh the nominal fee you make from the PPT itself.

Last edited by Franksremote; 03-02-2007 at 11:29 AM..
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Old 03-02-2007, 4:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franksremote View Post
As this was the first I (and apparently many others) have heard about this, clarity was sought. Your post was read and these questions arose out of what was said. One person's interpretation is not always the right one, kinda like the firearm loan thread.



I want FFLs to make all of the money possible. My point is that I have to consider an additional $100 to the purchase cost if I have to have a firearm sent to my FFL from out of the area/state. A $500 used pistol from AZ is still more expensive in the end than a local PPT for $560 for the same pistol. That's my buying choice and not about how much an FFL is perceived to make on the transaction.

My gardner doesn't have the ability to upsell every one of their customers, it's about capitalizing on business opportunities not just maximizing profit on one single transaction. Wanna make more than my gardner? Ask if I need anything else; your profit on extra mags, holster, belt, ammmo or a caliber specific bore snake will quickly outweigh the nominal fee you make from the PPT itself.
I didn't mean anything as a attack on anyone. Just stating a fact. I did not read anything and deduce what I have posted. That information came straight from the CA DOJ and is exactly how a PPT can be done at a gun show using consignment firearms when both CA residents are not present at the same time but do have properly verified CA ID. Also, your gardner can up charge for fixing sprinklers or any other thing that they do like spraying for weeds.
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Old 03-02-2007, 4:11 PM
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Mike/mscales5...

This is good information and corrected a lot of misconceptions. Thank you/

And since this is more on the nonpolitical procedural-regulatory side, I actually would trust the info on this from DOJ line staff.
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Old 03-03-2007, 8:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimbercarry View Post
i have never heard of a gun being shipped from dealer to dealer to be a ppt.consighnment is considered a private party. the state will tell if you ship a gun to a dealer it has to be on the list and not to be done as a ppt. they feel that if you do it as a ppt you are skirting the law and would be in violation of the "safe gun list"
The state will tell you if you ship a hand gun from out of state to a FFL it must be on the list to transfer to a non-FFL or sold to a LEO. Any FFL can accept a non-listed hand gun but they are restricted to who can purchase it. As long as the hand gun is in teh state it can be trasfered as a PPT if it coming from a private party and goes to a private party. Go to the CA DOJ web site and follow the link for gun show trasnactions. This is exactly the smae method as shipping a non listed hand gun for one dealer to teh next as handing it to another FFL at a gun show IF the proper ID is verified. This is done the same way as a "Gun Show Transaction" when a consignment hand gun is transfered. Shipping is ONLY restricted when the hand gun is shipped from out of state OR without proper ID for a PPT.
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