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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 06-27-2011, 9:26 AM
BannedinBritain BannedinBritain is offline
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Default 03 FFL + COE No Longer Exempt From 1 in 30 Rule for Modern Handguns???

Recently a customer who is an 03 FFL and COE holder purchased two modern handguns in a month. His second DROS was denied. Through speaking with ATF and DOJ it is apparent that DOJ will now deny multiple modern handgun purchases within a 30 day period even if the purchaser has an 03 FFL and COE. Their justification for this is DOJ has taken ATF's position that an 03 FFL is only valid for the purchase of C&R handguns, and therefore cannot be used for any reason in purchasing modern handguns.

For those of you using these documents to purchase modern handguns be aware, there is a good chance your next transaction, if a modern handgun purchase within 30 days of a prior modern handgun purchase, will be denied by DOJ, and you will have to wait until 30 days expires to re-DROS. And of course, you will be charged another $25.

Ain't California great?
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  #2  
Old 06-27-2011, 9:29 AM
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I was informed of this last week by my FFL - Terrible -
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Old 06-27-2011, 9:33 AM
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Would this be considered underground legislation?
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Old 06-27-2011, 9:37 AM
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Kamala is that you?
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  #5  
Old 06-27-2011, 9:39 AM
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So I can still buy two guns if I buy a new handgun and then a c&r handgun or vice versa. Or would I still have to wait for the second one.
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Old 06-27-2011, 9:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyworm View Post
Would this be considered underground legislation?
Only if "underground regulation" is loosely defined as a rule imposed by a government agency in direct conflict with the written law..

Like, oh... this one:

Quote:
12072(a)
(1) No person, corporation, or firm shall knowingly
supply, deliver, sell, or give possession or control of a firearm to
any person within any of the classes prohibited by Section 12021 or
12021.1.
...
(9)(A) No person shall make an application to purchase more than
one handgun within any 30-day period.
(B) Subparagraph (A) shall not apply to any of the following:
...
(ix) Any person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter
44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States
Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto and who has a
current certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the
Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12071.
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  #7  
Old 06-27-2011, 9:56 AM
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Yikes. So which is it? FUD or underground regulation? Because it is obviously one of the two.
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Old 06-27-2011, 9:57 AM
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I wish I had enough money to worry about the 30 day restriction
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:00 AM
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Wow. Oh please, please, let this be true. Talk about an easy win... If in fact this is the new "position" of the DOJ, then it is such an easy case for an illegal underground regulation. And if people have suffered an actual harm as a result (denied DROS, forced to pay fee twice) then there may be some real damages involved.

C'mon CGF, easy money!
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:07 AM
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You know my COE has really not done me much good. I often wonder why I renew it.
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  #11  
Old 06-27-2011, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrr View Post
Wow. Oh please, please, let this be true. Talk about an easy win... If in fact this is the new "position" of the DOJ, then it is such an easy case for an illegal underground regulation. And if people have suffered an actual harm as a result (denied DROS, forced to pay fee twice) then there may be some real damages involved.

C'mon CGF, easy money!
I was just denied today with all of the requisite 'paperwork' -- posted a report on it in the handgun section.

OP -- is that you Don?
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:34 AM
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ATF is saying that a C&R is only valid for C&R transfers. Fine, we get that.

However, its validity/existence does NOT disappear between C&R transfers: it is a valid piece of paper assigned to its licensee for the licensed time period (3? 5? years).

CA law says that two items are required to do more-than-1-new-handgun xfers in A: a C&R and a COE. Existence of the the unexpired C&R paper along with a COE is sufficient.

(Methinks the ATF may be thinking C&R is being misused for non-C&R guns and that they are being xferred FFL-free, which is something they'd not want.)

It appears CA's new stance and change is an underground regulation requiring notice, commentary, etc.

We CGFers are talking about it at this moment and The Lawyers are On It.
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  #13  
Old 06-27-2011, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
We CGFers are talking about it at this moment and The Lawyers are On It.
Donation incoming. Thank you CGF.
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  #14  
Old 06-27-2011, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
...The Lawyers are On It.
Sic 'em!
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:52 AM
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Please Bill - I've got 5 handguns in the wing at Rob's place -
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  #16  
Old 06-27-2011, 11:05 AM
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If there was no limit law I would own 2 guns. With the limit I go to the gun store every month. BECAUSE of this RESTRICTION they made I now own more guns than I ever imagined. This law in my case is doing exactly what they did not want me to do. If anyone bought 5 guns a day flags should go up anyway!
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Old 06-27-2011, 11:22 AM
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Multiple handgun purchases are already reported.
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  #18  
Old 06-27-2011, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leelaw View Post
Only if "underground regulation" is loosely defined as a rule imposed by a government agency in direct conflict with the written law..

Like, oh... this one:
I am sure the mantra from the honyaks at DOJ would be..that's our current interpretation . Tough apples...deal with it.
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Old 06-27-2011, 11:35 AM
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What's next, the ATF is going to say a C&R doesn't count as proof of residence for buying a modern handgun?
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Old 06-27-2011, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFortie View Post
I was just denied today with all of the requisite 'paperwork' -- posted a report on it in the handgun section.

OP -- is that you Don?
No...not Don...but I know him

I wanted to get the info out on here to inform those who were thinking of using their credentials for this type of purchase and let them know they would be denied.

Last edited by BannedinBritain; 06-27-2011 at 11:39 AM..
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  #21  
Old 06-27-2011, 11:45 AM
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Weird. I just picked up a new handgun this weekend from my FFL after the 10-day wait. I used my FFL03 and COE to be exempt from the 30-day requirement when I started the DROS, and saw the FFL select the exemption reason from the drop-down list. As it's a new DOJ stance, maybe I slipped through the cracks?
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Old 06-27-2011, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redline View Post
Weird. I just picked up a new handgun this weekend from my FFL after the 10-day wait. I used my FFL03 and COE to be exempt from the 30-day requirement when I started the DROS, and saw the FFL select the exemption reason from the drop-down list. As it's a new DOJ stance, maybe I slipped through the cracks?
You may have just gotten in before enforcement started. One of the problems with this implementation though is when we process these DROSes, we select the 30 day multiple purchase exemption, and write "03 FFL / COE" in the comments. If we don't write that in the comments, it will still be processed as there are a number of exemptions to the law...and we aren't "commanded" to write anything in the comments, just to keep proper documentation of the exemption.

So you may find people still getting multiple handguns within 30 days with an 03 and COE as DOJ wouldn't be able to differentiate the specific exemption used.
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Old 06-27-2011, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BannedinBritain View Post
No...not Don...but I know him

I wanted to get the info out on here to inform those who were thinking of using their credentials for this type of purchase and let them know they would be denied.
Don called me this morning regarding my denial using the C.O.E. and my FFL03 and we discussed it for awhile, which is why I thought he might have posted the info...
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Old 06-27-2011, 12:38 PM
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So, hypothetically speaking, since FFLs aren't 'commanded' to enter something in the comments section, if that step was accidentally left out, all else being equal, the 03 FFL and COE for 1 in 30 exemption may still be processed and approved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BannedinBritain View Post
You may have just gotten in before enforcement started. One of the problems with this implementation though is when we process these DROSes, we select the 30 day multiple purchase exemption, and write "03 FFL / COE" in the comments. If we don't write that in the comments, it will still be processed as there are a number of exemptions to the law...and we aren't "commanded" to write anything in the comments, just to keep proper documentation of the exemption.

So you may find people still getting multiple handguns within 30 days with an 03 and COE as DOJ wouldn't be able to differentiate the specific exemption used.
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Old 06-27-2011, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redline View Post
So, hypothetically speaking, since FFLs aren't 'commanded' to enter something in the comments section, if that step was accidentally left out, all else being equal, the 03 FFL and COE for 1 in 30 exemption may still be processed and approved?
I'm not going to go so far as to say yes...it could happen that way. But if the FFL is aware of the change...they (nor I for that matter) will not just start leaving off the comments to process the transaction. Also, there will probably be a bulletin forthcoming from DOJ (unless they just want to see if they can get everyone to stop trying to do these transactions just by denying them when they can).
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Old 06-27-2011, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyworm View Post
Would this be considered underground legislation?
underground regulation....
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Old 06-27-2011, 5:01 PM
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Not good
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Old 06-27-2011, 5:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiese View Post
We CGFers are talking about it at this moment and The Lawyers are On It.

HAMMER TIME!

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Old 06-27-2011, 5:51 PM
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Holy. Crap. This is bonkers insane. My COE is worthless now! Not that I get any use out of it, but there are the rare occasions when it's helped me with multiple guns.

Last edited by aermotor; 06-27-2011 at 5:55 PM..
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Old 06-27-2011, 6:07 PM
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FFLs: The law here is clear. If there is a non-fraudulent way ti get DROS software to process the C&R + COE exemption, do it that way. If there is a problem, CGF stands ready to defend the legal transaction.

This will be checked in on and if nit fixed, then checked.

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Old 06-27-2011, 6:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
FFLs: The law here is clear. If there is a non-fraudulent way ti get DROS software to process the C&R + COE exemption, do it that way. If there is a problem, CGF stands ready to defend the legal transaction.

This will be checked in on and if nit fixed, then checked.

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That's good to know, I have 6 items pending this month alone.
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Old 06-27-2011, 6:13 PM
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Meanwhile, in a relatively short time frame the whole law entirely will go down in flames as unconstitutional as it doesn't meet strict scrutiny b/c the need isn't compelling due to underinclusiveness and inconclusive impact. (Per the video games decision issued today by SCOTUS.)
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Old 06-27-2011, 8:32 PM
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Wow - I was about to exercise a brief period of self-restraint but maybe...I should just go ahead and jam another one in the pipeline. Surely Budsgunshop has something I my son needs...

FWIW I DROS'ed my Nth handgun in a 30-day period 12 days ago (and a SSE no less) and did not have a problem.

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Old 06-27-2011, 8:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
FWIW I DROS'ed my Nth handgun in a 30-day period 12 days ago (and a SSE no less) and did not have a problem.

--Neill
And you have a C&R and COE?
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Old 06-27-2011, 8:58 PM
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And you have a C&R and COE?
Yes I do...

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Old 06-27-2011, 10:48 PM
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This is bulls**t, that damn computer program has got to go. It IS ILLEGALLY restricting interstate commerce, and it is illegally restricting LEGAL transactions.
Here's the kicker, the DROS system is maintained by a out of state company. Those idiots really hate us, I mean all of us......well unless your an illegal welfare case who needs a nanny.
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:56 PM
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We should tell that state there are tax money there -

Quote:
Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
This is bulls**t, that damn computer program has got to go. It IS ILLEGALLY restricting interstate commerce, and it is illegally restricting LEGAL transactions.
Here's the kicker, the DROS system is maintained by a out of state company. Those idiots really hate us, I mean all of us......well unless your an illegal welfare case who needs a nanny.
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  #38  
Old 06-27-2011, 11:10 PM
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There goes the ONLY reason I was going for a COE!
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Old 06-27-2011, 11:10 PM
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Is there an exemption for brightly colored firearms?
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  #40  
Old 06-27-2011, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfbadger View Post
There goes the ONLY reason I was going for a COE!
Ditto. Just got my 03 with COE close on it's heels. I guess I will standfast until CGF straightens out the DOJ...
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