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  #1  
Old 06-26-2011, 9:30 PM
rusted180 rusted180 is offline
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Default copper fouling on my barrel?need some help : (

hello gunlovers!

i apologize if this topic has already been discussed but i need some help fast cuz im worried .

i just got my RC k98 and the rifling and crown is superb so i assume after cleaning it should shoot decent groups at 200 yards. however i just came across a problem that is not going away. yesterday i cleaned the barrel (with no bore guide) for the first time using hoppes 9 solvent and all this black gunk started coming out. i first inserted soaked patches through and pushed foward until the brush came out of the barrel, and pulled back until it was out of the tongue. i then used a wet brass brush to scrub. then runned a wet patch again. i repeated this process and left the hoppes 9 residue inside the barrel over night.

today, 3 hours ago, i ran another wet patch of hoppes 9, and whalla! a very bright green patch comes out! it looks like copper fouling from what i read on some threads.

i then ran a wet patch of hobbes copper solvent about 7 times moving foward and unscrewing the patch at the end of the barrel. i left the barrel soaked in copper solvent for 30 minutes and then brushed it with nylon soaked in copper solvent back and forth on the barrel maybe 30 times. i repeated this cycle for almost 2 hours. after a while i noticed the wet patches were turning almost blue green in color and a little lighter on the intensity of the color. however the color would not go away. i gave up...

i then wet a brass brush with hoppes 9 and started brushing foward and back to at least get the lead out since the copper blue/green color wasnt going away. next, with a patch soaked in hoppes 9 i ran it through the barrel, and the color was now dark grey with a ring of blue/green stain surrounding it. i did these steps repeatly for only a few passes until......

my wife started getting angry because of the solvent smell in our apartment, i had to stop, she was complaing about her throat feeling scratchy, so i did only what i felt was best at the moment. stop cleaning

i ran a dry patch through several times and then finally a patch with oil..... Do you guys think if i leave it as is for the next 48 hours will slowly become worse? my next step was to take it to a gunsmith to clean the copper fouling electrically or whatever method they feel best.

i just hope once i get the barrel cleaned out by the gunsmith that i wont see any green again. i do plan on immediately cleaning my rifle after every use at the range, so would there be a possiblity that i will see copper fouling again even i stricly clean asap after use???

my only solution i could think of now is... taking it to a gunsmith to clean and then cleaning it immediately after each use. can you guys help me..... im just worried. thanks in advance! you guys have been great with helping me in the past.
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  #2  
Old 06-26-2011, 9:36 PM
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Get a can of Wipe Out. Spay it in your barrel, leave overnight and patch out. Repeat as necessary.
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Old 06-27-2011, 5:34 AM
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+1 That's the stuff. We've used it exclusively for three years now. Nothing touches it.
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Old 06-27-2011, 5:50 AM
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You will always get blue-green patches if you are using copper solvent and a brass or bronze bristle bore brush. That's because of the copper in the brush. You should use a nylon bristle brush with copper solvent. Also, be careful leaving copper solvent in the bore too long as it might etch the bore.
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  #5  
Old 06-27-2011, 6:40 AM
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I use Montana Extreme Copper Killer on aged milsurps, and it works well. However, I would NOT recommend using it in your apartment--fumes are really powerful. And I'd exercise extreme care in handling it, especially if you are alone. Suspect that if you spilled a can in your lap, it might very well make you pass out.

(Kinda funny in a chemical that used to be used for "smelling salts" to bring people out of faints!).
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mssr. Eleganté View Post
You will always get blue-green patches if you are using copper solvent and a brass or bronze bristle bore brush. That's because of the copper in the brush. You should use a nylon bristle brush with copper solvent. Also, be careful leaving copper solvent in the bore too long as it might etch the bore.
wow......this makes me wonder if my barrel even had copper fouling in the first place. would it be because i was scrubbing it with a copper brush when i was trying to clean the powder before i moved onto the copper?
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Old 06-27-2011, 11:28 AM
rusted180 rusted180 is offline
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well, since this is a 70 yr old gun, maybe it can be copper fouling and im just pealing away at the layer of copper after scraping the first layer of gunk off.

initially i only saw black/grey patches coming out using hoppes 9 but 24 hours later, i started seeing green patches using the same solvent. it wasnt until i started using copper solvent when the color started slowly turning blue/green as i made passes with the rod.

i hope i didnt wear away at the bore too much. this morning i checked the barrel, and i saw a lot of surface scratches around the barrel. the pattern looked like the brass brush i was using. i hope these scratches are just the copper markings left by the brush like crayon on a sidewalk and not a layer of steel worn away.... argh... can anyone advise me?

thanks for the help guys, i really appreciate it! this really means a lot to me. this is my first antique rifle so i wanna clean it right before i take it out on it's first date.
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Old 06-27-2011, 4:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rusted180 View Post
well, since this is a 70 yr old gun, maybe it can be copper fouling and im just pealing away at the layer of copper after scraping the first layer of gunk off.

initially i only saw black/grey patches coming out using hoppes 9 but 24 hours later, i started seeing green patches using the same solvent. it wasnt until i started using copper solvent when the color started slowly turning blue/green as i made passes with the rod.

i hope i didnt wear away at the bore too much. this morning i checked the barrel, and i saw a lot of surface scratches around the barrel. the pattern looked like the brass brush i was using. i hope these scratches are just the copper markings left by the brush like crayon on a sidewalk and not a layer of steel worn away.... argh... can anyone advise me?

thanks for the help guys, i really appreciate it! this really means a lot to me. this is my first antique rifle so i wanna clean it right before i take it out on it's first date.


You need to get a Dewey cleaning rod, the 44" .30 cal rod.

Dewey also sells the aluminum jag and extension so that it would not react to the Hoppes 9 or whatever carbon/copper solvent you use.

Another item - these rifles were fed with corrosive ammo. Even though the bore is shiney there are still micro-pits in the bore as a result of that ammo use.

The point is that you can still use Sweets 762 or KG12 to de-copper the bore but you will just uncover the micro-pits already present in the bore. So, the patch will will come out grey/black along with the bluish-green.

Clean it, shoot it, and enjoy it for what it is . . .

BTW, Kroil does a good job on carbon as well as Gunk Engine Flush. I actually mix the two along with ATF as my primary carbon solvent!
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Old 06-27-2011, 4:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rusted180 View Post
i hope i didnt wear away at the bore too much. this morning i checked the barrel, and i saw a lot of surface scratches around the barrel. the pattern looked like the brass brush i was using. i hope these scratches are just the copper markings left by the brush like crayon on a sidewalk and not a layer of steel worn away.... argh... can anyone advise me?
Unless you are using Tungsten or Titanium bore brushes you are not going to cause any damage to it and the "scratches" are not something to worry about. In fact you shooting it is causing more damgae that your brass brushes, so to show what a great guy I am you can send me the rifle and I will promise not to shoot it and will just keep it oiled in my safe

Some people forget that everytime you shoot a gun you have a small controlled detonation going off inside that chamber, which is then driving a metal projectile into the lands and grooves of the rifling and down the barrel at somewhere between 1000-3500 feet per second depending on the type of gun you are shooting. But whatever you do dont drop your rifle on the Carpet, this is guaranteed to destroy your gun
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Last edited by Noonanda; 06-27-2011 at 4:26 PM..
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  #10  
Old 06-27-2011, 5:52 PM
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thanks for all the info! you know how it is....with all the conflicting reports of ppl saying brass will scratch at the bore with extensive cleaning and some saying it wont......i wasnt sure.... so far, those who replied tell me not to worry, so i guess i feel better..

i know this is an rc so ivan mickey moused everything together, so i dont expect excellent groupings, but i was just afraid that my long cleaning job ruined the bore. i just want decent groupings at 200 yards since that is the distance i like to shoot my rifles at.

as for the copper issue, i gotta take it to a gunsmith to clean all the fouling or follow some advice i got from you guys to tackle this issue. thank you all! i love this site! anymore comments would be appreciated.

-andrew
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Old 06-27-2011, 6:04 PM
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[QUOTE=Noonanda;6669526]so to show what a great guy I am you can send me the rifle and I will promise not to shoot it and will just keep it oiled in my safe

hahaha! sure just pm me your address and ill ship it off to ya! thanks for the advice man.
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Old 06-27-2011, 6:05 PM
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Brother, it sounds like you're worrying too much about cleaning the damn thing. Once I learned not to fret too much over cleaning, I found things to be more enjoyable.

And once I realized that no one shoots precision groups with milsurps (especially using milsurp ball ammo), I determined that there's no point in giving a **** about "fine tuning" the cleaning. After shooting these guns, my only real concern is to neutralize those pesky potassium ionic compounds that cause corrosion and to ensure that the gun is nice and old and no rust will appear.


And we all have our opinions about gun cleaning schedules, but IMO after seeing the threads about the subject around here, I do think the majority of Calgunners over-clean their stuff too much. It's their stuff and they can do as they please, but I think over doing it is a waste of time.
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Old 06-27-2011, 6:09 PM
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btw i wasnt trying to be an *****hole, i really do appreciate your words of wisdom noonanda! thanks
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Old 06-27-2011, 7:10 PM
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OTIS cleaning kit, a few nylon brushes, Butches bore shine. Pull patches until they stop turning blue.. Sleep well at night.

Eric
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Old 06-27-2011, 8:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rusted180 View Post
btw i wasnt trying to be an *****hole, i really do appreciate your words of wisdom noonanda! thanks
no problem I understood.
if you shoot corrosive clean it good, but otherwise just a few patches with some gun oil of your choice usually will do the job. You will most likely never get all the copper out, and it might actually shoot like crap if you get all the copper out until you get the rifle fouled back up.
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Old 06-27-2011, 9:54 PM
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Quote:
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it might actually shoot like crap if you get all the copper out until you get the rifle fouled back up.
This.
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Old 06-28-2011, 7:38 AM
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[QUOTE=rojocorsa;6670124]And once I realized that no one shoots precision groups with milsurps (especially using milsurp ball ammo), I determined that there's no point in giving a **** about "fine tuning" the cleaning.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Welll .... not quite. Check the Camp Perry results for the past four years and you'll find that the k31 stands right alongside the big boys for precision shooting. We developed a 1,000 yard Diopter because the k31 will factually shoot accurately at that distance.

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Old 06-28-2011, 9:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojocorsa View Post
And once I realized that no one shoots precision groups with milsurps (especially using milsurp ball ammo), I determined that there's no point in giving a **** about "fine tuning" the cleaning. After shooting these guns, my only real concern is to neutralize those pesky potassium ionic compounds that cause corrosion and to ensure that the gun is nice and old and no rust will appear.
My M-28/76's with Handloads will shoot precision groups but I understand what you are talking about.
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Old 06-28-2011, 11:05 AM
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Sweets 7.62 copper remover.
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Old 06-28-2011, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojocorsa View Post
And once I realized that no one shoots precision groups with milsurps (especially using milsurp ball ammo)
Not with Big 5 Mosins...

The tuned Swedes and K31's can shoot. I have seen it personally.
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Old 06-28-2011, 11:54 AM
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Read this, may help
http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/...mble/index.asp
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Old 06-28-2011, 12:02 PM
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OK, you guys are right.

I'll admit that when I think of milsurp, I think of stuff that's BTDT. ie K98s, Soviet Mosins, Enfields, M-1s, Arisakas, etc. etc. You know, the mainstream stuff from the key players. Ditto for standard military ball ammo. I expect it to be good enough, but that's it.

I don't usually think of K-31s or Swedes, but I have heard of what they can do.


*I feel like I'm missing out since I've never shot a K-31, though.
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Old 06-28-2011, 12:15 PM
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Some good advise so far. Wipe out is great stuff! Montana Extreme is pretty good. Barrett's new bore claener is also really good for removing copper. Sweets is OK for a day to day cleaner but leaves something to be desired when dealling with heavy copper fouling. Personally, I use Wipe out and Montana Extreme when I don't want to break out the best stuff. What I use for heavy copper fouling in my 50s is a mix of aqueous ammonia and Ivory dish soap in about a 9 to 1 mix. This mix will cut all copper fast but, it is highly toxic and care should be used when using or even just being around it.
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