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  #1  
Old 11-18-2016, 5:11 PM
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Default Steering my friend towards Glock ... but being thwarted by 1911.

I took my coworker to the range today, met up with her husband there too. So they have decided that they would like to purchase a handgun for home defense and "just in case".

Their friend recently bought a Glock 17. She had mentioned it in the years past, but I think that video of the Chinese lady vs Home Invaders and that rap video telling "gangstas" to go rob Asian homes really kicked it into high gear... ditto with her friends on "WeChat" which is basically Chinese facebook.

But I digress. She asked what I recommended for a home defense gun and I said Glock 17 or Glock19. OK, let's try it out.

So I brought along my Gen4 Glock 17 (and brass was flying into her forehead during the range session!) a Glock 23 just to give them a size comparison (I don't have a GLock 19), a CZ-75 SAO, and for fun my Springfield TRP, which she had shot before and liked.

So they both shot fairly well for mostly newbies, I was surprised and she actually listened to some tips I gave her, which made me happy and made her shots closer to target (just tips on grip and which part of the finger, etc, etc).

And to end off the session, I let her shoot my TRP with my handloads and, though I'm a fan of many guns, I must say that in my collection, this gun is easily the easiest to shoot well and is dead-nuts accurate. I mean it's insane. And she is (at 7-ish yards) just nailing the target, holes touching holes on the bullseye... overall a group smaller than a baseball... not bad for a newbie!

So ... hey, why don't I buy one of those? Well, OK ... First of all, I had to buy expensive mags to run it right (ETMs with upgraded springs), I'm using handloads tuned to that gun, and 1911s can be pricey, this one is 3 times the cost of a Glock 17. Plus you must be ready to keep it cleaned, lubed and swap springs when needed. The Glock 17 needs maintenance too, but not to that level.

So next time we go, I'm taking my 9mm 1911 and, if I can get the sights sorted out, my RIA 1911 too, just to see if it's the platform or that particular gun.

But ... you know, it's really hard to sell someone on a Glock, which I think is ideal for their needs, when you bring along a TRP!

They liked the feel of the Glock23, but of course the .40 was not as pleasant as the 9mm. So most likely, they will lean towards a 19 or 17. She had "read somewhere" that the Glock 19 is not quite as reliable as the 17. I suggested maybe that had to do with the magazine/follower/10 rounds issue, but also said she shouldn't worry too much about it.

So, anyway, I gave her the Calguns answer. Get the Glock 17/19 now so you have a reliable handgun to start practicing with, etc... then also get yourself a 1911 later!
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  #2  
Old 11-18-2016, 5:28 PM
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Of course the heavier all steel gun prevailed in accuracy.

If she's comfortable with it, safe, and can maintain it, I say go for it.
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Old 11-18-2016, 7:11 PM
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If they like the 1911 platform- SA 1911 9mm is a great gun. Mine is reliable /with Wilson Combat magazines/, good for HD. No rail for a light may be a deal breaker.
Have them buy AR first, then Glock, then 1911...
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Old 11-18-2016, 8:07 PM
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Can't really go wrong with a TRP. Ultimately it's user preference
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Old 11-18-2016, 8:08 PM
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I love my 1911, it is by far one of my most accurate guns. I remember shooting my first 1911 after shooting lots of other guns, it just clicked. Like the first time I had chicken wings & pizza, I knew I would be eating that as much as possible for the rest of my life.

Some people are 1911 fans, some Glock, some HK, CZ, etc...

Maybe another reliable striker fire should be mixed in the bunch next time with better ergos. M&P or SA XD, even a VP9, PPQ. Glocks are pretty off putting to shoot, perhaps they can grow in to the Glock like I did.

Trust me, I am not against a Glock, I personally I don't like shooting them but in a pinch I know they will perform. That being said The most reliable gun ts the gun you can operate the best in a moment's notice and hit the target easiest.... so maybe a 1911 is her gun.
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  #6  
Old 11-18-2016, 8:11 PM
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Nothing's wrong with a 1911. My teenagers can shoot fist size groups with my stock 1911 .45 all day long with $17 CheckMate magazines.
If your friends can handle it, why not?
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  #7  
Old 11-18-2016, 8:27 PM
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Another point which you didn't mention in your post but is relevant to the new buyer is ammo cost. Not only is the glock the cheaper gun by far but factory 9mm is like half the cost of .45 acp. Maybe not quite half, but you get the jist. A new shooter expecially needs to train or else a firearm is just an expensive paperweight. Even good shooters miss when called upon in a stressful situation.

Also an external safety to a non-shooter is just another step to learn and potentially fukk up when Mr. Badguy is knocking at 3 AM.

P.S., I enjoy shooting my 1911s exponentially more than my glocks, but I don't know that I would recommend a 1911 as an only gun for self defense.
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Old 11-18-2016, 8:51 PM
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1911s are a good weapon. However, they are an experts weapon (more maintenance, manual safety, less ammo capacity, more prone to malfunctions, etc). For that reason I would strongly discourage a new person purchasing a 1911 for home defense. Same thing with snub nosed revolvers.
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  #9  
Old 11-18-2016, 11:22 PM
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Perhaps field strip the 1911 and the Glock with them so they can see the difference in maintenance. While cleaning either is no big deal for most, seeing the Glock broken down into 4 parts vs technically 10 parts on the 1911 may be an important factor to them. The point i would try to make with them is maintaining it is as important as shooting it.
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Old 11-18-2016, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheepdog1968 View Post
1911s are a good weapon. However, they are an experts weapon (more maintenance, manual safety, less ammo capacity, more prone to malfunctions, etc). For that reason I would strongly discourage a new person purchasing a 1911 for home defense. Same thing with snub nosed revolvers.
Yes, this ^^^

A good starter gun is the Glock 17 - to build up their confidence and gun maintenance skills
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  #11  
Old 11-18-2016, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trackcage View Post
Another point which you didn't mention in your post but is relevant to the new buyer is ammo cost. Not only is the glock the cheaper gun by far but factory 9mm is like half the cost of .45 acp. Maybe not quite half, but you get the jist. A new shooter expecially needs to train or else a firearm is just an expensive paperweight. Even good shooters miss when called upon in a stressful situation.

Also an external safety to a non-shooter is just another step to learn and potentially fukk up when Mr. Badguy is knocking at 3 AM.

P.S., I enjoy shooting my 1911s exponentially more than my glocks, but I don't know that I would recommend a 1911 as an only gun for self defense.

+1
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  #12  
Old 11-19-2016, 2:26 AM
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Why would you want to buy a 1911? You can use that money to get more Glocks!!!! And probably some ammo to go along with it.
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  #13  
Old 11-19-2016, 3:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lead Waster View Post
First of all, I had to buy expensive mags to run it right (ETMs with upgraded springs), I'm using handloads tuned to that gun, and 1911s can be pricey, this one is 3 times the cost of a Glock 17. Plus you must be ready to keep it cleaned, lubed and swap springs when needed. The Glock 17 needs maintenance too, but not to that level.
Thwarted? it looks like you are making every attempt to keep her away from it because you want her to buy a glock. I dont know about your TRPs but mine will eat anything from just about any mag (with the exception of those $9 dollar GI mags). I say if she shot the TRP with the front strap checkering then let her buy one , shes already more man than half of CG here who cries about the checkering. Make sure she buys a glock too tho just in case
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  #14  
Old 11-19-2016, 4:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lead Waster View Post
OK ... First of all, I had to buy expensive mags to run it right (ETMs with upgraded springs),

Wait, What?? NONE of my TRP's required this....in fact, this is something I've not heard of....more detail please....Why you HAD to buy etm's?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lead Waster View Post
Plus you must be ready to keep it cleaned, lubed and swap springs when needed. The Glock 17 needs maintenance too, but not to that level.
A mid life new shooter....not an issue. RARELY does someone enter into the shooting world and ever shoot their gun that much. You can ASSume that likely they will never put 1000 rounds down range on it. That being the case. Maint is no different a level than the glock. Shoot it and clean it every couple of trips. Done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lead Waster View Post
So, anyway, I gave her the Calguns answer. Get the Glock 17/19 now so you have a reliable handgun to start practicing with, etc... then also get yourself a 1911 later!
Yeah, you already knew the answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIKSD View Post
If they like the 1911 platform- SA 1911 9mm is a great gun. Mine is reliable /with Wilson Combat magazines/, good for HD. No rail for a light may be a deal breaker.
Have them buy AR first, then Glock, then 1911...
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trackcage View Post
I enjoy shooting my 1911s exponentially more than my glocks, but I don't know that I would recommend a 1911 as an only gun for self defense.
I agree with this. For a first gun, and being their HD gun, I'd go with a poly gun. Glock or Sig. For steel, CZ or revolver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheepdog1968 View Post
1911s are a good weapon. However, they are an experts weapon (more maintenance, manual safety, less ammo capacity, more prone to malfunctions, etc). For that reason I would strongly discourage a new person purchasing a 1911 for home defense. Same thing with snub nosed revolvers.
Huh? I think I'm misreading your intent. Surely you're not saying a revolver is more maint, more prone etc. I agree with everything else but that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmas View Post
A good starter gun is the Glock 17 - to build up their confidence and gun maintenance skills
Agreed!
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  #15  
Old 11-19-2016, 8:16 AM
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I think most people know I like 1911s, I collect them, write about them, and one day hope to have one thousand nine hundred and eleven versions of them.

that being said, I think you did the right thing in steering them towards a modern "plastic" pistol. when they ask why a glock/M&P/HK/etc over a 1911, just use the car analogy. The 1911 is more like a Ferrari -- rich heritage, nice to look at, fun to drive. But if your life depended on it could you guarantee a ferrari to start every time? The plastic pistols are like the Honda Accord -- boring but utterly versatile and reliable.

If that analogy doesn't work then go into the following facts:
* With most plastic pistols you can have 11 shots -- a 10+1 configuration. Most 1911s will only have 8 shots (.45) or 10 shots (9mm), unless you use an extended mag which as newbie shooters they may think is weird.

* Ask them about the safety. The 1911 has a manual safety -- are they going to remember to disengage it during an emergency? Most plastic pistols have an "automatic" safety.

I think the consensus here is to get a plastic pistol for defense and a 1911 as a range toy. (honda civic as your daily driver, ferrari for weekend fun)....
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  #16  
Old 11-19-2016, 9:05 AM
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The poster above hit the nail on the head!
When I was helping a female friend choose her Defensive And recreational shooter,
I quickly realized a couple things when it came to the 1911.

No matter which 1911 she tried, she could not consistently operate the heavy slide !! She just simply did not have the Hand strength!

The next issue that presented itself was when I ran her through drills she routinely
had issues with : Forgetting to disengage the Manual safety, inability to release the Slide Lock and forgetting to keep pressure on the Beavertail safety.
I became concerned that if she had to use that Gun in an emergency she would
Most likely Fail!

I then ran her through all the same drills using a Glock 19 with completely different results, she had no issues and completed the drills like a champ.

I think that the OP is correct in steering this Female Newbi to the Simple, Easy to Use Glock 👍🏾
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Old 11-19-2016, 9:35 AM
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I think we always say take the noobs to a range where they can rent or borrow several guns and then get the one they prefer. You did your part so let them get what they want to get.....maybe consider selling them your well sorted TRP since you can get another and make it run too. In my experience that involves mostly shooting them enough to break them in and be confident in them....which should be done for any HD or carry gun!!
I don't pretend to know anything close to what Beetle knows about 1911s but I have a "few" and would and do trust them as HD weapons. I have railed 1911s in my dwellings with lights on them. I am very familiar with them and the platform so no problem plus I may or may not have a "few" other pistols nearby as well.
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Old 11-19-2016, 11:00 AM
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Friends don't steer friends towards Glock.
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Old 11-19-2016, 11:08 AM
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She should also try out the CZ SP-01.
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Old 11-19-2016, 11:11 AM
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I wouldn't suggest a 1911 for a first gun. Most Calgunners don't know how to adjust an extractor, or even determine why their gun is malfunctioning and want to call the company when something goes wrong.

I don't believe in the mantra "have them go to a range where they can rent pistols and see which one they like". They have no experience to make that determination. Look at how many Calgunners talk about how a pistol "feels good in their hand", as if that matters.

It would be nonsensical to tell me to go to a golf shop and try various clubs to see how they feel; I don't know how they're supposed to feel, or how that feel would translate to performance. I don't know anything about golf clubs.

Glocks are just about bomb proof and make perfect first or last pistols.
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Old 11-19-2016, 11:15 AM
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  #22  
Old 11-19-2016, 11:32 AM
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If they want a 1911 because it's so much easier to shoot I say BRAVO! I've had folks try my 1911s and they are sold. I usually tell them what type of malfunctions to look for and have given their pistols a quick check. Glocks have had their share of problems too. My Colt 1991A1 commander has been reliable. Everyone wants to use 8 or 10 round mags for their 1911s, but I prefer the standard 7 round mags for my standby 1911s.
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Old 11-19-2016, 11:40 AM
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Don't discount a revolver for new gun owners. It's easy to use and shoots well.
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Old 11-19-2016, 11:41 AM
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I don't see a problem with a 1911. Everyone is different and the OPs friend shot the guns so only she knows what works for her. The OP summarized all the pros and cons of each gun and at that point it's up to her.

I know people are trying to help but to suggest newbies can't handle 1911s sounds almost condescending. New shooters have used 1911s long before Glocks were created. Using handguns are not rocket science. Just be respectful of the weapon and most people will do fine.
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Old 11-19-2016, 12:08 PM
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It's not being thwarted, she just isn't attracted to the poly "blah" of the glock / shield / xd etc. I have some Tupperware in my collection but if asked which guns I prefer to own and shoot my answer is always my 1911's
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Old 11-19-2016, 1:46 PM
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I absolutely Love the 1911. The looks, performance, and value of the 1911 can't be beat in my opinion. At the same time I always recommend a glock for the first time/lone purchase buyer. Simple, cheap, and reliable.
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Old 11-19-2016, 2:02 PM
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I'd recommend a S&W Model 10 no safety no NDs and no clearing drills to practice.
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Old 11-19-2016, 2:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPimping View Post
Why would you want to buy a 1911? You can use that money to get more Glocks!!!! And probably some ammo to go along with it.
Because they are better in every flippin' way.
My wife shoots the bullseye out of targets with my Sig 1911.
The glock gets lonely at times.
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Old 11-19-2016, 2:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopetonBrown View Post
It would be nonsensical to tell me to go to a golf shop and try various clubs to see how they feel; I don't know how they're supposed to feel, or how that feel would translate to performance. I don't know anything about golf clubs.
I don't play too much golf, but most of grips on the clubs I've handled look and feel the same, though I'm sure there are some that differ. There is far too greater variation with handguns. Consider grip angles, polymer vs rubber vs g10, rough texture vs mild, beaver tail vs no beaver tail, finger grooves vs flat, grip safety vs no grip safety, slim frame vs standard frame width, short grips that may require a pinky extension on the magazine vs standard length. Not to mention variations in triggers with pull, feel, travel, reset, etc. Then there's recoil/muzzle flip.

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Glocks are just about bomb proof and make perfect first or last pistols.
This I agree with.
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Old 11-19-2016, 2:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Joseph View Post
I'd recommend a S&W Model 10 no safety no NDs and no clearing drills to practice.
I'm with you on that!

Sadly most new shooters don't see revolvers as capable of thwarting a home invasion. They want brass flinging and quick reloads. Had a young shooter at the range call my GP100 and 686+, "One of those old guns that don't take a clip".

I did a quick shot of 6 rounds into my 15 yard target and all rounds hit the 10 ring and he still thinks his polygun is still the shiets. People want to look cool first I guess.

For me revolvers are the coolest.
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Old 11-19-2016, 2:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTROKS View Post
I'm with you on that!

Sadly most new shooters don't see revolvers as capable of thwarting a home invasion. They want brass flinging and quick reloads. Had a young shooter at the range call my GP100 and 686+, "One of those old guns that don't take a clip".

I did a quick shot of 6 rounds into my 15 yard target and all rounds hit the 10 ring and he still thinks his polygun is still the shiets. People want to look cool first I guess.

For me revolvers are the coolest.
Revolvers by far, are the hardest to be accurate with.
And that is not opinion.
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Old 11-19-2016, 2:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nedro View Post
Revolvers by far, are the hardest to be accurate with.
And that is not opinion.
That's weird because I shoot more accurately with a revolver in a fast string DA. Maybe it's just me for I learned to shoot revolvers before 1911s or any semiauto.
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Old 11-19-2016, 3:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nedro View Post
Revolvers by far, are the hardest easiest to be accurate with.
And that is not opinion.
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Old 11-19-2016, 3:37 PM
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My first gun was a Glock, added a few more as the years went on. I'm on my 1911 kick now, they really are addicting. I wish I started years ago.
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Old 11-19-2016, 4:41 PM
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Revolvers are easy to shoot and just as important, easy to operate. They don't have a hidden round in the chamber and so on. Dead simple, and as deadly as they need to be.

Yeah, I use a Glock 19, but I'm not the person who's going to the range 2x a year either.
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Old 11-19-2016, 6:36 PM
Che762x39 Che762x39 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lead Waster View Post
I took my coworker to the range today, met up with her husband there too. So they have decided that they would like to purchase a handgun for home defense and "just in case" ...
People are sometimes hard to size up. Usually I recommend a Glock 17 or 19. But some people, especially if HD is a priority, would be better served with a Beretta 92FS.

Most people do not need the 1911 platform. Somebody new to it will be confused with C1, C2 or C3. Also a 1911 is my EDC. When I get home it goes in the sock drawer C&L. I do not understand why noobs think they have to lower the hammer or unload it.
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Old 11-19-2016, 7:16 PM
Che762x39 Che762x39 is offline
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Revolvers are easy to shoot and just as important, easy to operate. They don't have a hidden round in the chamber and so on. Dead simple, and as deadly as they need to be.

Yeah, I use a Glock 19, but I'm not the person who's going to the range 2x a year either.
Spot on. Very good point indeed.
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  #38  
Old 11-19-2016, 9:58 PM
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bsim bsim is offline
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All these "start with a Glock"...is that because training wheels?

Most drivers start out with an econobox. Then if they are lucky enough, they can get that Ferrari. If you can afford a Ferrari on day one, why not?

If the 1911 ergos work, and the G guns don't, why force it?
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Old 11-19-2016, 10:06 PM
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ElDub1950 ElDub1950 is online now
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Originally Posted by Sheepdog1968 View Post
1911s are a good weapon. However, they are an experts weapon (more maintenance, manual safety, less ammo capacity, more prone to malfunctions, etc). For that reason I would strongly discourage a new person purchasing a 1911 for home defense. Same thing with snub nosed revolvers.
I'll have to agree with this also.

A new owner may not have the skill/experience to maintain a 1911 in a condition suitable for HD/SD.
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  #40  
Old 11-20-2016, 6:45 AM
Memnon Memnon is offline
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Both are accurate for me. Easier to have holes touching each other the bigger the caliber.

Show them a takedown and that should settle it pronto.
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