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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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Lane v. Holder: Out of state handgun purchasing
Today, Alan Gura filed a motion for preliminary injunction to find the federal, state, and DC restrictions on purchasing a handgun out of state unconstitutional.
The simple argument is that, since long gun deliveries out of state are already legal, barring out of state handgun purchases where all the rest of the legal requirements (brady check, registration in D.C.) are completed has no rational basis, much less a compelling government interest, to bar non residents from buying handguns. This is especially true while the only FFL in D.C. is currently out of business. -Gene // Case docket at http://ia700608.us.archive.org/34/it...97.docket.html //
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Gene Hoffman Chairman, California Gun Rights Foundation DONATE NOW to support the rights of California gun owners. Follow @cgfgunrights on Twitter. Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization. I read PMs. But, if you need a response, include an email address or email me directly! "The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights." -Anon
Last edited by Librarian; 07-20-2011 at 4:08 PM.. |
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No. That's the point.
Aside from California's restriction, in other states it's legal to buy a long gun at an FFL in any state - no matter what state the participants in the sale reside in. One would need a sharp FFL, and rational local state laws on gun transfers, and buyer/seller each from a state with rational laws to make the transaction work, because it's relatively unusual, but it IS legal. This says "It's legal to do that for long guns. Why not handguns?" - that is, buy at any FFL in whatever state, and take delivery there. Quote:
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 06-21-2011 at 1:03 AM.. |
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Sean |
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Am I wrong in assuming this would make the CA DOJ Handgun Roster moot, since possession of those handguns is not prohibited, only importation into the state for the purpose of sale?
I would love to hear the screams from Kamala if that happens. You'd never be able to find a parking spot at Cabela's in Reno.
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NRA Life Member (Benefactor level) "Those who give up some of their liberty in order to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty, nor safety." B. Franklin Calguns Community Chapters (C3) in Your Community Calguns Community Chapters (C3) and Appleseed Event Calendar The 2nd Amendment is not about hunting or competition shooting. It's all about your inalienable rights to life and liberty. Last edited by NotEnufGarage; 06-21-2011 at 2:58 AM.. |
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But you're very correct about it causing great anguish and grinding of teeth on the part of the anti-liberty folk such as Kamala Harris. |
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8 hour round trip drive or 10 day wait and restrictions? Your choice.
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NRA Life Member (Benefactor level) "Those who give up some of their liberty in order to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty, nor safety." B. Franklin Calguns Community Chapters (C3) in Your Community Calguns Community Chapters (C3) and Appleseed Event Calendar The 2nd Amendment is not about hunting or competition shooting. It's all about your inalienable rights to life and liberty. |
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NYC will be ******* itself right about now.
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#13
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I can drive 2 hours to a gun show in North Carolina, I can buy rifles through an FFL. If I find a deal on a handgun, I have talk the seller into shipping it to a Virginia FFL. California still requires that purchases must comply with CA law, ie: DROS, 10 day wait. It's the same reason you can't go to Cabela's and buy a shotgun or rifle. Of course, it's not a stretch that I'm wrong.
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Never initiate force against another. That should be the underlying principle of your life. But should someone do violence to you, retaliate without hesitation, without reservation, without quarter, until you are sure that he will never wish to harm - or never be capable of harming - you or yours again. - from THE SECOND BOOK OF KYFHO (Revised Eastern Sect Edition) |
#15
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So as long as the one FFL that they had stays closed this should go our way without any problems.
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I sincerely hope so. Once this case goes through it'll probably need to be litigated specifically against NY/NYC to get them to comply, and probably have to go all the way up to SCOTUS to get enforced b/c I doubt the 2nd Circuit will make them obey. I was talking with Mr. Kopel a few days ago and he said he believes the lower courts will fall in line rather quickly, but I personally have my doubts because if they were behaving correctly on their own we wouldn't have the laws in the anti gun states and the rulings that back them in the first place.
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"You can't stop insane people from doing insane things with insane laws. That's insane!" -- Penn Jillette Discretionary Issue is the new Separate but Equal. Last edited by yellowfin; 06-21-2011 at 6:42 AM.. |
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Feel free to correct me.
Right now it is legal for people to buy long guns in states that they do not reside in; IF the sale goes along with all the laws in both states. Right now we; Californians, can not buy long guns outside of CA because of the damned DROS system. How is this gonna change that? Will this make CA get rid of the DROS system? |
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But basically if we win this one, everyone OUTSIDE of California benefits. Quote:
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#20
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Time to do the happy dance |
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Would this lawsuit be mooted if Sykes or any other FFL reopened in DC?
Heller was a DC case because that made it a federal case. But now that McDonald has incorporated the second amendment, is there any need for this type of case to still be in DC? Specifically, was DC chosen because it now has no FFL, or because it, like Heller, is a Federal jurisdiction, not state? Would it be possible to add Plaintiffs from other states, or desirable? Supposing DC hustled and got a local FFL again -- could this be kept going as is, on account of the unreasonable burden it places on the Plaintiffs? Or would they have to amend the suit, or add Plaintiffs?
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DC is a good place for these cases because I think the path to SCOTUS is shorter. Also, with such a tiny area, it has to have everything.
If you try this in California, we've got plenty of FFLs. The case wouldn't work even if all but one FFL (let's say it's right up along the Oregon border) get shut down. |
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This wouldn't automatically change anything for CA. The problem with CA is the state laws.
CA law wont even allow a CA resident to buy/take delivery of a long gun out of state. But winning this would be a good start to challenging some of the CA laws merely from the "compelling state interest" perspective......if most other states allow purchase across state line and have no issues.....then CA would have to justify....with actual evidence, not just mere assertions....that such increased restrictions on it's residents is needed and how those restrictions are narrowly tailored to meet that need and are the least restirctive means of doing so.
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I think buying a handgun outside of CA and bringing it back would be importation. If we can get rid of this stupid restriction, at least then you can buy whatever you want in Nevada and keep it there in a safe deposit box.
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You can't buy a rifle in FL because CA state law says the transfer must be done thru a CA FFL. That goes back to that "it can be done if it's legal in BOTH states" thing.
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Lawyer, but not your lawyer. Posts aren't legal advice. |
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Gura's arguments are always amazing to me. Whenever I read motions like this I always try to take the other side and pick the argument apart. Its a fun thought exercise and makes one much more compelling in arguments. With most I can find a few counterarguments that I believe a judge would find convincing. Gura's tend to be rather bulletproof. You don't have to be a gun nut or a legal nut to understand because he writes with a sort of strategic simplicity. Anyone trying to refute his points almost invariably comes out looking like a fool.
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#28
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The fed law says you can buy a long gun out of state if the sale follows the rules in both states. CA law says transfer must be done by in-state FFL, with 10day wait. So good ole' CA has you by the balls even when you're out of state.
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#29
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Yeah and the other 10% live that far or less from AZ, Yuma is three hours from San Diego.
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"Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool that follows him?"-Obi Wan Kenobi the question here is not whether the carrying of arms is a good idea—the question is whether carrying arms is constitutionally protected. Objective standards and due process—not Defendants’ philosophy or personal beliefs about the value of this activity—must carry the day-Alan Gura |
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Say, you're a CA resident who retires, sells everything, and sets out in motor home for points unknown. You get to, say Montana, and you see a shotgun and a Glock that you buy under the new rules (assuming Gura wins this). You don't know if you are ever going back to CA with the firearms.
1. Will the FFL in Montana have to make you wait 10 days? 2. If you never take the guns back into CA does it matter whether the handgun is on the roster, or if the shotgun is an AW under CA state law? 3. Could you buy an assault weapon (non-NFA, garden variety) as long as you don't take it back into CA?
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www.christopherjhoffman.com The Second Amendment is the one right that is so fundamental that the inability to exercise it, should the need arise, would render all other rights null and void. Dead people have no rights. Magna est veritas et praevalebit |
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that is exactly the issue in the lawsuit I mentioned which I can't remember the name of. Dearth v. Holder?
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Where would you get a driver's license, CCW permit, vehicle registration, etc? Kinda the same as being homeless, but your home is on wheels and always on the move. . |
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The same way that if you buy a rental property in another state, you setup a bank account in another state, and, the rent gets deposited into that account in another state, you still get taxed income tax in California on the rental income.
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I asked to buy an AR-15, have the bullet button added and shipped to my dealer in CA. I forgot the exact words, but it was basically something like there isn't anything I can buy in the store, not even a hat.
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"The problem with quotes found on the Internet is you have no way of confirming their authenticity." -Abraham Lincoln |
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I thought the idea of bringing a gun purchased elsewhere into California has been examined and will work just fine.
As I've understood it the problem was establishing residency in the other state so that one could purchase in the Non-California state. But once I've purchased the firearm I can bring it into California and register the handgun within the required time frame and be OK? Can someone show me how I'm wrong about this? Personally, I'm looking forward to getting a Gen 4 Glock once Gura wins this one and I'd hate to be disappointed. |
#39
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Then the guy at the counter was just being an a-hole.....being an a-hole is legal in all 50-states last I checked.....no permit required.
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I think the issue really comes down to what definition of "residency" is used. If you are renting a motel room in another state.....are you not residing there for the term of your stay? I think eventually all this stuff is just gonna hafta go away. With the instant background check system what difference does it make what state you do the purchase in.....all the dealers are gonna (well accept for in CA) call the same FBI background check phone number.
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