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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 06-02-2011, 8:59 PM
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Default Better SHTF rifle, Saiga 308 or SA Socom?

Sorry if this has been posted before but I have to ask. I'm currently looking for a SHTF rifle. I basically want a "do it all" rifle and if I had to get outta Dodge it would be the ONE gun I take. I own several AR's and AK's(converted Saiga's) but since I live in Cali they all have BB's (and oh so tacticoo). But when the zombies attack I wont have the time to use a stupid tool to reload the 10 round mags. And the 223 and 7.62 rounds are good but the 308 is better for killing zombies and hunting lions, tigers, and bears.... espicially at longer distances. So I guess my real question is why should I pay over $1000 for the Socom? Other then it being so damn sexy. Thanks for your input!
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  #2  
Old 06-02-2011, 9:02 PM
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build a .308 AR, load your mags with one 308, then a 7.62 nato, then a tracer, then repeat, thats a SHTF rifle
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  #3  
Old 06-02-2011, 9:10 PM
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If SHTF the rules don't apply regarding mag limits, button etc,,,I'll stick with the AR. If I had the money the best ar-10.
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Old 06-02-2011, 9:15 PM
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OK, dumb question but - what's the significance of loading with a 308 then a 7.62 - I think of them as the same but obviously they're not. Is the 7.62 hardball and the 308 (usually) a HP?
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Old 06-02-2011, 9:22 PM
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i was being silly, there are suttle differences, see below

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Old 06-02-2011, 9:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weber_2 View Post
So I guess my real question is why should I pay over $1000 for the Socom? Other then it being so damn sexy.
Yes, buy the Socom, even if you have to pay full retail (also please disregard any comments I've made in other threads about how they're overpriced & inaccurate or how I'm building a 16" 308 AR that'll weigh a pound less and be more accurate for less money, that's all hogwash. Buy the Socom!).
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  #7  
Old 06-03-2011, 6:10 AM
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I plan on swapping my BB for a real AR mag release when SHTF since there wont be any laws to abide by then. But Im also planning on getting a SOCOM soon cause they look totally BA.
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  #8  
Old 06-03-2011, 6:46 AM
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Well if SHTF to justify lethal force im sure you can remove any CA compliance devices.
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Old 06-03-2011, 6:48 AM
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Originally Posted by SVT_Fox View Post
build a .308 AR, load your mags with one 308, then a 7.62 nato, then a tracer, then repeat, thats a SHTF rifle
You're forgetting that in California, simple possession of tracer ammunition other than shotgun ammo is a felony. Yes, it's a stupid law and in a SHTF situation, you'll have other things to worry about.
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  #10  
Old 06-03-2011, 7:13 AM
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SAI rifles are nothing to write home about. I had a lower level one and the barrel was way out of index...it runs, it's just not correct. Maybe match models are better? Socom is too expensive for what it is, IMO. Majority of small parts are Chinese/Taiwanese...will need to be replaced eventually if it's to be used in a 'defensive situation'. Why not just spend the money up front on a Fulton and save yourself the headache?

I'd rather have a Russian Saiga and a truckload of ammo rather than a Socom that is overpriced, cheaply made of Chinese parts and built by teenagers in Illinois.
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  #11  
Old 06-03-2011, 7:35 AM
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Not to mention the fact that you can get about 3 Saiga .308s for the cost of a single SOCOM...
"Quantity is a quality all its own..."
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  #12  
Old 06-03-2011, 7:42 AM
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If "SHTF" and you're worried about "zombies", you really think LEO will care about stinking bullet buttons
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  #13  
Old 06-03-2011, 7:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weber_2 View Post
Better SHTF rifle, Saiga 308 or SA Socom?
I suggest a Bush or Scout with a Good Iron M14 US Coast Guard / Navy Muzzle Brake from SEI. This will give you the longest sight radius.
Install the M8 railed hand guard from UltiMAK and run a low sitting Aimpoint, your iron sights will co-witness with the red dot.

Here is one that I put together, I used the Vortex M14 Flash Suppressor that uses the castle nut and original tall NM front sight that is standard in the Bush/Scout.

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  #14  
Old 06-03-2011, 8:06 AM
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With the exception of long range accuracy IMO the M1A doesnt do anything the Saiga cant do for 1/4 the price.

I had a Scout and liked it but there were too many things I didnt like about it for me to keep it.

Price
Weight
Ergonomics
Expensive mags
Safety location
Price

A converted Saiga would be a nice addition and plenty good enough to get the job done in a SHTF situation should one arise.

So you know Im not blowing smoke. This is the one I sold here on Calguns a few years ago.


Last edited by cmace22; 06-03-2011 at 8:10 AM..
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  #15  
Old 06-03-2011, 8:48 AM
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I'll add that I see nothing wrong with a converted Saiga .308, I just prefer M14 rifles and I think they garner less unwanted ant-gun attention in California.
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  #16  
Old 06-03-2011, 8:54 AM
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Saiga .308, hands down. You can run whatever ammo, .308/7.62/stuff removed from mud, through a Saiga. I sold my Socom because it "liked" expensive rounds.
Get the Saiga, convert, use the 1500 dollars in savings to by several thousand rounds of "crappy" russian ammo, defend against zombies, laugh as your neighbor's rifle won't cycle his ammo.
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  #17  
Old 06-03-2011, 9:10 AM
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i dont understand... since u possess a few ARs/AKs why would u need anything else in a SHTF cituation? what a 223/556 caliber bullet is not enuff to kill?

hmmm
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  #18  
Old 06-03-2011, 9:11 AM
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Originally Posted by 21SF View Post
Well if SHTF to justify lethal force im sure you can remove any CA compliance devices.
That'd be a risky assumption. If you are talking an end of the world SHTF scenario, then yea I'm with you, who cares? However what about the riot or flood scenario, where law enforcement will happily follow up on nearly all reported crimes. You plug a handful of people who try to do a home invasion on your house during a 3-4 day riot and you can bet dollars to donuts (no pun intended) there will be an investigation.

Also in a situation like Katrina where guardsmen and cops are actively going door to door checking up on residents with intent to confiscate guns or simply see who is left in the neighborhoods (encourage evacuation...). You could be at the end of week two of a localized SHTF scenario when help shows up to check in and finds out you have an illegal assault weapon. Your gambling your freedom away on the whim that they will follow a spirit of the law (he had good intentions) approach. There were plenty of hot head cops and soldiers during Katrina who didn't care why you were doing what you were doing, they still confiscated guns. Hell there's the video of them beating the old lady for her revolver. What's your plan when one of those type of cops responds to your house instead of the good ole boy who will praise your vigilance?

I'm not a gambling man. I'd stick with something on less of a gray area. During a SHTF scenario you'd already have a ton of stuff to worry about, no need to add on another concern.

I'd get the SA Socom or a mini-14/30
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  #19  
Old 06-03-2011, 10:41 AM
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Well if SHTF to justify lethal force im sure you can remove any CA compliance devices.
Both rifles in there OEM configuration are featureless, unless you get the M1a with a flash hider. They are already complaint with detachable mags, what would you need to be removing?
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  #20  
Old 06-03-2011, 10:54 AM
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Both rifles in there OEM configuration are featureless, unless you get the M1a with a flash hider. They are already complaint with detachable mags, what would you need to be removing?
He was referring to the OPs ar15 and ak with bb devices.
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  #21  
Old 06-03-2011, 10:59 AM
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OK, dumb question but - what's the significance of loading with a 308 then a 7.62 - I think of them as the same but obviously they're not. Is the 7.62 hardball and the 308 (usually) a HP?
.308 is a 'hotter' round with more powder pressure than 7.62x51. 7.62x51 is usually military ammunition, with fmj, otm, or tracer bullets loaded, whilst .308 has HP, SP (for hunting), fmj, etc.

That's just my basic understanding. A quick google-fu search should yield more details.
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:01 AM
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Not be argumentative but you are making much ado about nothing. If you want the Saiga, just admit you want a Saiga. You don't need to use a completely non-existent issue to justify it.

People that do not know better make way too big a deal about bullet buttons and compliance devices. The biggest part they overlook is that they convert to normal functionality in seconds. So if the [sarcasm]dead really start rising from the ground[/sarcasm] you will have a fully functional AR15 or AK47. Nobody is going to be too concerned about enforcing SB23 when they have to worry about being a zombies next meal.

Now you are thinking, but what about everyday practical use. Most people only plink with their rifles. So it is not a big deal. It doesn't get in the way at the range. As for training realistically, most the big schools are out of state. Once you cross that state line it is perfectly legal to remove the bullet button. So you can take your Front Sight and Gun Site courses all you want and have a fully functional rifle. And when it comes to home defense, well that is why you own other guns like a shotgun or handgun. Meanwhile when and if the big earth quake ever comes that turns California into an island and Arizona into beach front property and everybody is turning on each other, you can twist off that bullet button in seconds and have a fully functional AR15 or AK47. Arguably the finest rifles in the world.

As for .308 over 5.56mm, if you live in a rural area and will be worried about open field distances it is a great round. For urban environments where you are going house to house it is way too overpowered. There is just too much recoil for CQB, it slows you down too much. Engaging multiple targets and recovering from misses or failure to stops takes entirely too long. Speed is everything in CQB. If you do any CQB training this will become extremely obvious.

In conclusion, I am of the view that when it comes to finding a nice survival rifle you pick the right tool for you environment and don't sweat the bullet button. In a real SHTF situation (as in world coming to end and not just some noise at the door) it will not matter. The rest of the time, obeying the law and leaving it on there is not the inconvenience you think it is. I don't even notice it anymore. My mags still get changed.

Last edited by tacticalcity; 06-03-2011 at 11:16 AM..
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  #23  
Old 06-03-2011, 11:04 AM
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The Saiga .308 is a mighty attractive option for a DMR (designated marksmen) type rifle, like how the M1A/M-14 is in the U.S. military. The Saiga .308 also won't have any hiccups or problems stomaching cheapo Wolf or Tula steel cased .308 ammo either, which is a big plus in my book. The only issues I can think of is the magazines, which you would have to have shipped from online/mail vendors, since Saiga .308 mags are uncommon compared to M1a mags, etc.
You also can't have the joy of legally getting 25 rd mags for use in a Saiga .308, you are stuck with the 8-10 rd mags while here in CA.
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  #24  
Old 06-03-2011, 11:16 AM
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Don't worry about long range if we're talking SHTF here.

If anyone's farther out than 200 yards, you shouldn't be shooting at them, you should be doing your best to AVOID them.

Besides, it's much more likely that we will see a more localized shtf scenario eg: flood, earthquake (most definitely), riot etc. than a national or global meltdown of humanity.

In that situation, laws still apply, so if you're out of legal spec joke's gonna be on you cuz you can bet in this state the books are stacked against you and the cops and the jury don't give a half damn about the spirit of the law when it comes to guns (maybe if you shot at a hunter aiming at a condor, they'd sympathize).

So I'd say get the Saiga, although I don't think I'd buy one because I'm an accuracy freak and I love the M1A platform (own a post-war Garand and match-barrel M1A). I have no doubt the gun is supremely reliable (basically a .308 AK) and it's like $550-$600 and you can beat the crap out of it and it won't hate you by malfunctioning. Besides, you just want a practical gun to engage out to 200 yards max and that rifle will more than fill that role.

If you want it to look pretty or shoot close groups out to 700-800 yards, then I'd say get an M1A Loaded/Match variant or AR10.
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Old 06-03-2011, 12:03 PM
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go with the saiga. saiga 308 for $500 tapco pistol grip/stock $70 and a kalinka optic/mount(or whatever you prefer)$400. that'll put you back about $1000. an AR10(from Armalite) will ding you $1200+ not including a scope and a socom will be at least $1800(from SA site) with out a scope.
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  #26  
Old 06-03-2011, 2:17 PM
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When SHTF fan Id be more concerned over the zombies than the lions and bears. The 5.56 allows you to carry alot more ammo and does well against zombies.
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Old 06-03-2011, 3:45 PM
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ptr 91 or any other hk91 style 308
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Old 06-03-2011, 3:45 PM
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I wouldn't get a M1 simply because of all the problems I read. people used to bad mouth Polytech M14s but seems to me that Socom has more problems. I guess you need a lifetime warranty when its gonna break on you.
If I had to choose between a Saiga 308 and a Socom I would choose the Saiga. I read way too many problems about socom. Seems to me that they are just working off the name and turning out crap. You don't even need to convert the Saiga. Just get the one that has the wood stock. It's way better than the plastic one will ever be. This way you can still have detachable mags etc and still be featureless. if you shop used i bet you can pick one up way cheaper. ive seen them as low as 500ish and as high as 800ish converted
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  #29  
Old 06-03-2011, 5:03 PM
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FAL, PTR91, or Saiga .308. Those are what I'd go with.
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Old 06-03-2011, 5:03 PM
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saiga

you can buy a saiga and like 4000 rounds of tulammo for the price of an M14, and the saiga will eat it all with no hiccups or complaints.
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Old 06-03-2011, 5:35 PM
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Originally Posted by weber_2 View Post
Sorry if this has been posted before but I have to ask. I'm currently looking for a SHTF rifle. I basically want a "do it all" rifle and if I had to get outta Dodge it would be the ONE gun I take. I own several AR's and AK's(converted Saiga's) but since I live in Cali they all have BB's (and oh so tacticoo). But when the zombies attack I wont have the time to use a stupid tool to reload the 10 round mags. And the 223 and 7.62 rounds are good but the 308 is better for killing zombies and hunting lions, tigers, and bears.... espicially at longer distances. So I guess my real question is why should I pay over $1000 for the Socom? Other then it being so damn sexy. Thanks for your input!
How about if zombies attack you just go catch one, feed it the meat that is defrosting in your freezer, make nice with it and teach it to attack the other zombies?
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Old 06-03-2011, 5:44 PM
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How about if zombies attack you just go catch one, feed it the meat that is defrosting in your freezer, make nice with it and teach it to attack the other zombies?
You can't train zombies man thats just crazy.
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  #33  
Old 06-03-2011, 6:35 PM
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Socom is by far more accurate, Saiga is by far more reliable. Saiga cost 25-30% of the price. That simple to me. If your shooting under 200 yards Saiga is the way to go. I've put 500 rounds of the dirtiest Russian ammo through my Saiga .308 in an afternoon, till the barrel was coated in a thick layer of crap and it had no hick-ups. Try that in a Socom. Having said that I still want a Socom also!!
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Old 06-03-2011, 6:58 PM
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Originally Posted by MongooseV8 View Post
I plan on swapping my BB for a real AR mag release when SHTF since there wont be any laws to abide by then. But Im also planning on getting a SOCOM soon cause they look totally BA.
Good luck finding the parts with the Visagoths at the gate.
Again Someone here will remind everyone that like Katrina and LA Riots, people who BROKE THE LAW during the SHTF time will face the punishment whether they were a "good guy" or a "bad guy."

The only SHTF rifle that makes sense if one that is CA legal before and after.

That's why I bought a Benelli MR1 and a M1A Scout. So I could reload with already owned hi caps without violating any penal codes.

If you think SHTF is the total breakdown of society, and you'll be Vic and Blood afterwards, you seen entirely too many of the crappy movies like THE ROAD and THE BOOK OF ELI.
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Old 06-03-2011, 7:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Bizcuits View Post
That'd be a risky assumption. If you are talking an end of the world SHTF scenario, then yea I'm with you, who cares? However what about the riot or flood scenario, where law enforcement will happily follow up on nearly all reported crimes. You plug a handful of people who try to do a home invasion on your house during a 3-4 day riot and you can bet dollars to donuts (no pun intended) there will be an investigation.

Also in a situation like Katrina where guardsmen and cops are actively going door to door checking up on residents with intent to confiscate guns or simply see who is left in the neighborhoods (encourage evacuation...). You could be at the end of week two of a localized SHTF scenario when help shows up to check in and finds out you have an illegal assault weapon. Your gambling your freedom away on the whim that they will follow a spirit of the law (he had good intentions) approach. There were plenty of hot head cops and soldiers during Katrina who didn't care why you were doing what you were doing, they still confiscated guns. Hell there's the video of them beating the old lady for her revolver. What's your plan when one of those type of cops responds to your house instead of the good ole boy who will praise your vigilance?

I'm not a gambling man. I'd stick with something on less of a gray area. During a SHTF scenario you'd already have a ton of stuff to worry about, no need to add on another concern.

I'd get the SA Socom or a mini-14/30
Yeah. He has it. Screw that commie rifle s**t. Why reward our enemies by buying their rifle. Besides, what are the odds you have legally acquired Saiga mags in your garage?
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  #36  
Old 06-03-2011, 7:09 PM
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Both will serve you well. Pick the one you prefer and go with it.
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  #37  
Old 06-04-2011, 4:17 AM
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I am all for arming ones self to the teeth and I'd love to have a Saiga or M1A. However, all of the longwinded couch commando talk of 'SHTF' and zombies is getting pretty tired.
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  #38  
Old 06-04-2011, 6:40 AM
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I'd prefer a battle proven .308 like the HK91, M14, or FAL clones.
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  #39  
Old 06-04-2011, 7:07 AM
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308 ak saiga FTW. if you run out of lube don't worry, it'll run great without it.
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