Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-10-2011, 8:49 AM
chicoredneck's Avatar
chicoredneck chicoredneck is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,821
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default .30 caliber ballistics

I posted this link in the hunting forum, but it applies here too (perhaps more so).

This article explains the ballistic properties of .30 calliber bullets in comparison to other calibers and why it is inferior in some ways for shooting long range.

It is not meant to bash .30 caliber cartridges in any way, just a factual analysis of why many long range shooters are using other calibers.

The article is written by Bryan Litz. He is a ballistician for Berger Bullets, a missile designer, former aerospace engineer, and has published several books on long range shooting and ballistics. All this and he is still a very young man.

I have also included a link to his main page which has many other highly educational articles for those wishing to better their markmanship abilities.

.30 ballistics
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/...ullVersion.pdf

articles page
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles.htm

main website, applied ballistics
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/

Long range shooting is one of my hobbies. Because I see people post here all the time with caliber and rifle questions I thought that this could serve as a useful tool for those interested.

Last edited by chicoredneck; 05-10-2011 at 12:18 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-10-2011, 11:04 AM
chicoredneck's Avatar
chicoredneck chicoredneck is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,821
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

For those who don't take the time to read the post it basically says that the .30 caliber bullets available do not have a ballistic coeffecient that matches their weight when compared to other calibers. Combine this with the increased recoil and it makes less and less sense to shoot a .30 caliber cartridge for any long range shooting.

It also makes the 6mm, 6.5mm, and 7mm calibers look really good.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-10-2011, 12:09 PM
RugerNo1's Avatar
RugerNo1 RugerNo1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bakersfield
Posts: 1,508
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

But, but...the military...and .30 caliber....it is the best!

For what most shooters do (killing paper at close range) they would not see the difference between .308 bullets and the 6mm/6.5mm/7mm selections.

Everyone wants the .300 Win. Mags and .338 Lapua for long range, but with selections like those there is a significant representation of the law of diminishing returns. Greater recoil, less barrel life, expensive components, and really expensive rifles. All for a return in greater energy being imparted on the target. A paper or steel target that does not die when it is hit. Rounds like the .338 Lapua are really only useful if you have the money and skill to shoot extended long range. Most do not have both.

Again, for what most shooters do (poking holes in paper or steel) the smaller calibers are very useful and encourage people to shoot more.

Think of it like this:
(prices taken from powdervalley.com)

1000 pcs. of .308 win. brass by Winchester- 329.00
1000 pcs. of .308 175 Sierra Matchkings- 281.56
1000 pcs. of Winchester WLR primers- 25.00
8 lbs. of Hogden Varget - 139.50

1000 pcs. of .243 Win. brass by Winchester- 375.00
1000 pcs. of .243 107 Sierra Matchkings- 244.62
1000 pcs. of Winchester WLR primers- 25.00
8 lbs. of Hogden H4350- 139.50

The prices are nearly identical for a round that has less recoil (and no real reason for a brake in my opinion), better performance in the wind, and less drop all the way out to 1000 yards and more.

The only advantages that the .30 caliber has to the 6mms and company are barrel life, energy on target, and availiability of factory match ammo.

However, I would still have a beginner start on a factory built .308 win. for a few reasons: it has easier resale, decent factory ammo, rifles are abundant, and one will learn more about reading the wind with a .30 caliber rifle than with one of the "wind cheaters".

In my opinion, a custom built .308 for shooting paper and steel (not ignoring competition rifles built for F-TR or Palma, etc.) could very well be a waste of one's time and money.

Let me conclude with saying that I am not bashing those of us that play with .30 caliber rifles (hell, I own three), but the claims that the .30 caliber rounds are superior is just plain nonsense.


Sources:

-JBMballistics.com
-CAPRC.com (members and content)
-accurateshooter.com (members and content)
-The Rifleman's Journal (online blog with years of useful articles)
-Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting by Bryan Litz
-Gunsmiths: Leroy Johnson of Johnson's Precision Gunsmithing, Mac Tilton and Bruce Duncan of MT Guns
__________________
Dane

For the Learned Rifleman

Last edited by RugerNo1; 05-10-2011 at 12:54 PM.. Reason: I am a History Student and am compelled to add sources of my information
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-10-2011, 12:12 PM
killshot44's Avatar
killshot44 killshot44 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 3,942
iTrader: 28 / 97%
Default

It's a big reason why .308 and .223 compete in their own class; F-T/R.

They can't beat the performance of the long, skinny, high B.C. bullets used in 6, 6.5 and 7mms that dominate the F-Open class or Benchrest.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-10-2011, 12:21 PM
chicoredneck's Avatar
chicoredneck chicoredneck is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,821
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RugerNo1 View Post
But, but...the military...and .30 caliber....it is the best!

For what most shooters do (killing paper at close range) they would not see the difference between .308 bullets and the 6mm/6.5mm/7mm selections.

Everyone wants the .300 Win. Mags and .338 Lapua for long range, but with selections like those there is a significant representation of the law of diminishing returns. Greater recoil, less barrel life, expensive components, and really expensive rifles. All for a return in greater energy being imparted on the target. A paper or steel target that does not die when it is hit. Rounds like the .338 Lapua are really only useful if you have the money and skill to shoot extended long range. Most do not have both.

Again, for what most shooters do (poking holes in paper or steel) the smaller calibers are very useful and encourage people to shoot more.

Think of it like this:
(prices taken from powdervalley.com)

1000 pcs. of .308 win. brass by Winchester- 329.00
1000 pcs. of .308 175 Sierra Matchkings- 281.56
1000 pcs. of Winchester WLR primers- 25.00
8 lbs. of Hogden Varget - 139.50

1000 pcs. of .243 Win. brass by Winchester- 375.00
1000 pcs. of .243 107 Sierra Matchkings- 244.62
1000 pcs. of Winchester WLR primers- 25.00
8 lbs. of Hogden H4350- 139.50

The prices are nearly identical for a round that has less recoil (and no real reason for a brake in my opinion), better performance in the wind, and less drop all the way out to 1000 yards and more.

The only advantages that the .30 caliber has to the 6mms are barrel life, energy on target, and availiability of factory match ammo.

However, I would still have a beginner start on a factory built .308 win. for a few reasons: it has easier resale, decent factory ammo, rifles are abundant, and one will learn more about reading the wind with a .30 caliber rifle than with one of the "wind cheaters".

In my opinion, a custom built .308 for shooting paper and steel (not ignoring competition rifles built for F-TR or Palma, etc.) could very well be a waste of one's time and money.

Let me conclude with saying that I am not bashing those of us that play with .30 caliber rifles (hell, I own three), but the claims that the .30 caliber rounds are superior is just plain nonsense.
Well explained.
Even the little 6mm, 6.5, and 7mm are more than enough for shooting game long range as they still have enough retained energy and for way out there more retained energy than the smaller .30 caliber offerings ie. 308, 30-06 etc.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-10-2011, 12:37 PM
RugerNo1's Avatar
RugerNo1 RugerNo1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bakersfield
Posts: 1,508
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicoredneck View Post
Well explained.
Even the little 6mm, 6.5, and 7mm are more than enough for shooting game long range as they still have enough retained energy and for way out there more retained energy than the smaller .30 caliber offerings ie. 308, 30-06 etc.
To further expand on your statement. We are in California after all and I would venture to say that most hunting shots will be taken much closer than where the .30s would have an advantage. I know the areas that I hunt big game are so thick that shots beyond 250 yards are very uncommon. Therefore, a big rifle would not be that necessary.

Additionally, varminters already know that the smaller rounds are more than acceptable for their game of choice as well.

The big .30s are not sounding so awesome now are they?
__________________
Dane

For the Learned Rifleman
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-10-2011, 1:22 PM
spareparts spareparts is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 741
iTrader: 18 / 100%
Default

.30's will always have a place in my safe for two reasons:

Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-10-2011, 1:26 PM
RugerNo1's Avatar
RugerNo1 RugerNo1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bakersfield
Posts: 1,508
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

^ Two of my three .30s

Unfortunately, still missing an Enfield, Springfield, Browning, Mosin.....
__________________
Dane

For the Learned Rifleman

Last edited by RugerNo1; 05-10-2011 at 1:30 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-10-2011, 1:28 PM
gotshotgun?'s Avatar
gotshotgun? gotshotgun? is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Alameda County
Posts: 3,649
iTrader: 119 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spareparts View Post
.30's will always have a place in my safe for two reasons:

I'm loving it!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-10-2011, 1:31 PM
choprzrul's Avatar
choprzrul choprzrul is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Coast, CA
Posts: 5,830
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spareparts View Post
.30's will always have a place in my safe for two reasons:

Those look like good reasons to me.....

.
__________________
"Send money. We have lawyers and guns." -- Gene Hoffman
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-10-2011, 1:34 PM
Rock6.3's Avatar
Rock6.3 Rock6.3 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Shasta County California
Posts: 2,444
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spareparts View Post
.30's will always have a place in my safe for two reasons:

Add the 1903 Springfield rifle (or 1903-A3)
Remove the M1A
Add the AR-10

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-10-2011, 7:11 PM
Wnick308's Avatar
Wnick308 Wnick308 is online now
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 589
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Never remove the M14!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-10-2011, 7:19 PM
bcrich's Avatar
bcrich bcrich is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: ontario
Posts: 1,056
iTrader: 68 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wnick308 View Post
Never remove the M14!
Yeah, just keep adding the others
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-11-2011, 8:58 AM
RugerNo1's Avatar
RugerNo1 RugerNo1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bakersfield
Posts: 1,508
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

The above posters seems to be referring to the aesthetic value of the rifles. Sure, M1s and M14s have a classic beauty to them (and history which is my draw to them), but they are not addressing their ballistic shortcomings which this thread is about.

If it was not sacrelige to chamber an M1 in something beyond 30-06 I think the idea of a 6mm-06(or 6.5mm) would be a very fun rifle.
__________________
Dane

For the Learned Rifleman
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-11-2011, 9:34 AM
CK_32's Avatar
CK_32 CK_32 is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,284
iTrader: 37 / 100%
Default

Wait I thought shooting 30 cal made your pee pee bigger..... Awwwww man......
__________________
For Sale: 40 S&W Bullet Case Valve Stem Caps

What's Your Caliber??


My Youtube channel
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-11-2011, 9:47 AM
RugerNo1's Avatar
RugerNo1 RugerNo1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bakersfield
Posts: 1,508
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CK_32 View Post
Wait I thought shooting 30 cal made your pee pee bigger..... Awwwww man......
Ok, I will admit that this made me laugh. But remember, a lot of the 6mm-7mm projectiles are longer....so what does that say?
__________________
Dane

For the Learned Rifleman
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-11-2011, 9:48 AM
goodlookin1's Avatar
goodlookin1 goodlookin1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,459
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CK_32 View Post
Wait I thought shooting 30 cal made your pee pee bigger.....
Does getting a hard-on count???

__________________
www.FirearmReviews.net
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-11-2011, 9:57 AM
chicoredneck's Avatar
chicoredneck chicoredneck is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,821
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Hey,.. Hey ladies... check out the size of that 7mm 180gr VLD over there

http://www.greentophuntfish.com/prodimg/BRG28502.jpg

hmm. can't... imbed... picture
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-11-2011, 10:05 AM
Peter W Bush's Avatar
Peter W Bush Peter W Bush is offline
Calguns Supreme Overlord
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Fernando Valley
Posts: 4,734
iTrader: 61 / 100%
Default

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...-with-300-wsm/

2.815" at 1000 yards with a 300 WSM. Doesn' get better than that, IMO.

Interesting quote from the article about his reloading technique-
Quote:
Matt shared some details of his reloading process with Assist. Editor Jason Baney. This may surprise you. Matt anneals his 300 WSM brass after every firing. The necks are turned to .0135″ wall thickness for a .338″-neck chamber. Interestingly, Matt does not meplat-trim or point his Berger bullets. However, he pre-sorts the bullets very thoroughly, segregating them by .001″ variance in both bearing surface and overall bullet length. You need extremely consistent bullet-to-bullet BCs to shoot record groups like Matt did.
Sure, in charts some cartridges look better than .30 cal. but in the real world, most calibers shoot better than the guy shooting them.
__________________
Will trade liquor/wine/beer for parts and accesories and ammo! PM me. Dont drink n shoot. Offer void where prohibited.

"I don't like repeat offenders. I like dead offenders."
-Ted Nugent

Quote:
Originally Posted by TURBOELKY View Post
Well, glad you got the kit anyways, I'm sure I'll fondle it a little in the near future..... oh God, that's going to be in somebody's signature....:D
Quote:
Originally Posted by TURBOELKY View Post
put me in line, but if Peter W. Bush takes it, I need to be removed from his Signature line.......:D
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-11-2011, 10:23 AM
RugerNo1's Avatar
RugerNo1 RugerNo1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bakersfield
Posts: 1,508
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter W Bush View Post
...most calibers shoot better than the guy shooting them.
I agree wholeheartedly. However, that AS article is talking about a very specialized custom rifle (benchrest) that most members of this site would not be interested in and I would group the 300 WSM in the same area as the 300 win.

Additionally, the big .30s have relatively similar barrel life as the 6mm-7mm rifles so one of the primary advantages that many claim for the .30s is washed away. Which leaves us with factory match ammo and abundant rifles.

My position is that if someone wants to play the long range game then a round that is cheaper to load for and has the same, or possibly better, ballistics would be more appropriate. This would encourage them to go out and shoot it more, thus becoming a better rifleman.

I belive, however, that the shooting community as a whole puts too much focus on the chambering and the rifle and not enough on the shooters themselves. A big .30 or a 6mm will not make you a better shot. Practice, knowledge, and experience can make any round a strong performer.

That is why I like NRA Service Rifle. The rifle choice is limited and forces the shooters to get better with their rifles, not chase the next quick fix or advantage. Skill is the name of the game.
__________________
Dane

For the Learned Rifleman

Last edited by RugerNo1; 05-11-2011 at 10:26 AM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 1:38 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.