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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 05-06-2011, 8:45 PM
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Default Bullet Button: Haynie v. Pleasanton (8/4/16 9th affirms lower ct dismissal))

Bottom line first. The California Department of Justice has opined in print and on the record that Bullet Buttons are legal.

Last March, CGF filed Haynie v. Pleasanton. For strategic reasons (some of which remain) we had kept this case at a low profile.

Some background. Mark Haynie was arrested February 7, 2009 by Pleasanton PD on the way back from Chabot with an OLL, bullet button correctly installed, an empty magazine well, and a cracked windshield that created the stop in the first place. He was arrested and forced to post bail of $60,000.00 ($6,000 to the bondsman out of his pocket.)

CGF successfully defended him and obtained a finding of factual innocence. We then sued Pleasanton PD and CA DOJ. The original complaint is here.

Pleasanton then offered to settle the case as to them by paying Mr. Haynie's $6000.00 in damages. CGF decided to facilitate the settlement by not insisting on it's legal fees.

We amended the complaint against The California Department of Justice basically claiming that CA DOJ has a statutory duty under a constitutional avoidance theory to inform law enforcement and the 58 DA's that AR-15 (and other) like rifles with bullet buttons conform to the law and are legal long arms in California.

Today, The California Department of Justice filed a motion to dismiss.

Here are critical excerpts (emphasis added):
Quote:
Plaintiff Haynie was arrested in Alameda County for allegedly violating the AWCA , when Pleasanton Police thought that his Colt AR-15 was a banned weapon. FAC ¶ 12. However, the rifle possessed by Haynie was equipped with a “bullet button,” a device which required the use of a tool to remove the magazine, taking the weapon out of the statutory definition of an assault weapon. FAC ¶15. Therefore , charges were never filed, and Pleasanton stipulated to Plaintiff Haynie’s factual innocence and agreed to pay for Haynie’s bail bond costs. FAC ¶¶18-22.

...

Plaintiffs implicitly concede, as they must, that both California’s regulations and the Assault Weapons Identification Guide issued by the California Department of Justice accurately recite California law, and demonstrate that Haynie’s gun was a “fixed magazine” weapon not banned by the AWCA. 3 (FN 3 This assumes that the bullet button was installed properly, and actually required the use of a tool to release the magazine) FAC ¶¶ 28, 32. Accordingly, Haynie’s arrest was clearly improper under relevant California law and contrary to the Department’s guide and regulations. Plaintiffs have not explained how issuing a new bulletin would be more effective than the existing guide and regulations. While Plaintiffs contend that if the Department of Justice issued a bulletin it would “[e]nsure statewide compliance with the law” (FAC ¶ 34), they supply no rationale for believing this to be true. Based on the facts alleged in the First Amended Complaint, Haynie’s weapon was legal, and his arrest was improper notwithstanding the publication of regulations and a guide which explained the legality of the gun.

....

As pled, Haynie’s arrest appears to be human error by an officer in Pleasanton, and there is no showing that a new bulletin about assault weapons would reduce such errors to zero or eliminate the “fear” alleged by Plaintiffs.
I'm forced to not comment much on they "why" or "next steps" as much of the same strategic items that required some discretion in this case remain in place.

However, there is now clear evidence that the California Department of Justice opines on the record that properly installed bullet buttons with 10 round or less magazines create legal AR type firearms in California.

-Gene
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Last edited by hoffmang; 05-08-2011 at 11:10 AM..
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Old 05-06-2011, 8:50 PM
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Ha!

This isn't bad!

I thought it was something crazy, like an incompetent lawyer actually losing a BB criminal defense case, or something like that. . .

Wow - nothing to see here - except for more WIN.



The whole WINNING thing is not just a meme - it's an accurate reflection of our overall progress here. . .

CUE: FGG!

ALSO - I know people associate Don ONLY with Nordyke. That is error. DK works on many many cases, most of which do not appear here - and every single one that I know of has had a very positive outcome. We always need to remember that we are winning as much as 95 percent of the cases that we file (by "we" I mean everyone - not just CGF).

I think sometimes we have battered spouse syndrome on this stuff - but that's OLD THINKING - the new thinking is that we are pretty much epically winning everything we touch.

Last edited by oaklander; 05-06-2011 at 8:56 PM..
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Old 05-06-2011, 8:54 PM
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Huzzah!

Is there a PDF suitable for framing with Kamela's signature and everything?
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Old 05-06-2011, 8:54 PM
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this is great news and back up data to present to LEO concerning any confusions with BB on an AR or any other weapon for that matter.
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Old 05-06-2011, 8:55 PM
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Not bad at all! Great news! Keep up the great work, guys!
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Old 05-06-2011, 8:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkincal View Post
Huzzah!

Is there a PDF suitable for framing with Kamela's signature and everything?
It was the final link in my post: http://www.archive.org/download/gov....25676.26.1.pdf

-Gene
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Old 05-06-2011, 8:55 PM
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Ditto.
No bad news.

Looks like DOJ is going to do everything they can to keep the BB from going to court and being codified in case law.


Or did this case do exactly that?
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Old 05-06-2011, 8:55 PM
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Awesome!!!!!!!! I can't wait to hear FGG
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Old 05-06-2011, 8:56 PM
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Old 05-06-2011, 8:57 PM
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VICTOLY!
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Old 05-06-2011, 8:59 PM
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
It was the final link in my post: http://www.archive.org/download/gov....25676.26.1.pdf

-Gene
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Or did this case do exactly that?
This filing is an admission in a Federal Court by the Attorney General of California that a properly installed bullet button on an off list rifle is not a semiautomatic centerfire rifle with the capacity to accept a detachable magazine.

You can't get much more affirmative or official than that. It's in some ways more binding than an official AG "opinion" as it's a position taken in an adversarial Federal action.

-Gene
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:02 PM
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Ditto.
No bad news.

Looks like DOJ is going to do everything they can to keep the BB from going to court and being codified in case law.


Or did this case do exactly that?
The highlighted text from the motion in Gene's post is a statement of capitulation. As configured (with a bullet button) it is a "fixed magazine" firearm.

EDIT: Gene beat me to it
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawk556 View Post
Awesome!!!!!!!! I can't wait to hear FGG
If a tool is required to remove the magazine, the rifle doesn't have the capacity to accept a detachable magazine. It's that simple!
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:12 PM
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Right on!!!
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:12 PM
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Originally Posted by FABIO GETS GOOSED!!! View Post
If a tool is required to remove the magazine, the rifle doesn't have the capacity to accept a detachable magazine. It's that simple!
Big wheels turn slowly.

We've been saying that since 2005
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:12 PM
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Well done . . . so is having a magazine actually installed important? Or is an empty magazine well okay?
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
Bottom line first. The California Department of Justice has opined in print and on the record that Bullet Buttons are legal.

Last March, CGF filed Haynie v. Pleasanton. For strategic reasons (some of which remain) we had kept this case at a low profile.

Some background. Mark Haynie was arrested February 7, 2009 by Pleasanton PD on the way back from Chabot with an OLL, bullet button correctly installed, and empty magazine well, and a cracked windshield that created the stop in the first place. He was arrested and forced to post bail of $60,000.00 ($6,000 to the bondsman out of his pocket.)

CGF successfully defended him and obtained a finding of factual innocence. We then sued Pleasanton PD and CA DOJ
. The original complaint is here.

Pleasanton then offered to settle the case as to them by paying Mr. Haynie's $6000.00 is damages. CGF decided to facilitate the settlement by not insisting on it's legal fees.

We amended the complaint against The California Department of Justice basically claiming that CA DOJ has a statutory duty under a constitutional avoidance theory to inform law enforcement and the 58 DA's that AR-15 (and other) like rifles with bullet buttons conform to the law and are legal long arms in California.

Today, The California Department of Justice filed a motion to dismiss.

Here are critical excerpts (emphasis added):


I'm forced to not comment much on they "why" or "next steps" as much of the same strategic items that required some discretion in this case remain in place.

However, there is now clear evidence that the California Department of Justice opines on the record that properly installed bullet buttons with 10 round or less magazines create legal AR type firearms in California.

-Gene
I love you guys. I will again donate some money.
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:19 PM
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Great job! Thank you for all your hard work.
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:20 PM
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I wonder if we can get places like cheaper than dirt and sportsmans guide to start shipping here now?
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:24 PM
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That could probably be done with one single phone call to the right person. BUT, I'm NOT volunteering for yet another project LOL!!!

My wife already misses me. . .



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I wonder if we can get places like cheaper than dirt and sportsmans guide to start shipping here now?
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:24 PM
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and

Nice win
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
Well done . . . so is having a magazine actually installed important? Or is an empty magazine well okay?
From Gene's post: Some background. Mark Haynie was arrested February 7, 2009 by Pleasanton PD on the way back from Chabot with an OLL, bullet button correctly installed, and empty magazine well, and a cracked windshield that created the stop in the first place.
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
Well done . . . so is having a magazine actually installed important? Or is an empty magazine well okay?
Having a magazine in the well is of no importance...the firearm is incapable of accepting a detachable magazine.
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:30 PM
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MegaWin. Finally got a test case.....
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:31 PM
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I could be wrong...but isn't this argument by the AG the precise reason a bulletin is needed?

Quote:
Plaintiffs have not explained how issuing a new bulletin would be more effective than the existing guide and regulations. While Plaintiffs contend that if the Department of Justice issued a bulletin it would “[e]nsure statewide compliance with the law” (FAC ¶ 34), they supply no rationale for believing this to be true. Based on the facts alleged in the First Amended Complaint, Haynie’s weapon was legal, and his arrest was improper notwithstanding the publication of regulations and a guide which explained the legality of the gun.
Even with all this, an unlawful arrest occurred. Seems to me they will do anything to keep from eating the fat crow they have coming.
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
Bottom line first. The California Department of Justice has opined in print and on the record that Bullet Buttons are legal.

Last March, CGF filed Haynie v. Pleasanton. For strategic reasons (some of which remain) we had kept this case at a low profile.

Some background. Mark Haynie was arrested February 7, 2009 by Pleasanton PD on the way back from Chabot with an OLL, bullet button correctly installed, and empty magazine well, and a cracked windshield that created the stop in the first place. He was arrested and forced to post bail of $60,000.00 ($6,000 to the bondsman out of his pocket.)

CGF successfully defended him and obtained a finding of factual innocence. We then sued Pleasanton PD and CA DOJ. The original complaint is here.

Pleasanton then offered to settle the case as to them by paying Mr. Haynie's $6000.00 is damages. CGF decided to facilitate the settlement by not insisting on it's legal fees.

We amended the complaint against The California Department of Justice basically claiming that CA DOJ has a statutory duty under a constitutional avoidance theory to inform law enforcement and the 58 DA's that AR-15 (and other) like rifles with bullet buttons conform to the law and are legal long arms in California.

Today, The California Department of Justice filed a motion to dismiss.

Here are critical excerpts (emphasis added):


I'm forced to not comment much on they "why" or "next steps" as much of the same strategic items that required some discretion in this case remain in place.

However, there is now clear evidence that the California Department of Justice opines on the record that properly installed bullet buttons with 10 round or less magazines create legal AR type firearms in California.

-Gene
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:33 PM
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Thank you.
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:33 PM
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will this help at all once the ban is lifted on "standard" capacity magazines? As in possible changes to the definition of an AW
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:38 PM
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Out****ingstanding. Reminds me that I have not made my donation to CGF for this tax year - will get on it this weekend.

It's also a good reminder why orgs like CGF can't plaster their whole strategy all over the Internet...hopefully folks will see this and grok that point...

Great work CGF!

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Old 05-06-2011, 9:43 PM
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OK, so the DOJ says that a bulletin to all LEA's and DA's in the state is pointless. I bet if they banned something or found a common gun to be illegal they would let every agency in the state know about it.

I guess we can only expect this type of bulls**t from freedom hating liars , what kills me is they're wasting our tax dollars doing this.
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:48 PM
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^^^Don't worry, they'll just tax you some more and not worry about wasting anything.
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
CGF decided to facilitate the settlement by not insisting on it's legal fees.
BTW, what's the ROM of the CGF attorney's fees in this case?

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Old 05-06-2011, 9:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
BTW, what's the ROM of the CGF attorney's fees in this case?
In the underlying criminal case CGF spent $3713.43. Obviously the civil action after has additional ongoing attorney's fees.

-Gene
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Old 05-06-2011, 9:53 PM
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Agreed!

Yes - at this point, I guess we can just print out the fricken court case and carry that around. Folks are still getting busted for their LEGAL rifles, and it's NOT LE's fault. It's DOJ's fault for being in denial about this whole winning episode of ours.

They are probably feeling like the abused spouse here - and we aren't even "abusers" - we are just folks who are pointing out, in polite language, that our "spouse" is smoking crack. . .

Remember - it's always:

WINNING for us - LOSING for them. . .

And has been that way since 2006. . .



Quote:
Originally Posted by SJgunguy24 View Post
OK, so the DOJ says that a bulletin to all LEA's and DA's in the state is pointless. I bet if they banned something or found a common gun to be illegal they would let every agency in the state know about it.

I guess we can only expect this type of bulls**t from freedom hating liars , what kills me is they're wasting our tax dollars doing this.
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  #38  
Old 05-06-2011, 9:56 PM
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hoffmang hoffmang is offline
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Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
Folks are still getting busted for their LEGAL rifles, and it's NOT LE's fault. It's DOJ's fault for being in denial about this whole winning episode of ours.
QFT.

-Gene
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  #39  
Old 05-06-2011, 9:56 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
In the underlying criminal case CGF spent $3713.43. Obviously the civil action after has additional ongoing attorney's fees.

-Gene
The civil action against the PD?
Concerning the criminal dismissal, well done!
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  #40  
Old 05-06-2011, 9:59 PM
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The civil action against the PD?
Concerning the criminal dismissal, well done!
We haven't broken the fees out on the civil side yet since the overall case is still moving. Volunteers are just happy we have the financials in order...

-Gene
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