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  #1  
Old 04-26-2011, 8:02 PM
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Default Dros started. Can I add another rifle???

I have started the Dros process for 1 rifle that I am scheduled to pick-up this Friday. Since that was done, I have another rifle that I have purchased. This is being sent to the same FFL.

If process started as 1 rifle, can I add a second to rifle? Or, do I have to start
the Dros process on the second rifle?

Any response is much appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

Drew
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Old 04-26-2011, 8:32 PM
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depends on the FFL. It is debatable whether or not the PC allows for rifles to be added to the DROS before the 4473 is finished. As such, some FFLs are willing to, and others won't. YOu'd have to ask YOUR FFL what his policy is.
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Old 04-26-2011, 11:21 PM
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Your FFL is the only person that will answer that question. I do it. Others don't.
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Old 04-27-2011, 7:50 AM
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The CA PC states that it has to be part of a single loan, transfer or sale. Adding to it later is not part of "single", yet some like to try to re-define what single is (which is where the only "debate" is). While some do it, the CA DOJ say that it is not acceptable.
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Old 04-27-2011, 8:08 AM
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not at turners
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Old 04-27-2011, 8:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
The CA PC states that it has to be part of a single loan, transfer or sale. Adding to it later is not part of "single", yet some like to try to re-define what single is (which is where the only "debate" is). While some do it, the CA DOJ say that it is not acceptable.
How long does a single sale last? Neither the DOJ nor Ken can answer that question. So I go from the federal definition that a sale concludes when the seller signs the 4473. So if you come into the shop, order a long gun and come back 7 days later and want another. That is all part of a single sale. When I sign the 4473, your single sale is over and you cannot add anymore firearms to your now closed transaction.

I have never heard of a single dealer being written up for adding long guns to a DROS, but the DOJ will claim you can't do it as they want you to spend as much money as possible on new DROSes.
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Old 04-27-2011, 9:07 AM
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Thanks for that explanation Wes.
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Old 04-27-2011, 9:41 AM
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As I have said numerous times, you can not use anything from the Feds since they don't talk about a single sale at all and a firearm transaction is different for the Feds than the State. You report the sale by submitting the DROS (Dealer Record Of Sale). You reported the sale PERIOD. If you then add a firearm, that is NOT single. Unfortunately it is true that common sense is not common. Look at the definition of the word "single" and also look at what you are saying and clearly it does not apply to two different sales of firearms done at two different times and two different days. You might be able to get away with the same day, if the person does not leave, but it is not a single sale if it involves different days AND you report the "sale", listing only one firearm.

Yes, you can often get away with it as it is hard to prove what actually happened, but that does not make it legal, nor is it wise to promote such activity on a public forum. Also, just because you have never heard of someone getting written up does not mean that it has not happened. I also don't think that it is honest (in this case) that it is just a money issue. The DOJ follows (for the most part) the laws that are created. They do not make the laws, so complain to your elected politicians about the law and get it changed.
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Old 04-27-2011, 4:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
They do not make the laws, so complain to your elected politicians about the law and get it changed.
I'd rather just keep adding long guns at will since there is no state definition of when the transaction is over. The DOJ, my customers, and I have not complained to date. We just deal with it.

If you really want to be careful, just tell the customer they are going to buy 10 guns. Then when they change their mind and only buy 2, then your DROS form will even look nice and neat. We simply just cross the number out and write the correct number.
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Old 04-28-2011, 6:17 AM
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Thanks for all the response guys. I knew I could get the info I needed.

Went to my FFL and now have an answer.

Thanks again.

Drew
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Old 04-28-2011, 10:59 AM
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Wes, you can do what you want, but you should not promote others to do what you are doing, which is putting your business at risk.
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Old 04-28-2011, 7:35 PM
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bottom line is that Wes is not the only FFL that does it. As I mentioned above, it is debatable whether or not it is prohibited. That is why the OP needed to ask his FFL to see what HIS policy was.
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Old 04-28-2011, 7:54 PM
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Take a look at the freeways and you will see a lot of people breaking the law by speeding, so saying that others do it does not mean anything. The same is true for FFLs who don't collect sales tax.

Personally, I don't see that "debatable" aspect to it. There is a 10 day waiting period after selling a firearm (look at the CA PC), so if you add a long gun just before the firearms are delivered, you have a problem. You can't really claim that two firearms sold on different days are really part of a "single" sale. The CA DOJ says no as well. Some might want to debate what the word "single" means, but it is also dishonest to try to use Federal law to promote the position when "single" is not used and a firearm transaction is clearly different.

The only aspect is that FFLs get away with it.
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Old 04-30-2011, 8:00 PM
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I have a similar question as a buyer.
Lets pick a date, Aug 1. At one dealer on that date i will begin DROS of a handgun, followed by a second handgun, and included in this order is a longgun. The dealer will do all three and schedule the dates. My question is, at what date or in what period can i buy another longgun from another dealer?
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Old 04-30-2011, 8:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesV View Post
I have a similar question as a buyer.
Lets pick a date, Aug 1. At one dealer on that date i will begin DROS of a handgun, followed by a second handgun, and included in this order is a longgun. The dealer will do all three and schedule the dates. My question is, at what date or in what period can i buy another longgun from another dealer?
There is no restriction on how many or when you may purchase long guns.
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Old 05-01-2011, 8:14 AM
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As was said, there is no limit on the number of long guns purchased. There is a limit on the number of handguns, unless you are exempt (for example. if you have a C&R FFL and CA DOJ COE or that the handgun is transferred as a PPT). If there were two handguns transferred within 30 days and neither was exempt from the 1 in 30, the second one will be rejected.

Also, you can not add a long gun to a handgun DROS (although some will claim otherwise, but all firearm transactions have to be reported and in CA each handgun is a firearm transaction and any number of non-handguns done as a single sale, loan or transfer is consider a single firearm transaction).
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Old 05-01-2011, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Also, you can not add a long gun to a handgun DROS (although some will claim otherwise, but all firearm transactions have to be reported and in CA each handgun is a firearm transaction and any number of non-handguns done as a single sale, loan or transfer is consider a single firearm transaction).
More lies. You can add long guns to a 4473 using a handgun DROS. I personally don't do it at my shop, but others have and not been busted for it. It is up to your dealer and if they don't want to do it, don't sweat them over it.
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Old 05-02-2011, 11:04 AM
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Wes, it is not a lie. You are wrong.

There is no issue adding a long gun to a 4473 as that is fine under Federal law. Read the CA PC, not in a warped manner (such as claiming that handguns are not a firearm transaction), and you will see that each firearm transaction must be reported. A firearm transaction is a handgun or any number of non-handguns that are part of a single sale, loan or transfer. So, a handgun and a long gun are two separate firearms transactions and therefore both must be reported on two separate DROS.

This can be confirmed with the CA DOJ. I have even talked to BATF agents and they also understand it, even though it is CA law and they deal with Federal law. Talk to a firearm attorney.

Wes, put up or shutup, get the Cal Guns Foundation to make a legal statement/opinion about this. Promoting illegal activity on this forum is in violation of the rules.
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Old 05-02-2011, 11:44 AM
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Cite your claims kemasa
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Wes, it is not a lie. You are wrong.

There is no issue adding a long gun to a 4473 as that is fine under Federal law. Read the CA PC, not in a warped manner (such as claiming that handguns are not a firearm transaction), and you will see that each firearm transaction must be reported. A firearm transaction is a handgun or any number of non-handguns that are part of a single sale, loan or transfer. So, a handgun and a long gun are two separate firearms transactions and therefore both must be reported on two separate DROS.
You paraphrased the PC. You did not cite it. Here are the citations which do not state what you just claimed.

Quote:
12077(d) Where the register is used, the following shall apply:
(4) One firearm transaction shall be reported on each record of sale document. For purposes of this subdivision, a "transaction" means a single sale, loan, or transfer of any number of firearms that are not handguns.
Where in that does it say a handgun or any number of non-handguns are part of a single sale? It says a transation is a single sale, loan, or transfer of any number of firearms that are not handguns. Handguns are not included, so they are not a transaction. That is the penal code talking there, not me and not Kemasa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
This can be confirmed with the CA DOJ. I have even talked to BATF agents and they also understand it, even though it is CA law and they deal with Federal law. Talk to a firearm attorney.
We have gone over this. Dana from the CA DOJ has stated it is his opinion that adding a long gun to a handgun is legal. We have hashed out in the penal code that a handgun is not a transaction. My ATF auditors have stated they have seen CA FFLs adding long guns to handgun transactions. So we can play the "so and so said it is...", but obviously we both know people on both sides of the coin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Wes, put up or shutup, get the Cal Guns Foundation to make a legal statement/opinion about this. Promoting illegal activity on this forum is in violation of the rules.
You put up. Get the Calguns Foundation to state it is illegal. Get the DOJ to put it in writing. You are the one that is so convinced it is wrong, you offer up the proof. It isn't my responsibility to do anything more than I have done in previous threads. I showed my theory and I backed it up. I then stated that my partner doesn't wish to do it so we do not add long guns to handguns. So that is up to the individual dealer to decide what to do.

If you are so correct, prove to me I am wrong. I would have no problem stating the penal code doesn't allow it if that were the case.

For those of you who haven't seen this dog and pony show before, here are some links.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=31037
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=230841
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=240302

I am sure there are more, but for those of you wanting to waste a bunch of your time reading Ken and I banter, go for it. You definitely should be wiser on this subject when you are finished.
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  #21  
Old 05-02-2011, 1:03 PM
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Wes, you are on the Board of the Calguns Foundation, it would be much easier for you to get them to make a statement on the issue.

Read the CA PC, not just the one section. Don't take things out of context.
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Old 05-02-2011, 5:02 PM
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Ok in my case, back to the dates,
Step 1. DROS one handgun and one longgun Aug 1
Step 2. DROS second handgun Sept 1 from the same dealer.

My question was, during August and the above transaction, can i buy another longgun from another dealer?

Secondarily, now reading the posts im totally confused about whether the first dealer will DROS all three in one transaction or separate DROS for each. Is there a consensus on either side of any fence?
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Old 05-02-2011, 5:17 PM
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Long guns are not limited, you can buy one every hour if you want to.

You can not DROS all three in one transaction. Two handguns and one long gun require 3 DROS (if you want to follow the law). If you are exempt from the 1 in 30, then you can do two or more handguns, one right after another, which saves some money (ie. C&R FFL & COE).

You mentioned 01-Aug and 01-Sept, that is a month apart. Are you talking about getting them and doing the paperwork all at the same time or what?
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Old 08-09-2011, 9:43 AM
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Just saw this thread. Wes, How do you get around the number of firearms stated on the CA DROS when you increase the number of firearms you have put on the 4473 after the original sale date.

DO you cancel the DROS and make your customer wait another 10 days?

Never heard of being able to increase the DROS number without recreating a new DROS.

Please let us know how this works so we can do the same thing ?
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Old 08-09-2011, 10:35 AM
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Just saw this thread. Wes, How do you get around the number of firearms stated on the CA DROS when you increase the number of firearms you have put on the 4473 after the original sale date.

DO you cancel the DROS and make your customer wait another 10 days?

Never heard of being able to increase the DROS number without recreating a new DROS.

Please let us know how this works so we can do the same thing ?
I simply cross out the number on DROS and write in the number of guns this customer is really getting. Sometimes it is more and sometimes it is less.

I don't write down any number on the 4473 until the sale is complete after the salesperson signs it.
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Old 08-09-2011, 10:54 AM
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Does Increasing the number create DOJ Scrutiny? Any case where this has been addressed here before. News to me and in a good way!!
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:33 AM
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While Wes claims to do this, you might want to look at the CA PC. Wes is claiming that the sale does not end until the firearms are delivered, but then there is the 10 day waiting period after a sale. If you ask the CA DOJ they say that it is not legal to do it.

While it is hard to get caught doing this, it is not legal to do it based on my reading of the CA PC. There are many things that are done which are not legal and it is rare for the person to get caught, but that does not mean that it is worth the risk.
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Old 08-09-2011, 7:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
While Wes claims to do this, you might want to look at the CA PC. Wes is claiming that the sale does not end until the firearms are delivered, but then there is the 10 day waiting period after a sale. If you ask the CA DOJ they say that it is not legal to do it.

While it is hard to get caught doing this, it is not legal to do it based on my reading of the CA PC. There are many things that are done which are not legal and it is rare for the person to get caught, but that does not mean that it is worth the risk.
Definitely read post 20 and the three links before you decide to do this. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...2&postcount=20

The CA DOJ says it is legal to cross out the number of long guns and put a lessor number. I wonder why they won't allow you to put a greater number?

You can also avoid this by simply putting 20 long guns on every DROS and then have every single client decide they want less.

There are a ton of ways to play this dog and pony show. The DOJ knows they don't have a leg to stand on.
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by tenpercentfirearms View Post
Definitely read post 20 and the three links before you decide to do this. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...2&postcount=20
Quote:
The CA DOJ says it is legal to cross out the number of long guns and put a lessor number. I wonder why they won't allow you to put a greater number?
Simple, because a person can decide that they don't want a firearm and it is perfectly acceptable to decide to not buy it, just like a person can decide that they don't want to buy any firearm.

Quote:
You can also avoid this by simply putting 20 long guns on every DROS and then have every single client decide they want less.
Incorrect. You are playing games and there is a reason why this is not acceptable. Do you know why? Either you should or I suspect you do and don't want to admit it.

Quote:
There are a ton of ways to play this dog and pony show. The DOJ knows they don't have a leg to stand on.
Really? Then get a known firearm attorney to give a legal opinion on this and be done with it. There are several who post on this site and who could post their opinion. If you read the CA PC you will see that the CA DOJ does have a leg to stand on with this. While I think that it is stupid and wrong, that does not change the laws. You should be able to add additional long guns and you should be able to include long guns with a handgun purchase, but the law does not allow that.

You are playing games, such as trying to claim that what the Federal law determines to be a transaction and what is allow makes a difference with respect to CA law, which is not the case. Nor is it the case that the CA BOE and what they claim is a sale, specifically when sales tax is due, applies either. The BOE is a funny case since the sale does not end until the item is delivered, yet there is a 10 day waiting period after the sale of a firearm, so how could that ever work? It is different issues.

You are basically giving false information which could cause a person to have serious problems. Considering your position with the CalGuns Foundation, I have to wonder why you would choose to do this and continue to do this. You have stated that your partner does not agree with some of the things that you promote so you don't do it, yet you continue to promote it for others.
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Old 08-10-2011, 9:47 PM
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Simple, because a person can decide that they don't want a firearm and it is perfectly acceptable to decide to not buy it, just like a person can decide that they don't want to buy any firearm.
Can't go both ways. If you can cross out a number and put less, you can cross out a number and put more.

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Incorrect. You are playing games and there is a reason why this is not acceptable. Do you know why? Either you should or I suspect you do and don't want to admit it.
Why is this not acceptable? Who decided a number should even be on the DROS? Penal Code? I think not.

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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Really? Then get a known firearm attorney to give a legal opinion on this and be done with it. There are several who post on this site and who could post their opinion. If you read the CA PC you will see that the CA DOJ does have a leg to stand on with this. While I think that it is stupid and wrong, that does not change the laws. You should be able to add additional long guns and you should be able to include long guns with a handgun purchase, but the law does not allow that.
It does or they would have arrested me already.

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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
You are playing games, such as trying to claim that what the Federal law determines to be a transaction and what is allow makes a difference with respect to CA law, which is not the case. Nor is it the case that the CA BOE and what they claim is a sale, specifically when sales tax is due, applies either. The BOE is a funny case since the sale does not end until the item is delivered, yet there is a 10 day waiting period after the sale of a firearm, so how could that ever work? It is different issues.
Federal law defines how long a transaction lasts. State law does not. I thereby follow Federal law and do not violate a non-existent state law. No problem there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
You are basically giving false information which could cause a person to have serious problems. Considering your position with the CalGuns Foundation, I have to wonder why you would choose to do this and continue to do this. You have stated that your partner does not agree with some of the things that you promote so you don't do it, yet you continue to promote it for others.
I do not give out false information. I quote penal code and make logical arguments. I further am clear that in the case of adding long guns to a handgun DROS, my partner doesn't want me to do that. It isn't worth a customer's $25 to argue with her over it. I tell others specifically not to do it either if they don't want to. I am not sure why that bothers you so. It doesn't bother me. It doesn't seem to bother anyone else.

As a board of director on the Calguns Foundation, I evaluate cases and decide what is worthy of our donors support. You have pointed my behavior on this issue to the board and they didn't ask me to stop.

I guess I will run this by a lawyer again and see if he cares this time. Not sure why he would when no one else does including the CA DOJ.
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  #31  
Old 08-11-2011, 11:25 AM
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Can't go both ways. If you can cross out a number and put less, you can cross out a number and put more.
That is funny. You say it "Can't go both ways". I am not sure of how to convince you that it can be acceptable to reduce the number, but not increase. It is common sense, but ...

Quote:
Why is this not acceptable? Who decided a number should even be on the DROS? Penal Code? I think not.
Look at the requirements for submitting a DROS. I guess you either don't bother to read what you sign or you just don't care.

It is on the document and it really does not matter who decided because it is there.

Quote:
It does or they would have arrested me already.
Incorrect. It is hard to prove. Give them a signed statement and the documentation as to what you are doing and see what happens. If you say that it is perfectly acceptable, then there is no risk to you to do this, but I know you won't do it.

Quote:
Federal law defines how long a transaction lasts. State law does not. I thereby follow Federal law and do not violate a non-existent state law. No problem there.
As I have said numerous times before, what is considered a firearm transaction under Federal saw is very different than under CA law. So, yes, there IS a problem.

Quote:
I do not give out false information. I quote penal code and make logical arguments. I further am clear that in the case of adding long guns to a handgun DROS, my partner doesn't want me to do that. It isn't worth a customer's $25 to argue with her over it. I tell others specifically not to do it either if they don't want to. I am not sure why that bothers you so. It doesn't bother me. It doesn't seem to bother anyone else.
Yes, you do give out false information. You play games with words, don't understand things (such a claiming that handguns are not a firearm transaction), try to mix up Federal law with State law, etc.

Yes, you are promoting something which you do not do, which is hypocritical to me. If you can't convince your partner, why are you trying to convince others? You said that you do it, but then you said that you don't because of your partner, so which is true?

It bothers me because others might listen to you and do it, only to get caught and have a problem and perhaps lose their business and cost them a lot of money. I don't know why you don't get something so simple.

Quote:
As a board of director on the Calguns Foundation, I evaluate cases and decide what is worthy of our donors support. You have pointed my behavior on this issue to the board and they didn't ask me to stop.
They should or they should make a public statement that it is acceptable. Perhaps they want someone to get caught so that they can try to do something about it.

Quote:
I guess I will run this by a lawyer again and see if he cares this time. Not sure why he would when no one else does including the CA DOJ.
The CA DOJ you can't do it, so I don't know why you would say that they don't care. It is really hard to catch someone. Give them all the information and see if they decide to care.

I suspect that many just ignore you on this aspect (I have been told this by some), but that is not considering what could happen to someone who listens. You should be honest and up front and say that you don't actually do it, instead of just when you get called on it.
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:37 AM
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I suspect that many just ignore you on this aspect (I have been told this by some), but that is not considering what could happen to someone who listens. You should be honest and up front and say that you don't actually do it, instead of just when you get called on it.
Show me one thread where I did not make it clear where I stand on the issues. Just one is all it takes.
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:56 AM
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I simply cross out the number on DROS and write in the number of guns this customer is really getting. Sometimes it is more and sometimes it is less.

I don't write down any number on the 4473 until the sale is complete after the salesperson signs it.
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Show me one thread where I did not make it clear where I stand on the issues. Just one is all it takes.
See above. If you don't do it because of your partner, please explain how you "simply cross out the number on DROS and write in the number of guns this customer is really getting". Also explain "Sometimes it is more and sometimes it is less" when you don't add firearms due to your partner's view on the matter. At a minimum, this is deceptive, which amounts to making false statements.

Yes, after it is pointed out what you actually do, you admit it, so it is not possible to point to a thread, but your first post in this thread on the subject you don't make it clear where you stand on the issue. This is one, so is that all it takes or are you going to make up an excuse and claim because you later said the truth that it does not count?
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Old 08-11-2011, 12:10 PM
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See above. If you don't do it because of your partner, please explain how you "simply cross out the number on DROS and write in the number of guns this customer is really getting". Also explain "Sometimes it is more and sometimes it is less" when you don't add firearms due to your partner's view on the matter. At a minimum, this is deceptive, which amounts to making false statements.

Yes, after it is pointed out what you actually do, you admit it, so it is not possible to point to a thread, but your first post in this thread on the subject you don't make it clear where you stand on the issue. This is one, so is that all it takes or are you going to make up an excuse and claim because you later said the truth that it does not count?
As usual, you are confused. I cross out the number on long gun DROS and put the correct number. It is is more, fine. If it is less, fine. I add additional long guns prior to signing the 4473. My partner has zero issues with that. As I have stated before publicly for the DOJ to read, we do that.

What my partner does not want me to do is add long guns onto a handgun DROS. So that is the one you are looking for, but won't find.

Again, what does this have to do with the penal code? Nothing. Just more of your hand wringing trying to catch me up on something that isn't there because your position in the penal code isn't defensible.

Anyway, I just e-mailed my lawyer. We will see what he says. Don't hold your breathe as it is probably going to be just as slow as the last time I asked.
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  #35  
Old 08-11-2011, 12:20 PM
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No, Wes, I am not confused.

Actually, it does have something to do with the penal code since there are requirements there. You don't want to understand that if you sell a firearm on Monday, then sell another one on Friday, it is not part of a single sale and that even if it was, you would have to wait 10 days after the sale on Friday, as required by the CA PC. You also have a problem with understanding the word "single", which the Federal law does not discuss, but that is best ignored so that your can try to keep your position.

What did he say the last time you asked?

Oh, no comment about what you sign?
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Old 08-11-2011, 12:35 PM
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No, Wes, I am not confused.

Actually, it does have something to do with the penal code since there are requirements there. You don't want to understand that if you sell a firearm on Monday, then sell another one on Friday, it is not part of a single sale and that even if it was, you would have to wait 10 days after the sale on Friday, as required by the CA PC.
The penal code in qestion.

Quote:
12071(b)(3) No firearm shall be delivered:
(A) Within 10 days of the application to purchase, or, after notice by the department pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 12076, within 10 days of the submission to the department of any correction to the application, or within 10 days of the submission to the department of any fee required pursuant to subdivision (e) of Section 12076, whichever is later.
Let's break it down into three chunks.

Quote:
(A) Within 10 days of the application to purchase, or, after notice by the department pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 12076,
Quote:
within 10 days of the submission to the department of any correction to the application
Quote:
or within 10 days of the submission to the department of any fee required pursuant to subdivision (e) of Section 12076, whichever is later.
So part one, the customer applies to purchase. It doesn't say anything about being limited to the number you applied for. It just says applies to purchase. We are in the clear there.

Part two, if I don't submit any corrections to the application, then I don't have to wait ten more days. This however, is a great question because if you submit a DROS correction on a handgun, does that mean the 10 days has to re-start? That is an interesting can of worms.

So to get around this I simply cross out the incorrect data and keep it on file. No submission, no restart of the ten days.

Part three, the fee goes in at the start of the ten days so we are clear there as well.

The only space for your argument is when I submit a correction to the application. However, that means a whole lot of people are violating this one in changing the DROS online. We need to go look up that code some more. If I don't submit the changes, then I am not bound to the new ten days.

We will also have to read up on the requirements for errors, corrections, or just plain changes.

Work on it kemasa and let us know what you find. I'll look later today. I gotta get down to the shop.
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Old 08-11-2011, 1:08 PM
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There are also other PC sections as well. There is the SINGLE sale aspect, which you want to look at in strange ways. As I said, get a known firearms attorney to give a legal opinion on it which hold to what you claim and then you might have something. Get it in writing.
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Old 08-11-2011, 3:01 PM
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There are also other PC sections as well. There is the SINGLE sale aspect, which you want to look at in strange ways. As I said, get a known firearms attorney to give a legal opinion on it which hold to what you claim and then you might have something. Get it in writing.
I'll ask one final time. Where in the penal code does it defnite how long a single sale lasts? And for one final time, you tell me it isn't in there and generally the DOJ thinks it is a day, but it could be until they walk out the door, but it also could be a week, or it could be anything under 30 days. There is no state definition of how long a single sale lasts. Only Federal.
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Old 08-11-2011, 3:25 PM
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Go look at a dictionary and stop playing games. Quite clearly singles does not mean multiple and that is what you are trying to claim that it is. It could not be a week nor anything over a day, at the most. The problem is that if you get charged, you are going to be laughed at if you try to make those claims in court. No reasonable person would say that selling two different firearms on two different days is a single sale.

Let's reverse it, where do you claim that single can be anything other than the dictionary definition or be over 1 day, at the most? You keep trying to use the Federal law, but that is bogus. I could ask you where many things are defined in the PC since there are many things which are not because it is assumed that words have common meanings. If they did what you want, the PC would be infinite in size and length as they would have to define everything six ways from Sunday.

Don't play games, don't make things worse. If you look at the changes with the PPT, you will see those changes came because of the abuse. Do you really want each and every firearm to have to be submitted on a separate DROS?

Why don't you take a poll and ask how many people think it is legal, not just that they think that they can get away with it?
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:50 PM
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Go look at a dictionary and stop playing games. Quite clearly singles does not mean multiple and that is what you are trying to claim that it is. It could not be a week nor anything over a day, at the most. The problem is that if you get charged, you are going to be laughed at if you try to make those claims in court. No reasonable person would say that selling two different firearms on two different days is a single sale.
Actually, many, many people do. In fact, the Feds say a single sale lasts until the 4473 is signed. So a single sale could last up to 30 days.

Quote:
Let's reverse it, where do you claim that single can be anything other than the dictionary definition or be over 1 day, at the most? You keep trying to use the Federal law, but that is bogus. I could ask you where many things are defined in the PC since there are many things which are not because it is assumed that words have common meanings. If they did what you want, the PC would be infinite in size and length as they would have to define everything six ways from Sunday.
Again, a single sale of multiple long guns can happen over a series of days. Until money is finished changing hands and the paperwork is closed, the sale isn't over. It is pretty common in the business world. A guy brings in a tractor for maintenance. You might sell him a part on one day, find out he needs another part another day, and then finish it up on the fourth day. He pays one bill for several different items bought over a few days. It really is pretty simple.

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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Don't play games, don't make things worse. If you look at the changes with the PPT, you will see those changes came because of the abuse. Do you really want each and every firearm to have to be submitted on a separate DROS?
The classic, "Don't wake he sleeping giant" argument. If I upset our masters, then they might take it away from us. Ok, I am totally screwing with you. Please don't even respond.

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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Why don't you take a poll and ask how many people think it is legal, not just that they think that they can get away with it?
Your poll got shut down before. Start it again. I won't comment in it. I will just cast my vote. Make sure to keep the voting anonymous. Your poll means nothing, but if it makes you feel better.
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