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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 04-26-2011, 1:23 PM
glock22fs glock22fs is offline
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Default Online ammo retailer refusing to ship to ventura county

I need some help from some people who can call up seven springs armory in arizona and explain that it is not illegal for them to sell ammo to ventura county residents.

I wanted to buy some ammo from them online so I did what I always do as a resident of Kalifornia and looked at their shipping policies. Low and behold they say on their website they will not ship to CA. They have good prices so instead of finding my ammo elsewhere I called them and asked why and was told they do sell ammo to some parts of CA. When I told him I live in Ventura he said there is a municipal code in ventura county which prohibits them from selling ammo to ventura residents. I know this is not true and tried to explain that to them but they were adamant that there was. I am hoping someone with a deeper understanding of the law can explain the real laws to them

Thanks
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Old 04-26-2011, 1:26 PM
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condor reserve + FUD = get another source of ammo.
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  #3  
Old 04-26-2011, 1:30 PM
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What are you ordering? There is a group buy going on for pistol ammo in commercial sales. There are various other vendors to go to. Their loss.....
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Old 04-26-2011, 1:45 PM
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Just some 45. I am going to stay with factory loads for this order as it is going to be used to break in a new toy i should be getting in a bit. Also I am going to be out of SoCal for a while so I cant really participate in the group buy.

I am going to end up buying from someone else but I feel we should educate these people. They're not refusing to sell ammo to me maliciously, they are just confused by California's crazy laws and dont want to expose themselves to any legal liability. Why not educate them and have them stop spreading FUD?
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Old 04-26-2011, 6:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glock22fs View Post
I need some help from some people who can call up seven springs armory in arizona and explain that it is not illegal for them to sell ammo to ventura county residents.

I wanted to buy some ammo from them online so I did what I always do as a resident of Kalifornia and looked at their shipping policies. Low and behold they say on their website they will not ship to CA. They have good prices so instead of finding my ammo elsewhere I called them and asked why and was told they do sell ammo to some parts of CA. When I told him I live in Ventura he said there is a municipal code in ventura county which prohibits them from selling ammo to ventura residents. I know this is not true and tried to explain that to them but they were adamant that there was. I am hoping someone with a deeper understanding of the law can explain the real laws to them

Thanks
Sir,

I appreciate that you are passionate about helping bring good prices on ammo to the residents of California and Ventura. I would however ask that you edit a few of your statements.

What my website plainly says on the first page and in all our policies is that yes we will sell to CA residents. What we won't do is sell to residents of specific counties and cities. You being a resident of Ventura are in one of those counties. Ventura does has a municipal code which potentially exposes me to criminal/civil liabilities.

Furthermore, I told you that I am not a large corporation like some of my competition and I am unwilling to face the risks like some of them are. I additionally informed you that unlike some of my competition I am not willing to face the potentiality of some gung-ho DA in Ventura who wants to make a name for him/herself by having a warrant issued for my arrest for non-compliance with the Ventura code.

I find it offensive that you would encourage people to call me and waste my time with banter about how it isn't illegal when the likelihood of those callers being Bar Members in the State of California much less Ventura is slim; that the likelihood that I will change my policy prior to Ventura County pulling their head out of the sand slim; that you are wasting time. I do however encourage you to contact your County Board Members and encourage them change the law, voicing your opinion and encouraging others to voice their opinion to the politicians will go much further than wasting time on pointless banter with somebody who thinks just like you for the most part.

I do take it as a compliment that you want to purchase ammo from me insomuch as our prices are extremely competitive and to that end I say thank you.

Best regards,

Bryan
Managing Partner
Seven Springs Armory LLC
www.sevenspringsarmory.com
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  #6  
Old 04-26-2011, 7:16 PM
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See
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=155514

and
http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-5.pdf
Search for Ventura. It's not even mentioned.

Somewhere somebody planted a rumor and it took. Win for the anti-gunners. This unsourced rumor has a few gun retailers scared. Failing my suggestion that Calguns put out the official word on legal letterhead, there's nothing anybody can do about it except take money elsewhere.

I would like to see the exact civil code(s) that have these guys running scared; nobody has EVER been able to cite those. If we could see those, then we could say, yes, we understand. Without that, it sounds like "He violated the Unwritten Law!" (what's that?) (nobody knows, it's not written down anywhere).

Last edited by Wernher von Browning; 04-26-2011 at 7:22 PM..
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  #7  
Old 04-26-2011, 7:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glock22fs View Post
I wanted to buy some ammo from them online...
Yes, what are you ordering? (Exact brand, type, caliber, number of rounds). Chances are I can find a competitive, if not cheaper, retailer who is willing to ship to you.
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Old 04-26-2011, 7:32 PM
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any reasonable quality (Federal, Remington, Winchester, PMC, Speer, S&B, etc)
45 acp
standard 230 gr ball
1000 rounds

I have found a few places, but with shipping to Kali it a good bit pricier
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Old 04-26-2011, 7:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenspringsarmory View Post
What my website plainly says on the first page and in all our policies is that yes we will sell to CA residents. What we won't do is sell to residents of specific counties and cities. You being a resident of Ventura are in one of those counties. Ventura does has a municipal code which potentially exposes me to criminal/civil liabilities.
can you post this municipal code you talk about?
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Old 04-26-2011, 7:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenspringsarmory View Post
Sir,

I appreciate that you are passionate about helping bring good prices on ammo to the residents of California and Ventura. I would however ask that you edit a few of your statements.

What my website plainly says on the first page and in all our policies is that yes we will sell to CA residents. What we won't do is sell to residents of specific counties and cities. You being a resident of Ventura are in one of those counties. Ventura does has a municipal code which potentially exposes me to criminal/civil liabilities.

Furthermore, I told you that I am not a large corporation like some of my competition and I am unwilling to face the risks like some of them are. I additionally informed you that unlike some of my competition I am not willing to face the potentiality of some gung-ho DA in Ventura who wants to make a name for him/herself by having a warrant issued for my arrest for non-compliance with the Ventura code.

I find it offensive that you would encourage people to call me and waste my time with banter about how it isn't illegal when the likelihood of those callers being Bar Members in the State of California much less Ventura is slim; that the likelihood that I will change my policy prior to Ventura County pulling their head out of the sand slim; that you are wasting time. I do however encourage you to contact your County Board Members and encourage them change the law, voicing your opinion and encouraging others to voice their opinion to the politicians will go much further than wasting time on pointless banter with somebody who thinks just like you for the most part.

I do take it as a compliment that you want to purchase ammo from me insomuch as our prices are extremely competitive and to that end I say thank you.

Best regards,

Bryan
Managing Partner
Seven Springs Armory LLC
www.sevenspringsarmory.com
Bryan, I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say that we appreciate you coming here and explaining your policy. However I believe your assertion to be incorrect. There is apparently some confusion that some companies have had regarding some of California's stranger laws regarding possession of lead ammunition which has led a few smaller outfits to believe shipping to Ventura to be regulated.

I recognize that you are a small company, smaller than Midway, Cabelas, Bass Pro Shops, maybe Natchezzs, Powder Valley, Ammoman, Ables, etc. But to say that they are willing to take bigger risks than you seems to be saying that they are knowingly violating a municipal code and knowingly risking being caught. Some of the bigger companies, Midway, Cabelas, and Bass Pro all have legal departments who would certainly advise them on issues like this. Do you really think that they would knowingly violate the law? The profit made by selling to ammunition to Ventura county certainly wouldn't offset the huge liability of knowingly breaking the law (if one existed.)

I mean no insult, but its a bit foolhardy to think that just because a company is big means it would knowingly violate a law. Certainly the bigger ones could afford the legal penalties, but the small amount of profit realized by selling to any particular county does not outweigh that risk and they know it. The only logical conclusion is that they know of no municipal code.
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Last edited by Connor P Price; 04-26-2011 at 7:38 PM..
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  #11  
Old 04-26-2011, 7:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glock22fs View Post
any reasonable quality (Federal, Remington, Winchester, PMC, Speer, S&B, etc)
45 acp
standard 230 gr ball
1000 rounds

I have found a few places, but with shipping to Kali it a good bit pricier
CCI/Speer starts at 31 cents a round.
lowest priced PMC is 34 cents.
Shipping, you'll have to go through the individual dealers' listings to make sure they'll ship to you, and at what price.

Sending private e-mail with links.
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  #12  
Old 04-26-2011, 7:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenspringsarmory View Post
Sir,

I appreciate that you are passionate about helping bring good prices on ammo to the residents of California and Ventura. I would however ask that you edit a few of your statements.

What my website plainly says on the first page and in all our policies is that yes we will sell to CA residents. What we won't do is sell to residents of specific counties and cities. You being a resident of Ventura are in one of those counties. Ventura does has a municipal code which potentially exposes me to criminal/civil liabilities.

Furthermore, I told you that I am not a large corporation like some of my competition and I am unwilling to face the risks like some of them are. I additionally informed you that unlike some of my competition I am not willing to face the potentiality of some gung-ho DA in Ventura who wants to make a name for him/herself by having a warrant issued for my arrest for non-compliance with the Ventura code.

I find it offensive that you would encourage people to call me and waste my time with banter about how it isn't illegal when the likelihood of those callers being Bar Members in the State of California much less Ventura is slim; that the likelihood that I will change my policy prior to Ventura County pulling their head out of the sand slim; that you are wasting time. I do however encourage you to contact your County Board Members and encourage them change the law, voicing your opinion and encouraging others to voice their opinion to the politicians will go much further than wasting time on pointless banter with somebody who thinks just like you for the most part.

I do take it as a compliment that you want to purchase ammo from me insomuch as our prices are extremely competitive and to that end I say thank you.

Best regards,

Bryan
Managing Partner
Seven Springs Armory LLC
www.sevenspringsarmory.com
Your referring to AB821. Your excuse is laughable.
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Old 04-26-2011, 8:11 PM
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sevenspringsarmory,

Let me just say I am not trying to bad mouth your business or waste your time. I am not really sure how to prove that something doesn't exist other than suggesting you look through the Muni codes like I have and see there is nothing in them which references ammunition. The only real references to firearms regard discharge. I hope you can take the time to look through the codes that there is nothing prohibiting you selling ammunition to Ventura.

Ventura Municipal Codes
http://www.municode.com/library/clie...clientID=10165
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Last edited by glock22fs; 04-26-2011 at 8:14 PM.. Reason: additional info
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Old 04-26-2011, 8:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenspringsarmory View Post
Sir,

I appreciate that you are passionate about helping bring good prices on ammo to the residents of California and Ventura. I would however ask that you edit a few of your statements.

What my website plainly says on the first page and in all our policies is that yes we will sell to CA residents. What we won't do is sell to residents of specific counties and cities. You being a resident of Ventura are in one of those counties. Ventura does has a municipal code which potentially exposes me to criminal/civil liabilities.

Furthermore, I told you that I am not a large corporation like some of my competition and I am unwilling to face the risks like some of them are. I additionally informed you that unlike some of my competition I am not willing to face the potentiality of some gung-ho DA in Ventura who wants to make a name for him/herself by having a warrant issued for my arrest for non-compliance with the Ventura code.

I find it offensive that you would encourage people to call me and waste my time with banter about how it isn't illegal when the likelihood of those callers being Bar Members in the State of California much less Ventura is slim; that the likelihood that I will change my policy prior to Ventura County pulling their head out of the sand slim; that you are wasting time. I do however encourage you to contact your County Board Members and encourage them change the law, voicing your opinion and encouraging others to voice their opinion to the politicians will go much further than wasting time on pointless banter with somebody who thinks just like you for the most part.

I do take it as a compliment that you want to purchase ammo from me insomuch as our prices are extremely competitive and to that end I say thank you.

Best regards,

Bryan
Managing Partner
Seven Springs Armory LLC
www.sevenspringsarmory.com
As was noted by another poster, effective July 1, 2008 AB 821 prohibited the possession of lead core ammunition while hunting in areas considered to be habitat for the California Condor. This regulation impacts only those who are hunting (who must have lead free bullets in both their hunting weapon AND their sidearm). The regulation does not address the purchase or sale of ammunition, nor would it affect someone carrying a concealed firearm while hiking (so long as they are not hunting) or someone with a self-defense firearm on their campsite - assuming, of course, that they are following all other applicable laws.

To the very best of my knowledge neither Ventura County nor any incorporated city within the county has an ordinance prohibiting the possession, importation, sale or purchase of ammunition in person, mail order or online. The only thing Ventura County did was have the misfortune to exist within condor habitat. I have lived in this state for the better part of the last 28 years and in Ventura County for most of that; it is possible, albeit extremely unlikely, such an ordinance was passed at some point - which would make the inclusion of State Ammunition (a business in the city of Ventura) as one of the plaintiffs in one of the recent cases challenging AB 962 (the recently overturned statewide ban on mail order handgun ammunition) particularly ironic.

So far I have not been significantly impacted by this misapprehension as I have been content to wait for Ammoman to advertise a sale in a caliber I'm interested in, but if I ever find myself in a position to want to obtain a large amount of the cheapest ammunition I can find right now, it's going to really irk me to still have this going on.

And there isn't a darn thing we can do about it; sorry, I'm not golfing buddies with Greg Totten.

Ryan
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Last edited by socal2310; 04-26-2011 at 8:37 PM.. Reason: Added the actual designation of the law in question.
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  #15  
Old 04-26-2011, 8:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glock22fs View Post
sevenspringsarmory,

Let me just say I am not trying to bad mouth your business or waste your time. I am not really sure how to prove that something doesn't exist other than suggesting you look through the Muni codes like I have and see there is nothing in them which references ammunition. The only real references to firearms regard discharge. I hope you can take the time to look through the codes that there is nothing prohibiting you selling ammunition to Ventura.

Ventura Municipal Codes
http://www.municode.com/library/clie...clientID=10165
Which shows that there is exactly one regulation concerning ammunition - a zoning requirement concerning the manufacture of ammunition.

Ryan
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Old 04-26-2011, 8:26 PM
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socal2310

thanks for picking that one up I must have missed it
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Old 04-26-2011, 8:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenspringsarmory View Post
Ventura does has a municipal code which potentially exposes me to criminal/civil liabilities.

I do however encourage you to contact your County Board Members and encourage them change the law
Which law?

Quote:
wasting time on pointless banter with somebody who thinks just like you for the most part.
I agree. Let's work on figuring out which law you would like us to get changed and/or struck unconstitutional instead of arguing.
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  #18  
Old 04-26-2011, 9:40 PM
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Drop him, go somewhere else and tell all your Friends to go somewhere else.

This is the same as us going to a website who's sole purpose is the firearms laws in his State of Arizona, and tell him I know more about their laws then they do.
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Old 04-26-2011, 9:56 PM
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Cool, another vendor on my avoid list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by socal2310 View Post
And there isn't a darn thing we can do about it; sorry, I'm not golfing buddies with Greg Totten.
I worked with him for a while, and am on good terms. Cool guy, but still nothing you can do about a law that doesn't exist.
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Old 04-26-2011, 10:34 PM
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I just received my first order from SGammo.com. Fast shipping, Calgunner friendly, great prices. Check them out!

http://www.sgammo.com/
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  #21  
Old 04-26-2011, 11:07 PM
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Folks, we NEED to get the word out to retailers. And not just from us nutcases nattering away here in the trenches; it has to be from somebody in a suit, on letterhead.

And then those who still won't ship even when they are perfectly within the law to ship, need to be put on a Calguns disapproved list. And then we in the community need to take our business elsewhere, even those folks in counties where they will ship.
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Old 04-26-2011, 11:24 PM
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It really sucks that ammunition venders would make a claim like that without backing it up with atleast a penal code. Total Bull. Take your money elsewhere. Most ammo venders dont make you call them to prove to them that what your doing is legal. Last month I had 24 pounds of ammunition delivered straight to my doorstep without any problem (copes destributing).
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Old 04-27-2011, 6:05 AM
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Bryan,

You need to fire your lawyer, or whoever it was that convinced you that you cannot sell and/or ship ammunition to Ventura County.

I have lived in Ventura County for years, and have been buying ammo online since Al Gore invented the internet.

However, if you want to pass-up a sales opportunity, that is certainly your right.

Best Regards,

Sawdust

Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenspringsarmory View Post
Sir,

I appreciate that you are passionate about helping bring good prices on ammo to the residents of California and Ventura. I would however ask that you edit a few of your statements.

What my website plainly says on the first page and in all our policies is that yes we will sell to CA residents. What we won't do is sell to residents of specific counties and cities. You being a resident of Ventura are in one of those counties. Ventura does has a municipal code which potentially exposes me to criminal/civil liabilities.

Furthermore, I told you that I am not a large corporation like some of my competition and I am unwilling to face the risks like some of them are. I additionally informed you that unlike some of my competition I am not willing to face the potentiality of some gung-ho DA in Ventura who wants to make a name for him/herself by having a warrant issued for my arrest for non-compliance with the Ventura code.

I find it offensive that you would encourage people to call me and waste my time with banter about how it isn't illegal when the likelihood of those callers being Bar Members in the State of California much less Ventura is slim; that the likelihood that I will change my policy prior to Ventura County pulling their head out of the sand slim; that you are wasting time. I do however encourage you to contact your County Board Members and encourage them change the law, voicing your opinion and encouraging others to voice their opinion to the politicians will go much further than wasting time on pointless banter with somebody who thinks just like you for the most part.

I do take it as a compliment that you want to purchase ammo from me insomuch as our prices are extremely competitive and to that end I say thank you.

Best regards,

Bryan
Managing Partner
Seven Springs Armory LLC
www.sevenspringsarmory.com
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  #24  
Old 04-27-2011, 6:26 AM
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Just go buy your ammo somewhere else. I don't see why the big hoopla over whether the guy wants to sell or not sell ammo to someone. There are plenty of vendors who gladly will take your money in trade for ammo. if this guy cannot figure out/doesn't want to sell to a certain geographical area in California that its completely legal for him to sell you ammo then that's his loss.
Let him figure out the potential loss in sales and I bet the policy changes pretty quickly.
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Old 04-27-2011, 6:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob454 View Post
Just go buy your ammo somewhere else. I don't see why the big hoopla over whether the guy wants to sell or not sell ammo to someone. There are plenty of vendors who gladly will take your money in trade for ammo. if this guy cannot figure out/doesn't want to sell to a certain geographical area in California that its completely legal for him to sell you ammo then that's his loss.
Let him figure out the potential loss in sales and I bet the policy changes pretty quickly.
part of this is principle. He's not the first vendor to claim that they can't ship to Ventura. They point to some municipal code that nobody knows about. However, it is thought that many of these vendors just follow the pack with regards to where they will and will not ship to.

One vendor gets mistaken and thinks that they can't ship to Ventura, they list that as a shipping restriction. Another vendor, too lazy to research the laws himself, just copies the first vendor's restrricitons. And then a third vendor, look up shipping restrictions sees that two other vendors won't ship to Ventura, jumps on board and pretty soon many/most vendors say they won't ship to Ventura, even though it may be perfectly legal to do so.
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Old 04-27-2011, 7:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
part of this is principle. He's not the first vendor to claim that they can't ship to Ventura. They point to some municipal code that nobody knows about. However, it is thought that many of these vendors just follow the pack with regards to where they will and will not ship to.

One vendor gets mistaken and thinks that they can't ship to Ventura, they list that as a shipping restriction. Another vendor, too lazy to research the laws himself, just copies the first vendor's restrricitons. And then a third vendor, look up shipping restrictions sees that two other vendors won't ship to Ventura, jumps on board and pretty soon many/most vendors say they won't ship to Ventura, even though it may be perfectly legal to do so.
The FUD has to do with California Law AB 821. This law banned using lead centerfire bullets when hunting in a California Condor zone (includes part of Ventura County). I believe this was later extended to 22 rimfire as well.

The confusion is that the sale of lead bullets in Ventura County are not banned. However certain large retailers such as Cheaper Than Dirt or Sportman's Exchange think they are and other retailers copy their prohibitions. That's the problem.
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  #27  
Old 04-27-2011, 7:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Rob454 View Post
Just go buy your ammo somewhere else. I don't see why the big hoopla over whether the guy wants to sell or not sell ammo to someone. There are plenty of vendors who gladly will take your money in trade for ammo. if this guy cannot figure out/doesn't want to sell to a certain geographical area in California that its completely legal for him to sell you ammo then that's his loss.
Let him figure out the potential loss in sales and I bet the policy changes pretty quickly.
The "big hoopla" is that it's not just one vendor. As ke6guj says in the next post, one starts it, others follow, and pretty soon our choices of vendors are restricted, there is less competition, prices go up. Then it gets worse. No shipping of guns to CA. Gun parts. Anything. The antis win by default.

I believe in the power of the free market, and also in the power of the boycott. If a vendor won't sell some items to some CA locations, even though it is completely legal to do so, I feel that not only should all Californians in that location boycott that seller for all items (even if it costs a little more to go elsewhere), but also that ALL California customers, even in locations where they ship freely, should shun that seller.

If we don't do this, they'll never have an incentive to look for the laws themselves instead of following a herd.
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Old 04-27-2011, 8:04 AM
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This guy will not come back, he doesn't care about residents of Ventura, or that he flat out lied about some " municipal code" that does not exist.

Shame you on "Bryan", I would say the thing for us as consumers now, is to get the word out not to buy from your 'company'. Let the money talk for us, and remind you, that you are supported by your customers, not the other way around.
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Old 04-27-2011, 8:36 AM
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Jumping on the boycott wagon isn't the way to fix things like this. If vendors were acting maliciously I'd be right with you all, but its clear that they aren't out to hurt us, they are just misinformed. The better path is to educate them, we benefit because we have a greater pool of vendors to deal with, they benefit because they have more customers to sell to, so its a net gain for the shooting community and the anti's haven't beat us. If we have to keep boycotting all sorts of businesses that should be on our side then we've lost. We'd have less choice, vendors would have less business, and the anti's stupid laws would have won.
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Old 04-27-2011, 8:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Connor P Price View Post
Jumping on the boycott wagon isn't the way to fix things like this. If vendors were acting maliciously I'd be right with you all, but its clear that they aren't out to hurt us, they are just misinformed.
Misinformed is one thing. Intentionally staying misinformed and then saying that attempts to educate is a "waste of time" as seen by their own quote below. . . that's beyond just simply "misinformed".

Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenspringsarmory
I find it offensive that you would encourage people to call me and waste my time with banter about how it isn't illegal when the likelihood of those callers being Bar Members in the State of California much less Ventura is slim; that the likelihood that I will change my policy prior to Ventura County pulling their head out of the sand slim; that you are wasting time. I do however encourage you to contact your County Board Members and encourage them change the law, voicing your opinion and encouraging others to voice their opinion to the politicians will go much further than wasting time on pointless banter with somebody who thinks just like you for the most part.
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Old 04-27-2011, 9:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Connor P Price View Post
Jumping on the boycott wagon isn't the way to fix things like this. If vendors were acting maliciously I'd be right with you all, but its clear that they aren't out to hurt us, they are just misinformed. The better path is to educate them, we benefit because we have a greater pool of vendors to deal with, they benefit because they have more customers to sell to, so its a net gain for the shooting community and the anti's haven't beat us. If we have to keep boycotting all sorts of businesses that should be on our side then we've lost. We'd have less choice, vendors would have less business, and the anti's stupid laws would have won.
And that's what I've been saying. Read farther up. Somebody from Calguns with some au-thor-i-tay (a lawyer for example) needs to contact these people and inform them of the facts. If, after that, they STILL refuse to ship, THEN it's time to boycott. At present they are just misinformed.

I would like to find out who started the misinformation.

Clearly these guys are copying FUD from somewhere -- I saw one seller who refuses to ship to "Loyo County." Where???

"Being on our side" -- that's a two-way street. No, I don't think we should antagonize them, and some of the posters here have started down that road already. The retailers are in a misguided effort to protect themselves. If, after being informed of the facts, they still don't want to bother, then, we don't owe them any loyalty either -- collectively, as an entire state. That is when we reward the ones who really are "on our side" and withhold rewards from those who aren't.
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Old 04-27-2011, 9:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor P Price View Post
Jumping on the boycott wagon isn't the way to fix things like this. If vendors were acting maliciously I'd be right with you all, but its clear that they aren't out to hurt us, they are just misinformed. The better path is to educate them, we benefit because we have a greater pool of vendors to deal with, they benefit because they have more customers to sell to, so its a net gain for the shooting community and the anti's haven't beat us. If we have to keep boycotting all sorts of businesses that should be on our side then we've lost. We'd have less choice, vendors would have less business, and the anti's stupid laws would have won.
Wrong,

If we boycott places that do not fall in line, then they go away, and the ones left behind see more sales, meaning more profit, meaning more likely to back us up in a fight aganst the anti side.

In this case you have a vender that is at best blind to the truth, at worst outright lieing to people. That right there is a good case for a boycott by everyone we can get the word out to.
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Old 04-27-2011, 9:05 AM
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Misinformed is one thing. Intentionally staying misinformed and then saying that attempts to educate is a "waste of time" as seen by their own quote below. . . that's beyond just simply "misinformed".
Agree 100%.
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Old 04-27-2011, 9:06 AM
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Wrong,

In this case you have a vender that is at best blind to the truth, at worst outright lieing to people. That right there is a good case for a boycott by everyone we can get the word out to.

I think they all need to be given a chance to fix the situation. Only then, regrettably, do they face a boycott.

They need to be informed first. Legal eagles, are you watching this? Anybody?
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Old 04-27-2011, 9:11 AM
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Misinformed is one thing. Intentionally staying misinformed and then saying that attempts to educate is a "waste of time" as seen by their own quote below. . . that's beyond just simply "misinformed".
Seriously, read that section again:

Quote:
that the likelihood that I will change my policy prior to Ventura County pulling their head out of the sand slim; that you are wasting time. I do however encourage you to contact your County Board Members and encourage them change the law, voicing your opinion and encouraging others to voice their opinion to the politicians will go much further than wasting time on pointless banter with somebody who thinks just like you for the most part.
He's effectively insisting that he won't ship to Ventura County unless it passes an ordinance to overrule or repeal another ordinance that doesn't even exist. I imagine the board of supervisors has more important things to do, like making life miserable for developers.

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Old 04-27-2011, 9:15 AM
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Misinformed is one thing. Intentionally staying misinformed and then saying that attempts to educate is a "waste of time" as seen by their own quote below. . . that's beyond just simply "misinformed".
He made one post. One clearly misinformed post, albeit a bit arrogant in his belief that he somehow knows more than the entire Calguns community along with the biggest ammo vendors in the country. Most likely he'll never come back, because the only thing that could prove his point would be citing a muni code. Doing so would be as shocking to me as somebody bringing me bigfoot's carcass, you just can't produce evidence of something that doesn't exist.

Its a darn shame, but I think anyone should be given a greater chance than one misguided post. At least give the opportunity to explain oneself a bit further or even stop abiding by a law that has never existed.
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  #37  
Old 04-27-2011, 9:26 AM
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I agree with the others in that you should stay with vendors that understand the law and CHOOSE to do business with California.
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Old 04-27-2011, 9:28 AM
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Originally Posted by socal2310 View Post
He's effectively insisting that he won't ship to Ventura County unless it passes an ordinance to overrule or repeal another ordinance that doesn't even exist. I imagine the board of supervisors has more important things to do, like making life miserable for developers.

Ryan
And that's exactly my point. Retailer from the OP is choosing not to engage in a dialog to clear up misinformation. Whether the intent is self-preservation or malicious is irrelevant. It takes two to tango, and it sounds like they don't feel the need to cooperate.
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  #39  
Old 04-27-2011, 9:54 AM
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Everything that can be said to and by that one seller, "Seven Springs Armory," has been said. Failing some message from on high (lawyers, other retailers) that trumps whatever FUD he's consumed, he won't budge.

Moving along... let's start collecting info on what sellers won't ship to all / some CA locations, so the legal eagles can have a list of who needs to be schooled.

Remember that there are indeed SOME valid restrictions, places where they can't ship -- but also plenty of places where retailers CAN ship, but some don't. It's those that need to be informed.

From random poking on the Internet, I submit these. But, surely there are bigger, better-known names?
Samco.
https://www.samcoglobal.com/FAQ.html#shipping
CALIFORNIA CUSTOMERS: No sales of M59/66 and M59/66A1 SKS and High Capacity magazines. C & R holders may purchase C & R rifles only if made prior to 1957 regardless if the rifle appears on the federal C & R list. No sales of M59 SKS to C & R holders. All CA dealers are required to provide their CFD# before ordering. No sales of Ammunition Delivered to Los Angeles, Oakland, Sacramento, all of Orange County or San Francisco, and Counties including Napa, Ventura, and Yolo..

(Note date of 1957. Tells you how long this hasn't been updated).

FiveSevenAmmo
http://www.fivesevenammo.com/shop/page4.html
No sales to ... San Francisco, Tiburon, Carson, Santa Ana, Los Angeles, Richmond, Berkeley, Sacramento, Oakland, CA, nor Orange, Marin, Loyo, Contra Costa, Napa counties in CA. ...Check your local laws before ordering. No exceptions to this policy.

Appollo Bullet Corp.
http://www.appollobulletcorporation.com/shipping.html
# Los Angeles, CA - No Ammo Sales
# Orange County, CA - No Ammo Sales
# San Francisco, CA - No Ammo Sales
# Sacramanto, CA - No Ammo Sales


(I know the OC restriction is just flat wrong; others, don't know).

More? Let's have 'em...

Last edited by Wernher von Browning; 04-27-2011 at 10:01 AM..
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Old 04-27-2011, 10:32 AM
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Samco won't sell Yugo M59/66's to CA because they're kept in original condition and the grenade launcher would be a destructive device.
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