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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #81  
Old 11-07-2011, 4:13 PM
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Another bump to say...








9 DAYS & A WAKE UP!!!

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10/27/2011 Open Document Notice of time change for oral argument on 11/17/2011 to 8:30 a.m.. Counsel shall report 45 minutes prior to the session to check in with the clerk. Counsel must complete a new calendar acknowledgment form within 10 days to confirm the change.
Erik.
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  #82  
Old 11-07-2011, 5:05 PM
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Oral argument next week in Denver.

-Gene
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  #83  
Old 11-07-2011, 5:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
I wouldn't involve Rocky Mountain Gun Owners in this. Dudley and I have had some major issues and I wouldn't trust anything he had to say about my case, given what he's said about HR822. He would likely claim that I'm trying to enshrine licensing as a constitutional standard or some other BS (which isn't actually true).
Thanks for letting us know, that is brand new to me. Its a darn shame that we can't just all get along

As a future CO resident I really hoped for more from that organization.
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  #84  
Old 11-07-2011, 9:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Patrick-2 View Post
Basically: "It's the state's fault. Don't blame us. We're outta here."

Go Gray.
Honey Badger don't care.
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  #85  
Old 11-08-2011, 7:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Window_Seat View Post
Another bump to say...








9 DAYS & A WAKE UP!!!



Erik.
With that line, you must be 'prior service'.
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  #86  
Old 11-08-2011, 2:36 PM
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With that line, you must be 'prior service'.
Dude I know right?!! I thought I wouldn't have to hear that and "Commence field day" ever again.... lol.
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  #87  
Old 11-09-2011, 6:36 AM
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Dude I know right?!! I thought I wouldn't have to hear that and "Commence field day" ever again.... lol.
For someone that's 6'3", there was a time, I was so 'short' "I had to look up to see down".
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Monte (Tom Selleck) - 'Monte Walsh'

"It's not always being fast or even accurate that counts, it's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger--and I won't."

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  #88  
Old 11-17-2011, 1:05 PM
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Alright Gray...we're waiting...
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  #89  
Old 11-17-2011, 1:07 PM
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Last I heard was that Gray couldn't attend. However, it sounds like the court will be ordering additional briefing and oral arguments.

-Brandon
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  #90  
Old 11-17-2011, 1:27 PM
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Last I heard was that Gray couldn't attend. However, it sounds like the court will be ordering additional briefing and oral arguments.

-Brandon
Concur with this. I had to work today in Seattle so I could not attend. The above is correct. Until I can get the transcript and/or audio recording, I will refrain from making a full statement at this time. What I will say is that it's good news, but on a slight sidetrack.
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  #91  
Old 11-17-2011, 4:46 PM
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Good news, big or small, is still good. I can't wait for the details.
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  #92  
Old 11-17-2011, 5:45 PM
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Good news, big or small, is still good. I can't wait for the details.
MegaDittos!
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  #93  
Old 11-17-2011, 6:02 PM
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I looked all over for audio, nothing... It says on the CA10 site $30.00 for audio...

Erik.
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  #94  
Old 11-18-2011, 8:53 PM
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I looked all over for audio, nothing... It says on the CA10 site $30.00 for audio...

Erik.
We are working on it.....
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  #95  
Old 11-20-2011, 12:00 PM
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We are working on it.....
I'll have an update on timing to get the oral argument audio later this coming week.

-Gene
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  #96  
Old 12-10-2011, 8:07 PM
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Oral argument is now available here: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/pet...2011-11-17.mp3

-Gene
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  #97  
Old 12-10-2011, 8:15 PM
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Something to think about: Before making commentary, I recommend listening to the ENTIRE argument, not just the one with my lawyer at the beginning.
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  #98  
Old 12-10-2011, 8:45 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
Oral argument is now available here: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/pet...2011-11-17.mp3

-Gene
Defendant Lawyer: "The City and County of Denver did waive their opportunity to participate in this proceeding"

Judge: "WHAT!!?????"

lol.

How did they not know this don't they read the briefs and all of that? The Judges seemed very confused and uninformed on the case.

Also why didn't Gray take the advise of the district court judge and amend his complaint to include the sheriff as a defendant on the reciprocity issue? Is it because the law in unclear on who is actually responsible for issuing permits and recognizing reciprocity agreements?
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  #99  
Old 12-10-2011, 8:57 PM
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Defendant Lawyer: "The City and County of Denver did waive their opportunity to participate in this proceeding"

Judge: "WHAT!!?????"

lol.

How did they not know this don't they read the briefs and all of that? The Judges seemed very confused and uninformed on the case.

Also why didn't Gray take the advise of the district court judge and amend his complaint to include the sheriff as a defendant on the reciprocity issue? Is it because the law in unclear on who is actually responsible for issuing permits and recognizing reciprocity agreements?
Because that's not what the district court judge actually advised here. If we had the opportunity to get into the substantive matters of the case, we would have went over that, but we didn't.

Keep in mind that because of the nature of this case, I will not discuss the future plans of how we'll presenting ourselves in the next argument. Others can speculate all they want because they are not direct parties to the case.

I do, however, believe that they are in fact taking it seriously, and I'm hopeful at the end we'll get a good ruling.

Last edited by Gray Peterson; 12-10-2011 at 9:24 PM..
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  #100  
Old 12-10-2011, 9:33 PM
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Interesting. When I closed my eyes I could swear I was hearing a Mel Brooks movie dialogue. The State said reciprocity is up to the Sheriff, the sheriff/county said the sheriff has nothing to do with it, its up to the state.
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  #101  
Old 12-10-2011, 10:41 PM
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Interesting. When I closed my eyes I could swear I was hearing a Mel Brooks movie dialogue. The State said reciprocity is up to the Sheriff, the sheriff/county said the sheriff has nothing to do with it, its up to the state.
This.

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  #102  
Old 12-11-2011, 4:32 AM
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Did I hear that correctly that the state's attorney is claiming Denver(and any other CO county) can accept/not accept whatever out of state permits they want?????
It seems the state and Denver are really pointing the fingers at each other, and the law is so vague that the judges are trying just to figure out who needs to be sued.

Also, it seems the courts(and state defendants) are taking the Robertson v. Baldwin line about concealed carry much too literally. At least the 10th Circuit did recognize open carry as distinct from concealed carry, and didn't try to lump them together in an attempt to dispose of both like other courts have done.
Any word on when oral arguments are to be continued?

Last edited by press1280; 12-11-2011 at 6:14 AM..
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  #103  
Old 12-11-2011, 12:51 PM
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Did I hear that correctly that the state's attorney is claiming Denver(and any other CO county) can accept/not accept whatever out of state permits they want?????
It seems the state and Denver are really pointing the fingers at each other, and the law is so vague that the judges are trying just to figure out who needs to be sued.
At least we're going to be given the opportunity to reargue the case, if we are to take what they said to the state's counsel in a literal fashion.

Quote:
Also, it seems the courts(and state defendants) are taking the Robertson v. Baldwin line about concealed carry much too literally. At least the 10th Circuit did recognize open carry as distinct from concealed carry, and didn't try to lump them together in an attempt to dispose of both like other courts have done.
Any word on when oral arguments are to be continued?
Not yet. We expect a notice from the court soon.
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  #104  
Old 12-11-2011, 1:33 PM
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I understand that in all this litigation, our stance is not that the right protects open or concealed carry as a form, but that the right protects carry in some form, period.

What I don't understand is why the courts refuse to meet this head-on but continue to think only in terms of concealed carry.

AAR, I congratulate the panel on thinking that this whole thing deserves a second bout at orals and/or supplemental briefing. Those Judges were a very tough audience.
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  #105  
Old 12-11-2011, 2:05 PM
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AAR, I congratulate the panel on thinking that this whole thing deserves a second bout at orals and/or supplemental briefing. Those Judges were a very tough audience.
They were fair in that sense. If you want read the potential "genesis" of their confusion over "Denver open carry ban", I would read the NRA Civil Rights Defense Funds Amicus Curiae brief which may have started all of this. As much as some people think I'm potentially "annoyed" by this slight delay, I'm actually not.
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  #106  
Old 12-11-2011, 5:10 PM
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Any guess as to how much time this adds to the clock for this case?

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk
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  #107  
Old 12-11-2011, 6:17 PM
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It's on my iPod, and listening now!

Edit: The panel was Lucero, Baldock & Hartz?

Erik.

Last edited by Window_Seat; 12-11-2011 at 6:29 PM..
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  #108  
Old 12-11-2011, 6:36 PM
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It's on my iPod, and listening now!

Edit: The panel was Lucero, Baldock & Hartz?

Erik.
Correct.
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  #109  
Old 12-11-2011, 11:23 PM
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Finally got around to listening to the rest of it... very interesting. Poor Mr. Monroe couldn't get a word in edgewise in the beginning, I was starting to feel bad for him.

The panel seemed very intent on discussing the Denver law banning open carry and the reciprocity issue. They really didn't seem to want to discuss the issue of whether Gray should be issued a permit. It will be interesting to see how the arguments develop next time.
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  #110  
Old 12-12-2011, 7:27 AM
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Finally got around to listening to the rest of it... very interesting. Poor Mr. Monroe couldn't get a word in edgewise in the beginning, I was starting to feel bad for him.

The panel seemed very intent on discussing the Denver law banning open carry and the reciprocity issue. They really didn't seem to want to discuss the issue of whether Gray should be issued a permit. It will be interesting to see how the arguments develop next time.
I'm greatly awaiting the next oral argument.
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  #111  
Old 12-12-2011, 7:56 AM
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I'm greatly awaiting the next oral argument.
Gray

I think all of us, who are paying attention, are anxious too...
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  #112  
Old 12-12-2011, 8:24 AM
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Maybe some of us will be in a better position to go, and they will be good because the panel should be better prepared, no?

Erik.
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  #113  
Old 12-12-2011, 9:24 AM
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Maybe some of us will be in a better position to go, and they will be good because the panel should be better prepared, no?

Erik.
Agreed.:thumbup:




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Originally Posted by HowardW56 View Post
Gray

I think all of us, who are paying attention, are anxious too...
You have no idea....
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  #114  
Old 12-12-2011, 9:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
I'm greatly awaiting the next oral argument.
I can only imagine, its been quite a wait.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Window_Seat View Post
Maybe some of us will be in a better position to go, and they will be good because the panel should be better prepared, no?

Erik.
I don't have plans to be out there until April, but it would definitely be neat to get a group there to show support. I would certainly expect the panel to be better prepared, it was a bit surprising to hear how little familiarity they had with the arguments going into this.
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  #115  
Old 12-17-2011, 11:17 PM
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All pertinent Appellate Files are now uploaded to the following location to save you money looking at PACER. Also, for your convenience, the MP3 file of the oral argument is uploaded there for your listening.

Peterson Appeals Folder

Also, I took a few hours tonight to do an unofficial transcription, for the folks here who are more readers than listeners. It is attached to the first post of the thread as "Peterson v. Martinez Unofficial Transcript" in pdf format...
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  #116  
Old 12-18-2011, 12:35 AM
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Thanks for taking the time to put all that together.

I'm anxiously awaiting the scheduling of the next arguments.
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  #117  
Old 12-18-2011, 3:01 AM
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I'm curious about something. If Gray wins, what are the possibilities CO/Denver appeals to SCOTUS? From oral arguments, I got the gist that neither is too interested in putting forth much of an effort and will just let this be binding in the circuit only.
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  #118  
Old 12-18-2011, 10:49 AM
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I'm curious about something. If Gray wins, what are the possibilities CO/Denver appeals to SCOTUS? From oral arguments, I got the gist that neither is too interested in putting forth much of an effort and will just let this be binding in the circuit only.
I'm inclined to believe that this case (as well as the others below in my sig line) is designed & destined to be heard by the Heller five. I just won't predict which one will.

Erik.
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  #119  
Old 12-18-2011, 1:54 PM
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There is a free program called "Transcriber" on Sourceforge that makes doing transcriptions vastly more efficient than just using play and stop on standard computer audio software. The main advantage is that the tab key is used to start and stop the audio, without having to remove your hands from the keyboard. Another huge advantage is that if you go into the settings you can modify the tab key so that when you restart playing, it will restart from a half second or so before where you stopped. This is important because you often inadvertently stop in the middle of a word and have to rewind a bit to understand it. Also, if you press the tab key several times very quickly, it allows you to easily and quickly go back a few seconds to hear something over again. Finally, if you are reading the finished transcript in the transcriber program, you can instantly jump to the part of the audio file where you are reading, without having to fast forward and rewind a bunch to find the spot.

Transcriber makes it so easy to stop and start that you can stop and start every few words and thereby increase your accuracy. If you try to listen to a whole sentence and then type it from memory, your accuracy may be poor, because when you hear a sentence, your brain may sometimes remember what it thinks is the meaning of what it heard rather than what it actually heard. For good accuracy, it is important after typing your transcription, to read it as you listen to it to verify accuracy.
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  #120  
Old 12-18-2011, 2:47 PM
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There is a free program called "Transcriber" on Sourceforge that makes doing transcriptions vastly more efficient...
This sounds astoundingly useful. Thank you!
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