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  #1  
Old 11-15-2006, 11:10 PM
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Angry Les Baer and California

For those California Residents out there thinking of purchasing a Les Baer Pistol, I would like to give you something to think about. Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate that Les Baer supports us by submitting pistols for certification and sales in California and I actually own 2 Premier IIs that I purchased a few years ago. I was actually thinking of purchasing another but my recent experience with the company has caused me to reconsider.

I ordered a stripped AR15 type upper receiver from Les Baer a couple of days ago. Later that same day, I received a phone message saying the company was not sending any AR uppers into California. I emailed back asking why they won't send an item that is legal to own in California to me. The reply was that the owner didn't want to send AR uppers to California because he was afraid of doing anything that might have an impact with his relationship with the Department of Justice. Needless to say I was a little ticked off because other companies will send AR uppers into the state.

I know it's his business and he can do what he wants to. Also, I know other companies, like Sportsman Guide do the same thing, refuse to send perfectly legal items to our state. I no longer do business with companies that do that. I just wanted to put this out so that others who are considering buying products from Les Baer have something to think about. Thanks for listening.
  #2  
Old 11-15-2006, 11:17 PM
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I saw screw him then
  #3  
Old 11-15-2006, 11:56 PM
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He doesn't want to hurt his relationship with the DOJ at the exspense of the relationship he has with his customers and fellow sporting enthusiasts.

I think that pretty much sums up the stance he took. You're either for us or against us, and if you look at it that way, he is VERY against us (and I mean shooters as a whole, not just California). Sad, and maybe slightly exagerated, but still true.
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  #4  
Old 11-16-2006, 2:16 AM
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It's sad to see that a company would be afraid to damage relations with the CA DoJ for selling something legal, but at the same time almost prides itself in selling CA-approved pistols in CA.

That sucks but they can do what they want to do, I guess. They should have at least stated that they wouldn't ship to CA on their site rather than tell you AFTER you've placed your order.


Oh well, you can always go with another company. Good luck.
  #5  
Old 11-16-2006, 2:28 AM
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Call back and see if you can speak to somebody else with a brain. That doesn't sound like you got the right person at Baer, or you got someone young idiot too influenced by the ideas of Ebay. You would not believe how many moronic sheep-like online sellers around the US have taken Ebay's rules as law. Then they distort it into "their realm" of control.

This new society we live in of people practicing petty authority, due to their lack of self-esteem and empty lives, does nothing more than put a damper on us all. Frankly, I am sick of petty authority, sick of some peon life-time hall monitor turned PTA mom or forever-suburban-crossing-guard establishing their urine soak on grounds they don't own.

.
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  #6  
Old 11-16-2006, 5:37 AM
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The 1911 market is his cash cow, why hurt that is his feelings for a couple of upper assemblies that he probably makes no where the same profit.
  #7  
Old 11-16-2006, 6:41 AM
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You would be better off buying A Larue stealth billet upper receiver or the Vltor Mur.....
  #8  
Old 11-16-2006, 7:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevie
The 1911 market is his cash cow, why hurt that is his feelings for a couple of upper assemblies that he probably makes no where the same profit.
Yep.

That story from the rep doesn't sound "stupid" or "uninformed". It sounds like they've actually talked about this and made a decision.

Futher, it might very well be right. DOJ has all sorts of ways to harass businesses if they choose to.

Do any of the current "friendly" OLL companies send pistols in to the DOJ for testing? I can't think of any, but there could be some I've forgotten...
  #9  
Old 11-16-2006, 8:03 AM
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His uppers are over priced tourist traps anyway. You're better off going with White Oak Armament.
  #10  
Old 11-16-2006, 8:07 AM
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Les makes great pistols. You can call and talk to him but I doubt you'll get a different answer. He has the right to sell to whomever he wants. Why is it so hard to understand that a businessman doesn't want to risk his relationship by jumping into something that has yet to be "fought" out in a court of law? It makes good business sense to me.

If you don't like his policies, don't buy his products. I'll keep buying Les Baer since I believe he makes some of the best values in pistols. He was one of the first semi-custom makers to submit guns to Calif. for testing. Having spoken to him a few times on the phone and once face to face, Les is a businessman who knows where his money comes from and I'm sure he has considered his decision.
  #11  
Old 11-16-2006, 8:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickca
The reply was that the owner didn't want to send AR uppers to California because he was afraid of doing anything that might have an impact with his relationship with the Department of Justice.
I guess they don't realize that simply selling firearms to Californians will have an impact on his relationship with the DOJ.

Here's a newsflash - DOJ will never be their friend. DOJ will never do them any favors, grant them exceptions, or let them do something they otherwise wouldn't let them do, just because they refuse to sell off list lowers in the state.
  #12  
Old 11-16-2006, 8:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kruzr
Les makes great pistols. You can call and talk to him but I doubt you'll get a different answer. He has the right to sell to whomever he wants. Why is it so hard to understand that a businessman doesn't want to risk his relationship by jumping into something that has yet to be "fought" out in a court of law? It makes good business sense to me.
If you don't like his policies, don't buy his products. I'll keep buying Les Baer since I believe he makes some of the best values in pistols. He was one of the first semi-custom makers to submit guns to Calif. for testing. Having spoken to him a few times on the phone and once face to face, Les is a businessman who knows where his money comes from and I'm sure he has considered his decision.
Selling of an upper has to be "fought" out in court? The original poster was talking about uppers, not OLLs. If it was a lower I could see LB being a bit nervous, but an upper? Come on...
  #13  
Old 11-16-2006, 8:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gose
Selling of an upper has to be "fought" out in court? The original poster was talking about uppers, not OLLs. If it was a lower I could see LB being a bit nervous, but an upper? Come on...
IMO, (and many companies and FFL's apparently,) the whole issue of black rifles in California and what constitutes an illegal weapon and what doesn't will have to be resolved before many, not just Les, companies will feel comfortable shipping any AR parts here. With so much confusion over the whole issue, is it hard to understand why an out of state vendor wants to steer clear? There are some very large mail order firms that won't even ship a standard A2 stock to Kali.

I'll continue to buy LB products.

Last edited by Kruzr; 11-16-2006 at 8:40 AM..
  #14  
Old 11-16-2006, 9:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoWeird
He doesn't want to hurt his relationship with the DOJ at the exspense of the relationship he has with his customers and fellow sporting enthusiasts.
I own a Premiere II. Very nice firearm. But, I can understand his not wanting to hurt his relationship with the DOJ. I bet all DOJ employees carry Les Baers. Haaa Haaa Haaa.
  #15  
Old 11-16-2006, 9:47 AM
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This is a perfect example why California gun owners are doomed. We are not only at odds with the lawmakers but we are also at odds with ourselves. Here is a perfect opportunity to send a message to a manufacturer that he is either with us or against us.
If he is against us, he can forget selling any of his product line. But we can't even unite on this. He should be getting a barrage of letters stating our grievance. He should be put on notice that there will be repercussions by the way of lost business. People should send him pictures of their .45's explaining this product was purchased instead of his, because of his DOJ policy.

Sure suppliers can refuse to do business with anyone they choose. So can we. Sportsmans Guide, AIM Surplus and many others should have been put in check a long time ago. But the only negative feedback they ever got was from the customer they refused service to. They have no incentive to review their policies, therefore nothing will ever change.

Some may say, even if we stick together, it is only California. Well it's a start. The gay rights movement, the immigration debacle, etc. started off small, and I think all would have to agree have made significant headway. Christ, the gay rights movement has businesses and corporations cutting them checks they want their business so bad. All because they made noise. They refused to be pushed aside. They have purchasing power.
Look what has happened in a short year with OLL's. Gun owners couldn't get the time of day from the DOJ before then. But gun owners have their attention now.

I went through a similar situation as the OP did about 2 years ago with an
ammo supplier that wouldn't sell to me because I was in Orange County. I asked them if there was a law I wasn't aware of forbidding the sale of ammo in Orange County, CA. I was told no, it was a decision that was made in a closed door meeting with no explanation given just the directive not to sell.

When I shared this with gun owners on another forum, I got responses like "they sell it in my county", or "it's their business, they have the right".

So, I thought to myself, How many times have I heard the "when you pry it from my cold dead hands" comment. What a load of crap. Most people won't even participate in a boycott or show up to vote. Two things you do not even have to leave your house for and requires minimal effort. But they have somehow convinced themselves they will shoot it out when the time comes.

Personally, I'd like to try the "pen is mightier than the sword theory" first.

I'm sure Les Baer is a great guy. Nice guys are still capable of poor judgment. It should be brought to his attention.

Gotta Go..I'm freaking out...
  #16  
Old 11-16-2006, 9:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kruzr
IMO, (and many companies and FFL's apparently,) the whole issue of black rifles in California and what constitutes an illegal weapon and what doesn't will have to be resolved before many, not just Les, companies will feel comfortable shipping any AR parts here. With so much confusion over the whole issue, is it hard to understand why an out of state vendor wants to steer clear? There are some very large mail order firms that won't even ship a standard A2 stock to Kali. I'll continue to buy LB products.
It's an UPPER, not restricted by law in any way shape or form. While I realize that is Les Baer's personal right to do business with whomever he chooses, including whole states, most of those posting here seem to be steeping this in a reference to OLLs only.

There are plenty of fully committed, legally owned AR15's here in CA that were in well before Roberti-Roos and SB23. It is completely legal to buy replacements parts for those legal "Pre-CA-Ban" rifles, which can include collapsible stocks, flash-hiders, forward grips, pistols grips and ANY combination thereof. And its completely legal to buy them for OLLs too!! Or to buy them in ANY configuration and use it as broadsword, a decorative lamp-base, or as a 9-iron for midgets, if you so desire.

If such companies further contribute to not make replacement AR15 parts available to CA citizens, they have in their own vetting, created a wholly NEW type of banning of firearms BEYOND the reach of California law.

Ticking off the DOJ is a bullcrap story. The DOJ does not care about replacement AR15 parts - just go to any gun show and there are piles of them. Thousands of other vendors larger than Baer sell and ship to CA daily. It really comes down to a large corporation like Ebay establishing such rules, and many fearful, cowardly online sellers picking that up as a cue of the law - " Wow, if Ebay must be doing this, them there smarty-pants high-priced lawyers they gots there must knowing somethin' ". Meanwhile, they fail to check that it was Steve Westly that installed that mandate at Ebay, influenced by his Anti-2nd Amendment views.

And not all is permanent people; appeal to Baer's logic. Get someone else on the phone. Les once swore up and down that he would NEVER submit his 1911's to be tested by the Anti-gun likes of California, after SB15 passed - that was until that view put a dent in his bank, so he was forced to capitulate. Remember that California, even with ALL of its ridiculous gun laws is STILL the largest buying market of firearms in the nation.

If Baer stands by that idiotic fear fretting, self-loathing, Anti-2nd Amendment position, then look into uppers from ZM Weapons. These rival Baer's uppers anyway, in both performance and quality.

http://www.zmweapons.com

And when it comes to 1911's? The same could be said about Nighthawks and Ed Brown's guns. So this idiocy of not selling AR uppers to CA won't keep me from buying Les Baer's 1911's..........

NIGHTHAWK HAS ALREADY SAW TO THAT!!!



.
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Last edited by CALI-gula; 11-16-2006 at 10:03 AM..
  #17  
Old 11-16-2006, 9:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madjack956
This is a perfect example why California gun owners are doomed. We are not only at odds with the lawmakers but we are also at odds with ourselves. Here is a perfect opportunity to send a message to a manufacturer that he is either with us or against us.

If he is against us, he can forget selling any of his product line. But we can't even unite on this. He should be getting a barrage of letters stating our grievance. He should be put on notice that there will be repercussions by the way of lost business. People should send him pictures of their .45's explaining this product was purchased instead of his, because of his DOJ policy.

RIGHT ON, AND DEAD ON!!!!
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  #18  
Old 11-16-2006, 9:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvtolean
That story from the rep doesn't sound "stupid" or "uninformed". It sounds like they've actually talked about this and made a decision.
Good for them. They are free to make any decision they want. And I applaud them for thinking about it and making a decision, which is already better than just doing random acts hither and fro.

But the decision shows a lack of good judgement. A firearms company (which Les Baer is) needs to be able to evaluate the legal systems of the various places where they do business, and needs to be able to make a risk-reward tradeoff. As gose said, in the case of an AR upper, the risk is none. If they don't know that, they are fools.

If Les Baer shows bad judgement in making business/legal decisions, why should I trust them to have good judgement in making pistols and other firearms? Which is a convoluted way of saying: In that case, I won't buy any Les Baer pistols either.

Fortunately, this is easy for me to say: I'm not in the market for 1911s (don't like their feel), so it's no skin off my back to ignore them. And even if I wanted a high-end 1911, there are many other options (Brown, Wilson, ...)
  #19  
Old 11-16-2006, 10:26 AM
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Shows you how much Les Baer knows.

CA DOJ *cannot* refuse to certify a handgun for sale if (1) the independent test lab shows it passes the drop test, (2) it has the requisite new features (mag disco, LCI, etc.) appropriate for the time of filing, and (3) filing fees are paid.

If they refuse to certify a gun for sale when it passes the test and fees are proffered, he's got a very nice case against the DOJ - including actions against the individual staff members that made such a 'political' decision.

If they safety lab test gets 'gamed', he can take action against them.
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  #20  
Old 11-16-2006, 10:34 AM
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Les Baer is out to make money.

"Taking action" costs money.

Right or wrong, the route he chose is what he deems most profitable.
  #21  
Old 11-16-2006, 10:56 AM
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For those who disagree with a business's policies I certainly condone sending letters and voting with your dollars. If LBC determines that this policy is hurting his market and his bottom line, I'm sure he will reconsider. It's business, not politics.
  #22  
Old 11-16-2006, 1:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvtolean
Les Baer is out to make money.

"Taking action" costs money.

Right or wrong, the route he chose is what he deems most profitable.

Hmmm... kind of like the Tomkins PLC owned Smith & Wesson of old? They too chose what they deemed "most profitable". Recall what happened to them when they installed certain "policies" to appease the government? Boycotts ensued, enough to drive them out of the business.

They too had set out to "make money" and all they did was go bankrupt, until they were forced to sell the company to Saf-T-Hammer for $15 Million dollars, and just to eschew their debts of over twice that much. (Tomkins PLC paid $112 Million for S&W in 1987 !!!).

That's a really odd concept of "profitable" and proof that such boycotts do work.

That was the perfect boycott - Americans told Tomkins "We don't like you, who you are, or what you represent, nor do we appreciate how you are running one of OUR oldest companies, so get lost, or else" and under the best case scenario, the company not only survived by changing owners, but has gone on to being one of the most profitable periods in Smith's history with the fastest growth in the shortest amount of time, and the company was saved entirely, rather than destroyed.

Could the same be said about the boycott against Colt? Not so sure - except for their M4 contract, they had come within a breath away from being defunct, due to ex-CEO Ron Stewart's comments in support of a federal permit scheme to buy and own a gun. This was compounded by Donald Zilkha (Zilkha & Company - owners) having connections to the aggressively Anti-2nd Amendment Democratic party at the time, further fanning the boycott flames. The boycott hit profits hard enough to force the resignation of Stewart.

And what is Colt today? Marginal, and the progress of their return can be marked by the speed of a paralyzed garden slug.


Les Baer should take notes.

.
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Last edited by CALI-gula; 11-16-2006 at 2:19 PM..
  #23  
Old 11-16-2006, 2:19 PM
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No, not like that.

He won't sell ARs, a small part of his biz, to a very small market of maybe 100,00 people in Cali, where the situation is a mix of byzantine laws he doesn't want to get stuck in. Big deal.

Why is everyone so worked up about this?

Sheeze, how many other semi-custom pistol makers even bother to certify for Cali?

How's that STI working out for you?

You guys are WAY too harsh on Baer IMO.

This is OUR fault for letting the politicians take it here, not out of state businesses.
  #24  
Old 11-16-2006, 2:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvtolean
No, not like that. He won't sell ARs, a small part of his biz, to a very small market of maybe 100,00 people in Cali, where the situation is a mix of byzantine laws he doesn't want to get stuck in. Big deal. Why is everyone so worked up about this?

Sheeze, how many other semi-custom pistol makers even bother to certify for Cali?

How's that STI working out for you?

You guys are WAY too harsh on Baer IMO. This is OUR fault for letting the politicians take it here, not out of state businesses.
HAH! STI likely knows they couldn't get a gun to pass the CA test! I have never seen so many samples of a maker's "custom" 1911 have so many failure-to-feeds and/or failure-to-extracts, even AFTER 500 or so rounds. There was even an article in one of the magazines a few months back reporting how poorly one of the high-end STI models performed on reliability issues, including only having moderate accuracy with many brands of ammunition.

Les Baer has some real competition now, and he had better pay attention to his choices.

.
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1934 National Duolian Steel Resonator Guitar: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1172113

Last edited by CALI-gula; 11-16-2006 at 2:27 PM..
  #25  
Old 11-16-2006, 2:31 PM
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If you really want the upper just have Cold War shooters order you one! Then have it transferred to your FFL. You might have to pay a little more, but if you really want it, who cares!
  #26  
Old 11-16-2006, 2:32 PM
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I don't think most pistol owners in Cali own AWs, or tread in the currently tenuous OLL zone.

That is my point for thinking the number of people that would care is small.

Agreed, he has plenty of competition.
  #27  
Old 11-16-2006, 2:51 PM
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STI had an approved model on the list, but they wouldn't sell it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CALI-gula
HAH! STI likely knows they couldn't get a gun to pass the CA test!
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  #28  
Old 11-16-2006, 3:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvtolean
I don't think most pistol owners in Cali own AWs, or tread in the currently tenuous OLL zone.

That is my point for thinking the number of people that would care is small.

Agreed, he has plenty of competition.
Maybe not, But I personally can't think of another sidearm that compliments an AR like a 1911. There may be others who share that opinion.

Regardless if the number is big or small, it's the principal.

Now, I am probably the dimmest thinking member of this forum, but it would seem to me that there are not too many things worth having in this world that come to you without a fight or at least sticking your neck out a little. Les Baer needs to know he would be better off standing with us than with the DOJ. I mean this guy jumped ship before they even approached him.

I'm just so glad that Coldwar Shooters, Ten Percent and the others didn't have Les Baers outlook this past year. Where would we all be now if they stuck their heads in the sand?
  #29  
Old 11-16-2006, 3:33 PM
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HAH! STI likely knows they couldn't get a gun to pass the CA test! I have never seen so many samples of a maker's "custom" 1911 have so many failure-to-feeds and/or failure-to-extracts, even AFTER 500 or so rounds. There was even an article in one of the magazines a few months back reporting how poorly one of the high-end STI models performed on reliability issues, including only having moderate accuracy with many brands of ammunition.

Les Baer has some real competition now, and he had better pay attention to his choices.

.
STI is a company that California gun owners absolutely should boycott. They had approved guns on the list when they decided not to ship any guns to California! I talked to them about this at the SHOT show right after Ed Brown had the KC approved and he told me that he sold more KC's in California that first year than combined in the rest of the country. I mentioned this to them and they said.....well our owner thinks the voters should vote out the people making the laws out there before he sells again.

How about Rock River........they refuse to submit their guns for testing even though they know they would sell. When I asked them, they said, they don't want any potential liability. Seems strange for a company who has done quite well in the past year in California.

Considering what happened to swimmingpoolguy, what if someone bought an upper from LBC and built a totally illegal AR and his neighbor or parents call it in. If LBC gets a call from one of the headline grabbing 58 DA's with political aspirations, it costs him time and most likely money. Any good business would immediately consult with their attorney on a matter like that. Why does he need the hassle? I'm sure if he felt the market was great enough to offset his potential risk, they would be available here.

Baer has always had that competition across the country and seems to hold his own. Having shot about every semi-custom there is (including NH's) and owning a few, I'll pick a Baer for accuracy every time. Finish and looks go to Brown, IMO.

I won't hold it against him but everyone is entitled to their opinions and to spend their money where they choose.
  #30  
Old 11-16-2006, 3:44 PM
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Considering what happened to swimmingpoolguy, what if someone bought an upper from LBC and built a totally illegal AR and his neighbor or parents call it in. If LBC gets a call from one of the headline grabbing 58 DA's with political aspirations, it costs him time and most likely money. Any good business would immediately consult with their attorney on a matter like that. Why does he need the hassle? I'm sure if he felt the market was great enough to offset his potential risk, they would be available here.

Baer has always had that competition across the country and seems to hold his own. Having shot about every semi-custom there is (including NH's) and owning a few, I'll pick a Baer for accuracy every time. Finish and looks go to Brown, IMO.

I won't hold it against him but everyone is entitled to their opinions and to spend their money where they choose.
Exactly.

I perceive Baer to be a good businessman to thrive in the competitive marketplace of 1911s. I own and love 1911s BTW.

He wouldn't be around in the firearms industry if he didn't understand how to manage risk and reward to his biz.

He simply does not see the reward for the risk he feels he'd take.

I guess I'm just not emotional about such things, I see it as a simple business decision. He doesn't see anything worth fighting for. His business is bigger, less agile, and much more open to liability suits.

No offense made to 10% or CWS, both of whom I have had great service from, briefly met and like personally, and spent more money with than Baer and intend to continue to in the future, but their businesses are the small, agile type to whom niche markets matter, and can be better serviced by, and thus are worth the risk.

To Baer, the volume of the few niche in Cali who wish to purchase ARs from him is much smaller than the big business he does around the country.

I think we should all be happy he gets his pistols certified. I am, and I drool on his guns all the time. But to be honest, if I wanted to drop as much as he asks on a 1911, I'd probably buy an entry 1911 and have it built custom to my exact spec.

Last edited by luvtolean; 11-16-2006 at 3:47 PM..
  #31  
Old 11-16-2006, 5:17 PM
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I am happy that Baer has a nice variety of 1911's certified in CA, and I understand that he is resitant to get involved in the whole AR mess in this state. I own a Baer 1911, and will continue to support him.

As a 1911 lover and one who only purchases high-end 1911's, I am very happy with Baer's continued presence in California. I feel fortunate that, despite our ridiculous laws, companies like Baer, Brown, Wilson, Nighthawk, and Springfield Custom have given us a fair amount of options for higher end 1911's. To show my support, I am working on purchasing 1911's from each of these fine groups of folks

Les Baer is not the enemy, guys. Trying to harm his company does us all a great disservice, as he has worked to get many of his 1911's certified in CA, and has been around for shooters longer than most of us have been shooting. Rather than spread negativity directed at one of the good guys, if you need AR-15 related stuff, just support 10 Percent, CWS, Rainier, Bravo Company, Eagle, Denny's, or one of the many other industry partners who are willing to help us out here in CA.
  #32  
Old 11-16-2006, 5:43 PM
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When you don't even take the time to find out what is legal, you either have no brains or no balls. I won't be doing business with somone in either case.

I can understand not wanting to get involved in the AR lower market. I can understand being timid and wanting to find out what the deal is in California before shipping. I cannot understand the mentality of not selling a product to someone because it might someday become illegal. What I cannot understand is a gun manufacturer going above and beyond what is legally required, to in fact institute their own form of gun control.

I'll be sending a letter to Les along with a picture of my new Nighthawk Talon. Why anyone would support Fulton Armory or Les Baer when they don't have any desire to help us assert our rights is beyond me.
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Old 11-16-2006, 6:12 PM
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What is the problem with AIM Surplus?
  #34  
Old 11-16-2006, 6:21 PM
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What is the problem with AIM Surplus?
They have always shipped ammo to me without any issues. I love AIM, so I haven't heard of any problems.
  #35  
Old 11-16-2006, 10:19 PM
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They have always shipped ammo to me without any issues. I love AIM, so I haven't heard of any problems.
Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned that they avoid buying from AIM but gave no exact reason for that statement. I have heard from an FFL that AIM is anti-California in some way but he gave no specifics other than they will not sell OLL's to California.
  #36  
Old 11-16-2006, 10:48 PM
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Why anyone would support Fulton Armory or Les Baer when they don't have any desire to help us assert our rights is beyond me.
I also have Ruger on my list of companies not to buy from.
  #37  
Old 11-17-2006, 4:19 AM
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Originally Posted by zefflyn
I guess they don't realize that simply selling firearms to Californians will have an impact on his relationship with the DOJ.

Here's a newsflash - DOJ will never be their friend. DOJ will never do them any favors, grant them exceptions, or let them do something they otherwise wouldn't let them do, just because they refuse to sell off list lowers in the state.

Spot on mate!

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  #38  
Old 11-17-2006, 1:24 PM
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Must be new. I asked about ordering an upper about 3 months ago, and they said, 'fine'. I even asked if I could send my fixed mag lower for fitting and test firing, and they said, 'fine'. I ended up not ordering it. Glad I didn't... they were quoting a three month wait.
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  #39  
Old 11-17-2006, 1:59 PM
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I also have Ruger on my list of companies not to buy from.
Bill Ruger is dead and his family has sold their interest in the firearms business. Times change.
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  #40  
Old 11-17-2006, 2:12 PM
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Originally Posted by luvtolean
I guess I'm just not emotional about such things, I see it as a simple business decision. He doesn't see anything worth fighting for. His business is bigger, less agile, and much more open to liability suits.

No offense made to 10% or CWS, both of whom I have had great service from, briefly met and like personally, and spent more money with than Baer and intend to continue to in the future, but their businesses are the small, agile type to whom niche markets matter, and can be better serviced by, and thus are worth the risk.

To Baer, the volume of the few niche in Cali who wish to purchase ARs from him is much smaller than the big business he does around the country.
Supporting California has only HELPED smaller companies like Barrett, even when the state has banned most of the firearms Ronnie Barrett makes from being sold here. His resolve to put a foot against the Anti-2nd Amendment measures established by California, even travelling here on occasion to speak at various hearings and give testimony in defense of our rights, has HELPED his business, not just in CA but throughout all of the United States and abroad.

This stance from Baer is just a topping as to why I would not buy any Baer 1911 products anymore. Yes, I own a Premiere and a Thunder Ranch. However, Nighthawk and Ed Brown already have Baer beat on reliability and performance anyway.

I AM a 1911 fan and have plenty of money to spend on them. If I were standing at my dealer, who sells and stocks 1911s from ALL THREE of the above, my thoughts will now harken back to this thread, and I will be inclined to pass over the Baer and not even consider it as an option, where before I might have done so, at least had the dealer pull it out of the case to view changes or new models.

Now, I won't even look at a Baer - I'll go straight for another Nighthawk, and consider something from Ed Brown as the other choice. Now I'll look at a Wilson before considering something from Baer.

.
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