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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 02-11-2015, 12:03 PM
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Default Firearms in Backpacks (People v Wade, CA 2nd App, 2/2015) Aff. 5/9/16 by CA Sup Ct

Yesterday, the California Courts of Appeal published a case decision where a defendant had been arrested for a felony violation of carrying a loaded firearm on his person. The firearm had been contained within his backpack.

The trial court had previously dismissed the charge based on an earlier case, People v Pellecer, which held that a knife, carried in a backpack, was not carried concealed upon the person in violation of former Penal Code section 12020.

The Appellate Court found distinctions between its case and the Pellecer case and reinstated the felony charges.

Refer to People v Wade.
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Old 02-11-2015, 12:13 PM
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Duh. Loaded firearm concealed. Did that come as a surprise. If in backpack must be unloaded and ammo may be in same backpack must be locked (container). If not registered to defendant then it is a felony,. Some individuals lack the common sense to pour sand out of their boots.
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Old 02-11-2015, 12:19 PM
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http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/B255894.PDF
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Old 02-11-2015, 12:21 PM
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what if it was in a wheelbarrow would it be upon the person? or let the dog carry it
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Old 02-11-2015, 12:22 PM
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Hmmm, I had hopes at the time the knife case came out that it would end up applying to firearms.
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Old 02-11-2015, 12:32 PM
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What does a wheelbarrow and carrying by yourself with out benefit of any any transportation device not carried solely by the individual have in common.?
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Old 02-11-2015, 12:49 PM
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Wheelbarrow ??????????????
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Old 02-11-2015, 3:48 PM
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I still like the dog one though, load up your dogs tactical vest with a 15rd 9mm vp9 and have them carry it around, what could go wrong?
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Old 02-11-2015, 3:51 PM
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Quote:
what if it was in a wheelbarrow would it be upon the person? or let the dog carry it
CCC (Canine Concealed Carry). I like it.

Last edited by glockman19; 02-12-2015 at 6:41 AM..
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Old 02-11-2015, 4:17 PM
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Notably, Pellecer was NOT carrying the bag with the knife, while Wade was carrying (wearing) the backpack. Not that either is a very good idea, with a firearm.
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Old 02-11-2015, 7:06 PM
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Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
Duh. Loaded firearm concealed. Did that come as a surprise. If in backpack must be unloaded and ammo may be in same backpack must be locked (container). If not registered to defendant then it is a felony,. Some individuals lack the common sense to pour sand out of their boots.
Site statute where ammo required to be in locked container.
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Old 02-11-2015, 7:45 PM
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Old 02-11-2015, 8:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M1A Rifleman View Post
Site statute where ammo required to be in locked container.
I believe he means that the backpack itself must be a locked container, as it is being used to transport the pistol.
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Old 02-11-2015, 9:07 PM
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From the first few lines of the link it does make a very concerning opinion regarding carrying the firearm in the backpack constitutes carrying on the person.

I don't hold this to be true and hope for clarification.

If that were the case wouldn't carrying a firearm unloaded in a locked backpack .. still be considered carrying a concealed firearm? Loaded or not its still against the law to carry a firearm concealed upon the person withiut a permit.
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Old 02-11-2015, 9:17 PM
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For those who have a better understanding about knife law, help me out:
Can a fixed blade knife over, say, 8" long be transported inside a backpack sitting on the passenger seat of an occupied vehicle? If not legally, can it be in that condition in the vehicle's trunk?
Can a fixed blade knife (in a sheath) be fastened on the outside of a backpack on a passenger seat?
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Old 02-11-2015, 9:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninety View Post
If that were the case wouldn't carrying a firearm unloaded in a locked backpack .. still be considered carrying a concealed firearm? Loaded or not its still against the law to carry a firearm concealed upon the person withiut a permit.
I believe that's exactly why a locked container is an exemption.
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Old 02-12-2015, 8:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninety View Post
From the first few lines of the link it does make a very concerning opinion regarding carrying the firearm in the backpack constitutes carrying on the person.

I don't hold this to be true and hope for clarification.

If that were the case wouldn't carrying a firearm unloaded in a locked backpack .. still be considered carrying a concealed firearm? Loaded or not its still against the law to carry a firearm concealed upon the person withiut a permit.
An unloaded firearm carried in a locked container is not considered to be concealed. So if it was in a locking compartment in the backpack you'd be good to go. Otherwise how else would one be able to move a firearm from their house to the car, or the car into the range etc?
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  #18  
Old 02-12-2015, 9:18 AM
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I said ammo may be in locked container not must be another rocket scientist.
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  #19  
Old 02-12-2015, 9:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshTapCoke View Post
I believe that's exactly why a locked container is an exemption.
Except that on foot, you have destination requirements. In a car (for instance) a locked container with unloaded gun is legal.

Assuming backpackers walking around with a handgun in a locked case, inside the backpack would violate the law. Tricky question....
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Old 02-12-2015, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
I said ammo may be in locked container not must be another rocket scientist.
If you work on not leaving words out of the sentence, you may be better understood.
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  #21  
Old 02-12-2015, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Oceanbob View Post
Except that on foot, you have destination requirements. In a car (for instance) a locked container with unloaded gun is legal.

Assuming backpackers walking around with a handgun in a locked case, inside the backpack would violate the law. Tricky question....
What about on a bicycle?
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  #22  
Old 02-12-2015, 12:34 PM
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What about on a bicycle?
IIRC the Vehicle Code says a bicycle is a vehicle, but who knows how it would be interpreted. I'd assume destination requirements would apply.
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Old 02-12-2015, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umd View Post
What about on a bicycle?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tincon View Post
IIRC the Vehicle Code says a bicycle is a vehicle, but who knows how it would be interpreted. I'd assume destination requirements would apply.
Almost certainly: the PC exempts IN a MOTOR vehicle - 25610 (a)
Quote:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked
in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle.
There are motorized bicycles, but a bicycle generally has no 'within'.
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Old 02-12-2015, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Almost certainly: the PC exempts IN a MOTOR vehicle - 25610 (a)There are motorized bicycles, but a bicycle generally has no 'within'.
What are the destination requirements? To-and-from range or gun store ok?

Edit: I read http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Tr...T_in_a_vehicle

I'm curious about 25540 and ranges that are just public places where shooting is allowed

Quote:
Section 25400 does not apply to, or affect, the
transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or
coming directly from, a target range, which holds a regulatory or
business license, for the purposes of practicing shooting at targets
with that firearm at that target range

Last edited by umd; 02-12-2015 at 1:19 PM..
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Old 02-12-2015, 1:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tincon View Post
IIRC the Vehicle Code says a bicycle is a vehicle, but who knows how it would be interpreted. I'd assume destination requirements would apply.
Tincon,

You're recalling correctly. Vehicle Code section 21200(a) effectively makes a bicycle a "motor vehicle", but it only extends to the Division 11 (Rules of the Road) portion of the Vehicle Code.

I don't know of any statute that would apply VC 21200(a) to the Penal Code.
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Old 02-12-2015, 1:29 PM
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The only thing that stops a bad guy with a wheelbarrow full of guns is a good guy with a wheelbarrow full of guns.

Stand up for our wheelbarrow rights!


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Old 02-12-2015, 1:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
An unloaded firearm carried in a locked container is not considered to be concealed. So if it was in a locking compartment in the backpack you'd be good to go. Otherwise how else would one be able to move a firearm from their house to the car, or the car into the range etc?
^^^THIS^^^

I carry an unloaded firearm in a locked Allen Soft case with locking zipper in a backpack all the time Legally.
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Old 02-12-2015, 1:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glockman19 View Post
^^^THIS^^^

I carry an unloaded firearm in a locked Allen Soft case with locking zipper in a backpack all the time Legally.
That's only legal for a US Citizen to/from/in a motor vehicle. Beyond those fairly narrow circumstances there are destination requirements.
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Old 02-12-2015, 1:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
That's only legal for a US Citizen to/from/in a motor vehicle. Beyond those fairly narrow circumstances there are destination requirements.
NO... I don't think so. The legal way to transport any firearm that can be concealed is unloaded and in a locked case. Please cite the code that says there are destination requirements?
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Old 02-12-2015, 1:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
That's only legal for a US Citizen to/from/in a motor vehicle. Beyond those fairly narrow circumstances there are destination requirements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by glockman19 View Post
NO... I don't think so. The legal way to transport any firearm that can be concealed is unloaded and in a locked case. Please cite the code that says there are destination requirements?
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transporting

NOT in a vehicle - still requires unloaded, locked case, but see PC 25505 and following for 'authorized' destinations.
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Old 02-12-2015, 2:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glockman19 View Post
NO... I don't think so. The legal way to transport any firearm that can be concealed is unloaded and in a locked case. Please cite the code that says there are destination requirements?
Conditional Exemptions to 25400 (illegal concealed carry) below

ARTICLE 3. Conditional Exemptions [25505 - 25595]
( Article 3 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )

25505.
In order for a firearm to be exempted under this article, while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded and kept in a locked container, and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.
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Old 02-12-2015, 2:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transporting

NOT in a vehicle - still requires unloaded, locked case, but see PC 25505 and following for 'authorized' destinations.
25595. This article does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
carrying or transportation of any handgun in accordance with the
provisions listed in Section 16580. 16850 only describes a locked case.

The way I read it as long as it's I a locked case and unloaded this article 25505 et al it is not prohibited.

So Unloaded Locked Concealed Carry is unlawful? or only allowed for Authorized destinations? Sounds like a complete infringement on to bear. Even in the legally prescribed manner.
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Old 02-13-2015, 1:57 PM
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sounds doable to me as long as you go point a to b. and point b is a place where you can lawfully posess a firearm. Such as a friends house who is gun friendly.... a shooting range, home.... etc.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Ammo does not need to be in a locked container to clarify. It *can* be in the same locked container as the firearm provided ammunition doesnt make it into the firearm while transporting.
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Old 02-13-2015, 2:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glockman19 View Post
25595. This article does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
carrying or transportation of any handgun in accordance with the
provisions listed in Section 16580. 16850 only describes a locked case.

The way I read it as long as it's I a locked case and unloaded this article 25505 et al it is not prohibited.

So Unloaded Locked Concealed Carry is unlawful? or only allowed for Authorized destinations? Sounds like a complete infringement on to bear. Even in the legally prescribed manner.
25595 is an exception from the "article" (25400). In order for any exemption to apply, it must meet the requirements of 25505.

Quote:
25505. In order for a firearm to be exempted under this article,
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded and kept in a locked container, and the course of travel
shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as
are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.
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Old 02-13-2015, 2:43 PM
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To better understand this, look at 25610:

Quote:
25610. (a) A citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years
who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is
not prohibited by state or federal law from possessing,
receiving, owning, or purchasing a firearm, from transporting
or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of
being concealed upon the person, provided that the following
applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked
in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from
any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying
the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked
container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit
the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the
person in accordance with the provisions listed in Section
16580
.
"Otherwise lawful" are the key words. They aren't giving a narrow exemption followed by a much larger one that would swallow it up. They are simply preserving the narrow exemptions provided for elsewhere.
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Old 02-13-2015, 5:33 PM
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For years I would carry my pistol in a locked case in my backpack swing out through the hills on my motorcycle then have lunch with a view and stop at the range on the last leg. A joy in my life for years. A good part of a day in the sea breeze and the pines. Then one day as I'm unpacking my bag on the bench at the pistol range and a park ranger walks up and tells me he could arrest me. I figure he just doesn't like where I parked my bike. No your concealed caring a hand gun. My ammo was in a locked ammo can in a tail bag on the bike. This conversation went on for 20 min and an off duty CHP officer got involved and the very young park employee let me go with a verbal warning. I have not had my ride and shoot in three years and that is my interest in this post. I still feel not clear what is OK. Would stopping for lunch be unreasonable before or after the range? Was my carry unlawful? Am I restricted in my choice of vehicle even on a beautiful day. Did the county park employee step outside his box just a tad at the county run range? Was the CHP wrong in recommending I get a pass? My day was flushed down a hole. I just packed up and didn't go back for a year. I read this with a good deal of interest.

..MJ..
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Old 02-13-2015, 6:01 PM
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I think your question has been answered in this thread.
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Old 02-13-2015, 6:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tincon View Post
I think your question has been answered in this thread.
I actually don't think it has. At least not for my question which is similar. The range I go to doesn't have any kind of license or permit to operate, it's just a place where shooting is allowed by the Forrest service. Is that considered a "regulatory license" to be covered by 25540, or is allowed by some other section?

Edit: I guess in his case it's a motor vehicle but it's not "inside" because it was in his backpack so it's still not clear.

Last edited by umd; 02-13-2015 at 6:25 PM..
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Old 02-13-2015, 6:31 PM
Michael Ehline's Avatar
Michael Ehline Michael Ehline is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untamed1972 View Post
An unloaded firearm carried in a locked container is not considered to be concealed. So if it was in a locking compartment in the backpack you'd be good to go. Otherwise how else would one be able to move a firearm from their house to the car, or the car into the range etc?
Ehemmm. You left out that it is only "legal" for purposes of taking it to and from your home, or place of storage to a car, for example, to transport to a place it is "legal" to use. Now, lawful, yes, I agree it is always lawful under the "Laws of Nature and or Nature's God." But legal, no way. Our country is no longer a Republic, ever since Lincoln suspended the Constitution. That was all she wrote. RIGHTS are now "privileges." Ask any leftist judge, law professor or public school teacher.
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Old 02-13-2015, 7:03 PM
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Helmut Shmacher Space Chimp Helmut Shmacher Space Chimp is offline
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So if you carry the pistol unloaded with a trigger lock in a locked hard case you are pretty much alright then?
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